is it just me?

msmitht

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I do not like non/light contact schools. I do not care for schools that follow the latest fad. Instructors that learn only from videos/short seminars (that give instructors certs, lol) should be exposed as frauds. Same goes for those who try to be a "jack of all trades".
Teach what you know. Admit when you don't have the answers. Learn from those who do.
I have spent 30 years in tkd and 9 in bjj. Seen more than my fair share. All styles are different. Most have something to offer, even the ata. Their ma is lousy and most agree that a bb should not be earned in 18 months, but what a business model!
Light contact should only be for beginners, young children and seniors. We teach martial arts! Not knitting! They can get confidence from soccer and should be getting basic discipline at home. Non contact is for tai chi and tae bo/aerobics.
Ok, rant over. Don't honestly care if readers agree or disagree. My mind is firm on this matter.
 

Bruno@MT

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Don't honestly care if readers agree or disagree. My mind is firm on this matter.

Then there isn't much point in discussing it, is there? :)

Iaido doesn't have sparring at all, but that didn't stop this 70+ year old man from completely owning the guy who is twice his size, half his age and used to full contact competition.
Just because a system does not contain free form sparring does not mean that there is no pressure testing or that the teaching methods are invalid.

[yt]83Xq2p0E07o[/yt]
 
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msmitht

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Lol. My reference was to empty hand striking arts. Kendo, kumdo and fencing are contact sword arts. My grandfather won an olympic gold in fencing. I may be wrong but isn't Iaido about drawing the sword(while cutting)?this takes tchnique, timing and skill. Would not be able to really test without killing or maiming someone.
To you and others what I said might be flawed. It depends on your point of view. I like contact martial arts. I would not poke fun at you for disagreeing or even take offense to your last statement. Why should I?
 
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msmitht

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Btw, I was not making/presenting an arguement. I was making a statement:)
 

DMcHenry

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I agree there should be contact, but for safety we aren't trying to hurt each other. I did have a couple of students from an ATA split off school. When they sparred, they wore full equipment - chest protectors and everything but made absolutely NO contact. (??) I think that is a disservice to them.

They were both about to make black belt with there former school. While working with the lady, I showed her a sweep that was in her form, being careful and (I thought) gentle. She thought I went too hard on her. (they did the sweep and takedown without even touching their partners) I don't just fall down for anybody - they have to take me down, and she got very angry and frustrated she couldn't sweep me. She finally said she had to get mad and we clumsily both fell over.

Without them ever making ANY contact, she "thought" she could fight, etc. but in fact had no clue. I believe there needs to be some contact in a contact sport. The first time she gets hit she will freak out. Things she thinks will work won't work at all.

I seldom spar and believe in control when I do, but I do like contact. I've had my bell rung a couple of times and have delivered a knockout (I was trying to control my kick it just stopped solid against his head) and black eyes. I've even received a black eye from a little girl practicing for a demo, as I like even choreographed techniques to look real and have light to moderate (controled) contact.
 

granfire

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I don't mind light contact. It's relaive anyhow. But most of us have a day job and responsibilities.

I don't agree with no-contact, or no sparring. It ain't TaeBo...
But do not discount old people. One lady I trained with was 61 years old when she started. With Arthritis, bad hips and all the works, she might have bot been able to get her side kicks up, her front ans crescents could still get you in the chin, and you'd better stay out of arms reach because she packed a pretty good punch (and lots of unresolved issues that finally broke free)

I don't care much for the simplified styles either that seem to prefer one or two kicks and value power more than technique or finesse. As we get older we lose some of the quickness, but we get more divious...
 
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msmitht

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I don't mind light contact. It's relaive anyhow. But most of us have a day job and responsibilities.

I don't agree with no-contact, or no sparring. It ain't TaeBo...
But do not discount old people. One lady I trained with was 61 years old when she started. With Arthritis, bad hips and all the works, she might have bot been able to get her side kicks up, her front ans crescents could still get you in the chin, and you'd better stay out of arms reach because she packed a pretty good punch (and lots of unresolved issues that finally broke free)

I don't care much for the simplified styles either that seem to prefer one or two kicks and value power more than technique or finesse. As we get older we lose some of the quickness, but we get more divious...

Would never "discount" older students. They usualy do not heal as fast so good saftey equip is needed. Light to med contact up to a certain age is acceptable as I said b4.
"Never underestimate someone older, respect them"
 

d1jinx

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I agree 100%. How can one truly learn TKD without any contact?

I once went to check out this TKD school ( i was new to the area and looking for a spot to train) and I watched a "sparring" class. Get this, It was TKD, they had to wear the HOGU, HEADGEAR, CUP, MOUTHGUARD, SHIN, ELBOW, KNEE, HAND AND FEET pads. AND IT WAS LIGHT to NO CONTACT Point sparring. Are you serious???? I laughed at the owner/instructor and asked him what the hell was he thinking... he said "Insurance"... needless to say I kept it moving.
 

Touch Of Death

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I do not like non/light contact schools. I do not care for schools that follow the latest fad. Instructors that learn only from videos/short seminars (that give instructors certs, lol) should be exposed as frauds. Same goes for those who try to be a "jack of all trades".
Teach what you know. Admit when you don't have the answers. Learn from those who do.
I have spent 30 years in tkd and 9 in bjj. Seen more than my fair share. All styles are different. Most have something to offer, even the ata. Their ma is lousy and most agree that a bb should not be earned in 18 months, but what a business model!
Light contact should only be for beginners, young children and seniors. We teach martial arts! Not knitting! They can get confidence from soccer and should be getting basic discipline at home. Non contact is for tai chi and tae bo/aerobics.
Ok, rant over. Don't honestly care if readers agree or disagree. My mind is firm on this matter.
That is how Krav Maga is taught, mostly, in the US. You attend a seminar for certification. It helps if you already know what you are doing; however, I think we have a system, on our hands, that will clearly rival the popularity of TKD. I would like to counter your argument about contact. I think full contact is a touchy subject. Children and adults should be able to actually learn how to move before avoiding concussions in the ring. A good teacher is key.
Sean
 
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msmitht

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That is how Krav Maga is taught, mostly, in the US. You attend a seminar for certification. It helps if you already know what you are doing; however, I think we have a system, on our hands, that will clearly rival the popularity of TKD. I would like to counter your argument about contact. I think full contact is a touchy subject. Children and adults should be able to actually learn how to move before avoiding concussions in the ring. A good teacher is key.
Sean

Note that I did say that light contact is ok for beginners. A good teacher will be able to help students make the transition from light contact to medium...etc.
As for krav maga rivaling the popularity of tkd, LOL! We have 70 milloin practitioners on the planet! Not all are good, not all are bad. Not all practice even medium contact. But your reference was about popularity:)
How much can you honestly take away from a 2, 4 or 8 hour seminar? Even if trained, it is difficult to retain knowlege to the point of being able to teach it to others without continious repitition.
 

Balrog

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All styles are different. Most have something to offer, even the ata. Their ma is lousy and most agree that a bb should not be earned in 18 months, but what a business model!
...
Ok, rant over. Don't honestly care if readers agree or disagree. My mind is firm on this matter.
Except that you owe a large apology to the ATA instructors who don't award bb in 18 months and who stress proper technique. You targeted the few and used that brush to paint the many. That's like saying all teenagers are drug addicts because some of them get busted for possession.
 
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msmitht

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While I have never seen the "few" that barog mentioned, they must exist somewhere. If they stress good technique, medium to full contact for advanced students and take the proper time to advance then......sorry if I offended. Every ata school that I have seen is weak in those area's. Maybe balrogs school is different.
 

Daniel Sullivan

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You have a lot of unrelated issues here, though minus the video/seminar issue, they do tend to converge in many commercial schools.

I do not like non/light contact schools.
So long as the school is billing their program as a self improvement/sport (so long as the sport mandates light contact)/fitness program/after school activity (which is what most commercial schools are), then the contact level is unimportant.

If the school is billing themselves as a self defense school or an MMA school, then light or no contact goes against the stated purpose of the school.

So long as the school is up front about what they are offering, this simply comes down to a question of you being the wrong customer for the product being offered.

Non/light contact works well for large commercial schools because when you get right down to it, most people in the states who take a martial art do so for self improvement/fitness/after school activity and are not looking to be teh deadly or to get banged up. Many want to simply have more confidence in themselves.

I do not care for schools that follow the latest fad.
Again, this is more typical of large commercial schools that are trying to maximize enrollment and profit. It can backfire, though if the school seems unfocused as a result, which is why some will also fall into this:

Same goes for those who try to be a "jack of all trades".

Which usually amounts to a core art (most often a striking art) with grappling elements tossed in. But what if the school has instructors ranked and graded in other arts? Realistically, if the school has qualified instructors from different arts, the school certainly could be a jack of all trades sort of school, though I generally prefer a more focused school.

Instructors that learn only from videos/short seminars (that give instructors certs, lol) should be exposed as frauds.
If they have fulfilled the requirements set forth by the organization certifying them, then no, they should not accross the board be exposed as frauds. This is actually fairly removed from the rest of the issues you list and also gets into what constitutes fraud. Though I am in agreement that people who have video training only or whose experience is limited to short seminars really should not be instructing.

Teach what you know. Admit when you don't have the answers. Learn from those who do.
I consider that an axiom.

I have spent 30 years in tkd and 9 in bjj. Seen more than my fair share. All styles are different. Most have something to offer, even the ata. Their ma is lousy and most agree that a bb should not be earned in 18 months, but what a business model!
This is not restricted by any means to the ATA. I said this in another thread, but it bears repeating. We all are ready to judge time in grade requirements for black belts in one breath and then say that rank is meaningless in the next.

I really don't care if another school offers a BB in less than two years. I still don't think that it is really a good idea, primarily due to the perceived value of a blackbelt by the general public and the potential for an undertrained student (usually kids) to think he or she is more capable than they actually are, but since rank really is unimportant (though not meaningless), another school's time in grade is unimportant to me.

Light contact should only be for beginners, young children and seniors. We teach martial arts! Not knitting! They can get confidence from soccer and should be getting basic discipline at home. Non contact is for tai chi and tae bo/aerobics.
What if they hate soccor? What if the student is an adult who lacks self confidence and is trying to improve themselves? It isn't always about little kids. Or what if it is a single parent who wants to have the discipline taught in the home reinforced by a second party? In a two parent home, one parent can reinforce the other, but for a single parent who has to work and be a parent, the support of the second parent is not there. As a single parent, I steer my kids towards whatever I can that will help reinforce the lessons that I teach at home. Discipline has never been an issue with my kids, but then, I am an MA instructor. But I'll take any reinforcement that I can get anyway.

As far as non contact, I am mostly in agreement with you.

Ok, rant over. Don't honestly care if readers agree or disagree. My mind is firm on this matter.
Many such rants about all of the above on the internet. This is because, in my opinion, entrepreneurial spirit has overtaken the substance of the arts in many large commercial schools and long timers like you and I see it and know what those students are missing.

Daniel
 
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msmitht

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You have a lot of unrelated issues here, though minus the video/seminar issue, they do tend to converge in many commercial schools.


So long as the school is billing their program as a self improvement/sport (so long as the sport mandates light contact)/fitness program/after school activity (which is what most commercial schools are), then the contact level is unimportant.

If the school is billing themselves as a self defense school or an MMA school, then light or no contact goes against the stated purpose of the school.

So long as the school is up front about what they are offering, this simply comes down to a question of you being the wrong customer for the product being offered.

Non/light contact works well for large commercial schools because when you get right down to it, most people in the states who take a martial art do so for self improvement/fitness/after school activity and are not looking to be teh deadly or to get banged up. Many want to simply have more confidence in themselves.


Again, this is more typical of large commercial schools that are trying to maximize enrollment and profit. It can backfire, though if the school seems unfocused as a result, which is why some will also fall into this:



Which usually amounts to a core art (most often a striking art) with grappling elements tossed in. But what if the school has instructors ranked and graded in other arts? Realistically, if the school has qualified instructors from different arts, the school certainly could be a jack of all trades sort of school, though I generally prefer a more focused school.


If they have fulfilled the requirements set forth by the organization certifying them, then no, they should not accross the board be exposed as frauds. This is actually fairly removed from the rest of the issues you list and also gets into what constitutes fraud. Though I am in agreement that people who have video training only or whose experience is limited to short seminars really should not be instructing.


I consider that an axiom.


This is not restricted by any means to the ATA. I said this in another thread, but it bears repeating. We all are ready to judge time in grade requirements for black belts in one breath and then say that rank is meaningless in the next.

I really don't care if another school offers a BB in less than two years. I still don't think that it is really a good idea, primarily due to the perceived value of a blackbelt by the general public and the potential for an undertrained student (usually kids) to think he or she is more capable than they actually are, but since rank really is unimportant (though not meaningless), another school's time in grade is unimportant to me.


What if they hate soccor? What if the student is an adult who lacks self confidence and is trying to improve themselves? It isn't always about little kids. Or what if it is a single parent who wants to have the discipline taught in the home reinforced by a second party? In a two parent home, one parent can reinforce the other, but for a single parent who has to work and be a parent, the support of the second parent is not there. As a single parent, I steer my kids towards whatever I can that will help reinforce the lessons that I teach at home. Discipline has never been an issue with my kids, but then, I am an MA instructor. But I'll take any reinforcement that I can get anyway.

As far as non contact, I am mostly in agreement with you.


Many such rants about all of the above on the internet. This is because, in my opinion, entrepreneurial spirit has overtaken the substance of the arts in many large commercial schools and long timers like you and I see it and know what those students are missing.

Daniel
Agree with most. Have seen some good commercial schools. Mostly bad. Just my opinion of course. As a former infantry marine, with combat exp (unfortunately), my beliefs are different than most. Many adults that I meet have a nephew or niece that got their BB at age 5, 6 or 7. they laugh at tkd and look at it only as an art for little kids.
 

Touch Of Death

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Note that I did say that light contact is ok for beginners. A good teacher will be able to help students make the transition from light contact to medium...etc.
As for krav maga rivaling the popularity of tkd, LOL! We have 70 milloin practitioners on the planet! Not all are good, not all are bad. Not all practice even medium contact. But your reference was about popularity:)
How much can you honestly take away from a 2, 4 or 8 hour seminar? Even if trained, it is difficult to retain knowlege to the point of being able to teach it to others without continious repitition.
You laugh now, but wait until a few million of your TKD guys get their Krav certification.:ultracool
Sean
 

Daniel Sullivan

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Agree with most. Have seen some good commercial schools. Mostly bad. Just my opinion of course.
A long time ago, a teacher told me that in general, eighty percent of everything is crap. While I wouldn't go so far as to personally use the word crap, I got the drift of what he was saying; most of what we consume, be it art, literature, music, theatre, movies, or television, is of a lower quality. Only about twenty percent really is worth our time, and of that twenty percent, a smaller percent is truly exceptional.

Going by that rule of thumb, eighty percent of commercial schools are going to be less than desireable. Twenty percent will be desireable and of that twenty percent, a smaller percentage will be truly exceptional.[/quote]

As a former infantry marine, with combat exp (unfortunately), my beliefs are different than most.
Firstly, thank you for your service!

Secondly, I doubt that what is seen in most martial arts schools, regardless of the art, is going to really relate much, if at all, to actual wartime or active duty combat, even in a good school.

Many adults that I meet have a nephew or niece that got their BB at age 5, 6 or 7. they laugh at tkd and look at it only as an art for little kids.
There is a gent who posts on TKDspace who lives in Korea who said that taekwondo is like baseball over here. Most of those practicing taekwondo are kids and teens.

Whether or not that is good or bad is an entirely different subject, but it is consistent with what I see here in the US.

I think that whether adult or child, a quality program stands out from lousy or substandard programs. The frustrating (perhaps good?) thing is that the lousy or substandard programs usually cost more (often much more!) than a quality program.

Daniel
 

jthomas1600

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I'm one who thinks that sparring can serve as a valuable part of preparing for self defense (I know that's a debated topic hear) and as such I think solid contact is necessary. Your instructor might tell you "your moving in, but not throwing the right had soon enough. Your left hand is too low. You're going to get countered". He can tell you that 100 times and you might or might not correct the problem. But I think if you spend some time sparring with near full contact force you will get your bell rung a few times as your opponent counters over your left hand that's held too low and you will correct the mistake very quickly.

My personal preference at this point in my life is enough contact to keep everyone honest, but I'm too old to get beat up several times a week.
 

DMcHenry

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I agree JThomas. I remember working with an instructor throwing a ridgehand. I would do it, and in a calm voice he'd say "keep your back hand up". I thought my back hand was up garding my face, so I'd throw another and he'd keep saying "keep your back hand up". Then the next one I throw *bam!* I slapped right up side my face, and in his same calm voice said again "keep your back hand up". That made a HUGE impression on me, and I kept my back hand up (actually ON my face so as not to get hit again).

He kept telling me over and over and I thought I had it covered.... he showed me in a way that made his point very quickly and I obviously wasn't getting until I got tagged.
 

Daniel Sullivan

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I'm one who thinks that sparring can serve as a valuable part of preparing for self defense (I know that's a debated topic hear) and as such I think solid contact is necessary.
It is debated. However, much of the debate centers around what defines sparring. I personally agree with you regarding your statements about contact.

Daniel
 

Manny

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No contact is a bad thing, light contact is not a good thing, medium to heavy contact is good thing.

We sparr only full contact using all the safety gear, and even with this one can be hurt.

It's a shame to see how the kids do ho si sul or one steps sparring using very light contact, and it's scary to see how people do for example a sweep to the suporting leg without the comitement to put down his/her partner inside the dojang, I can image how can become this if the person needs to put down a perp.

Manny
 
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