Students and instructors

[Kacey]

As a student, what do you feel you owe your instructor? As an instructor, what do you feel you owe your students?

My own answer is based on the Student/Instructor Relationship, from both the student's and instructor's sides, originally from The Encyclopedia of TaeKwon-Do, by Gen. Choi Hong Hi, and condensed into various requirement books in more than one association I have either belonged to or had contact with.

From the student's side:

10 Parts of the Student/Instructor Relationship:

1) Never tire of learning. A good student can learn anytime, anywhere.
2) A good student must be willing to sacrifice for his art and instructor.
3) Always set a good example for lower ranking students.
4) Always be loyal to your instructor.
5) If your instructor teaches you a technique, practice and attempt to utilize it.
6) Remember that a student’s conduct outside the dojang reflects on his instructor and school.
7) If a student adopts a technique from another gym and his instructor disapproves of it, the student must discard the technique.
8) Never be disrespectful to your instructor. Though a student is allowed to disagree, the student must follow instructions first and discuss the matter later.
9) A student must always be eager to ask questions and to learn.
10) Never betray your instructor’s trust.

From the instructor's side:

1) Never tire of teaching. A good instructor can teach anywhere, anytime, and is always ready to answer questions.
2) An instructor should be eager for his students to surpass him; it is the ultimate compliment for an instructor. A student should never be held back. If the instructor realizes his student has developed beyond his teaching capabilities, the student should be sent to a higher ranking instructor.
3) An instructor must always set a good example for his students and never attempt to defraud them.
4) The development of students should take precedence over commercialism. Once an instructor becomes concerned with materialism, he will lose the respect of his students.
5) Instructors should teach scientifically and theoretically to save time and energy.
6) Instructors should help students develop good contacts outside the club. It is an instructor’s responsibility to develop students outside as well as inside the training hall.
7) Students should be encouraged to visit other training halls and study other techniques. Students who are forbidden to visit other clubs are likely to become rebellious. There are two advantages for allowing students to visit other gyms; not only is there the possibility that a student may observe a technique that is ideally suited for him, but be may also have a chance to learn by comparing his techniques to inferior techniques.
8) All students should be treated equally, there should be no favorites. Students should always be scolded in private, never in front of the class.
9) If the instructor is not able to answer a student’s question, he should not fabricate an answer, but admit he does not know and attempt to find the answer as soon as possible. Too often a lower degree black belt dispenses illogical answers to his students merely because he is afraid of "losing face" because he does not know the answer. Always be honest with students.
10) Never betray a trust.

Note that these are complementary; both the student and the instructor have responsibilities toward the other. Do other people have different viewpoints?

 

[bluemtn]

Well, I'm a bit fuzzy on #2, but I'm in 100% agreement with the rest. As your training progresses, and you train there for quite a long while, I think it'll become natural to feel "loyal" to your instructor and art. Even though I've gotten away from TKD for a brief period of time, I found that I came back to where I started from, and still love it every bit as much as when I started. It's like you become a family.

 

[K31]

Well, some things that should go without saying for students, but unfortunately need to be said:

1. Show up on time prepared for class.
2. Show up with what you need for class e.g. sparring gear.
3. Know how to tie your belt.
4. Be clean and wear a clean uniform.
5. Don't whine.
6. Don't disrespect your belt or uniform.
7. Keep your mouth shut when the instructor is talking.
8. Pay attention when the instructor is demonstrating a technique.
9. Do your best even when you are tired or have had a bad day.

 

[tkd_Jaz]

I think sometimes it's the little things that count. I agree with things like being ready for class ect... I do things like throwing away the garbage and making sure that the gym is clean at the end of class and things like that. I don't really feel that I owe this to my instructor(I'm not expected to do it) but I do it because I want to and as a token of my appreciation. It's not always what you do during class but also what you do after.

 

[Marginal]

Well, I'm a bit fuzzy on #2, but I'm in 100% agreement with the rest.

Depending on the instructor, #2 can be a bludgeon. It can be used to justify any demand the instructor may make of a student.

In more sensible terms it usualy means that students should try to make themselves available for demonstrations, show up for class on days they can go but kinda don't want to, that they should be willing to participate in class etc. Basic stuff.

 

[matt.m]

Wow, I am both......I am an active instructor and an active student. I teach a class on Thursday to people who outrank me in Tae Kwon Do, (Brown to 2nd dan). However, I have a dan in Judo and that is the class I teach.....Only what is relevant to hapkido.

Everyone calls me sir when I am teaching and Mr. in TKD and HKD......I am only half way to black in the latter two. However, I wear the belt I have earned in TKD and HKD, I am the highest ranking student in HKD but the lowest ranking "Upper Belt" in TKD.

The easy part of the whole equation is "No one in MSK:St.L has an ego and we all work together to help each other."

I work to break down everything I can and have to so I can help to teach the Kazuski, throwing, and falling as well as the "Walking across the room" and "Air fits" that the students need. I am extremely patient. I have always thought "Who cares how long it takes to get it done, just get it done."

On the flip side......In TKD, my students that outrank me in TKD go above and beyond to help me the same way in TKD that I do for them in Judo and Hapkido.

I am the lowest ranking dan at the school and have no problem with it. The thing is this: There should always be a level of "Hero worship" to work hard to attain, however it shouldn't be ego abused driven by those with the high rank.

I talk to the GM and other Masters all the time and we have always tried to develop a sense of "Everyone is a student, however someone has to be in charge to help" kind of attitude.

Just my .02

 

[DArnold]

Loyalty!

 

[IcemanSK]

In terms of the original question, "what do you owe your instructor?" I like the list from the Encyclopedia that Kacey brought out. While I don't have a formal list the Gen. Choi did, I have a courtesy agreement between my instructor & myself.

Loyality is at the top of the list.

 

[Balrog]

As an instructor, my goal is to turn out students that are better than I am.

As a student, my goal is to be better than my instructor.

Both require loyalty and dedication.

 

[Kacey]

As an instructor, my goal is to turn out students that are better than I am.

As a student, my goal is to be better than my instructor.

Both require loyalty and dedication.

Nicely stated! :asian:

 

[terryl965]

As an instructor, my goal is to turn out students that are better than I am.

As a student, my goal is to be better than my instructor.

Both require loyalty and dedication.

Excellent post

 

[MBuzzy]

How do people feel about #7 in terms of cross training? Is this in reference to techniques within the same style?

I really like the instructor side of #7, but I think it only works in terms of different schools within the same style.

 

[Kacey]

How do people feel about #7 in terms of cross training? Is this in reference to techniques within the same style?

I really like the instructor side of #7, but I think it only works in terms of different schools within the same style.

Nope, it refers to cross training - but I accidentally left a piece off... it should say

"If a student adopts a technique from another gym and his instructor disapproves of it, the student must discard the technique or train at the other gym"

This relates more to respect for one's instructor than anything else - if you respect your instructor, then you will not introduce information and/or use techniques in class without the instructor's permission, and if the instructor asks you to not introduce something, or not to use it, you should respect that request. Students who can't respect such decisions - or who can't be bothered to follow them - are students an instructor can, IMHO, afford to lose, for the sake of the other students.

As an instructor, I could see lots of problems with someone coming back from a totally different style (or even a similar one) and having problems with technical differences thus needing to pick a primary style for a while, until able to keep the technical differences separate - and also seriously confusing others who are either not cross-training, or are cross-training in something else, which, as far as I'm concerned, is the bigger concern.

My students are welcome to cross-train - in fact, they're encouraged to, although few do, mostly due to time constraints - but I could easily see one of them learning something I don't teach (in which case I'd probably want them to show me and then the class) or, more problematic, learn something I do teach, but earlier than the sequence I use for instructing, which can cause problems with their progression with me.

 

[MBuzzy]

That is a great point...and I suppose it wholly depends on how you interpret the rules and who the student is. It would be VERY problematic to a school if a student started training in another style and then used those techniques in your school.

They way you put it, Kacey makes very much sense to me. I suppose I just have a sour taste in my mouth about styles that FORBID cross training....I think that makes me more sensitive to it!

 

[DArnold]

That is a great point...and I suppose it wholly depends on how you interpret the rules and who the student is. It would be VERY problematic to a school if a student started training in another style and then used those techniques in your school.

They way you put it, Kacey makes very much sense to me. I suppose I just have a sour taste in my mouth about styles that FORBID cross training....I think that makes me more sensitive to it!

FORBID = Fear of looseing students = Insecurity in what you do/teach

 

[Blindside]

I have a hard time understanding how or why you would forbid a technique. If the technique is crap, show everyone the counter and then obliterate the person every time they try it, usually fixes the problem. If the technique is great you should be stealing it.

I'm a student who has cross-trained in a number of different styles, and I am welcome to come in and try them against others in our class. Its a learning experience for all involved, I get to see proposed defenses, and the class gets to see some characteristics of another style without having to go out and cross-train to get it.

How is this doing a "disservice" to other students? Are you as an instructor so insecure in your technique that a student using something that you haven't taught them is going to somehow pollute the school?

If the student learns something "out of order" how is that going to mess up what you teach? Are you going to say "you can't do that until you are X belt" despite the fact that they already know it? This is more about instructor ego that the student to me.

Lamont

 

[Kacey]

I have a hard time understanding how or why you would forbid a technique. If the technique is crap, show everyone the counter and then obliterate the person every time they try it, usually fixes the problem. If the technique is great you should be stealing it.

So.... I guess you missed this part of my post entirely:

My students are welcome to cross-train - in fact, they're encouraged to, although few do, mostly due to time constraints - but I could easily see one of them learning something I don't teach (in which case I'd probably want them to show me and then the class)

How is this doing a "disservice" to other students? Are you as an instructor so insecure in your technique that a student using something that you haven't taught them is going to somehow pollute the school?

If the student learns something "out of order" how is that going to mess up what you teach? Are you going to say "you can't do that until you are X belt" despite the fact that they already know it? This is more about instructor ego that the student to me.

Gee... let's see... having a student attempt to teach a technique s/he can demonstrate but doesn't understand and can't explain teach something they learned elsewhere to juniors who don't have a clue how to use it properly and end up hurting someone unintentionally because they're trying to use a technique they don't understand and can't control properly... no, can't see how that could be a problem at all.

 

[Blindside]

Gee... let's see... having a student attempt to teach a technique s/he can demonstrate but doesn't understand and can't explain teach something they learned elsewhere to juniors who don't have a clue how to use it properly and end up hurting someone unintentionally because they're trying to use a technique they don't understand and can't control properly... no, can't see how that could be a problem at all.

You said they "learned it," which implies they know how to use it properly. If by "learn it" you mean "saw it once and thought it was cool" then you are talking about something else entirely. Why are you having a student teach? I didn't suggest that, I said use it, as in sparring or whatever self-defense training you use. And if you see obvious defenses to it, you teach it, if you don't see a good defense for it you better learn one. If you like it, you steal it, and then YOU teach it.

Lamont

 

[Kacey]

So... your students don't watch each other, copy what other students do... Mine do, and yes, on very rare occasions, I have asked them not to use particular techniques in particular situations, not because they didn't know the technique well enough to use it, but because others who didn't tried to copy it - not because I didn't know it, or didn't want to learn it if it was new to me. I learn things from my students all the time - everyone's life experience is different - but that doesn't mean that everything every student walks in with is appropriate for use in all situations.

You don't agree with me - that's your choice. I don't agree with you, and that's my choice. One of the great advantages to the internet is the ability to interact with others who have different experiences and different opinions; if we all agreed all the time, things would get awfully boring.

 

[DArnold]

I have a hard time understanding how or why you would forbid a technique. If the technique is crap, show everyone the counter and then obliterate the person every time they try it, usually fixes the problem. If the technique is great you should be stealing it.

You may wish to look up and learn what the meaning of Respect is in the Dictionary then you will start down the road of learning why most people don't care if you understand or not.

Obliterating the student does not teach them that the technique is crap, it mearly shows them that every time they go out to another class and observe a new technique, when they come back you can, and will, kick their ***.
So I dont think everyone follows your logic path.

Stealing the technique because, as you say, "If the technique is great you should be stealing it" shows that someone is not an instructor/student in an art but mearly a cockroach that scurrys about getting what they can find.

I'm a student who has cross-trained in a number of different styles, and I am welcome to come in and try them against others in our class. Its a learning experience for all involved, I get to see proposed defenses, and the class gets to see some characteristics of another style without having to go out and cross-train to get it.

Yes, I would use a person like you for my own means... as an example. We agreed with you, thus the statement, "students should be allowed to visit outside do-jangs". Any one with a modicum of intelligence knows ignorance is not bliss. However this should be guided by a knowledgable instructor to prevent problems. And seniors do train with other seniors in other styles, not juniors. (There is a difference between visiting and training).

As it said, the instructor decides what is taught and not taught, thus the name instructor. If a student wishes to be their own instructor, that is cool also, they can just do it somewhere else. But what makes you think any good instructor would share their most valued pearls of wisdom with a class hopper. HA

How is this doing a "disservice" to other students? Are you as an instructor so insecure in your technique that a student using something that you haven't taught them is going to somehow pollute the school?

I don't think most are insecure just because your dander is up.
Someone saying, "OH YEAH" has rarely been a good argument.

Please re-read the post as it said decide, not reject everything.
Therre are several possibilities, not just the one you are jumping to.
It may already be a part of the art
It may be a part of the art that that the student is not ready for
It may be just crap.

So, one answer to your question is yes, it could be crap that pollutes the school.

If the student learns something "out of order" how is that going to mess up what you teach? Are you going to say "you can't do that until you are X belt" despite the fact that they already know it? This is more about instructor ego that the student to me.

Nah
It really is quite simple.

Let me explain it in terms my child would understand. You have to learn your ABC's before you can learn to write, then I will teach you cursive. Then I will teach you cognative writting, then professional dissertations...

I think most teachers would find it, as you put in elloquent terms, "crap" to try and teach algebra to a student that does not know addition and subtraction.

So then comes your argument, well I wouldn't work out with someone like this because they have an ego.
That's fine.

The point you miss is that the reason they call them instructors is that they have already been down this path before and have and will see many like you come and go.
They know its not about them but about a students ego that does not know the meaning of respect.
One that thinks they will pick and choose what they want to learn.
One that thinks they should be their own instructor.
One that thinks you pay an instructor with dues (money).

Instructors do not go to class to learn from you.
They really don't need to be at class at all.
The only reason they are their is to show students the way.
You may wish to read Joel Hyams, Zen in the martial Arts as every instructor has had to deal with a student who's cup was already full.

Any instructor can afford to loose one of these.
If a student can not show me they can controll the simplest of things, their mind, throgh a simple act of respect, then by all means they can still work out in my class but that does not mean that I have to teach them. It will just be aerobics and after a while they will go away (Thinking I am a crappy instructor because I didn't give them anything)

An instructor teaching you is usually not based on money but on loyalty. Students always have this misconception that you must teach them. LOL

Yeah, Somewhere, someoneo said, "Do not cast your pearls before swine"
And if you think most instructors have not seen class hoppers before well then the joke is really on you.
:shock: