Is here any....???

[Manny]

Is in this amazing forum (TKD) some dojang or smabonim that focus on TKD teaching but not taking care about the WTF? I mean, without any aproach to WTF or does not take part of WTF or does not competie in WTF sanctioned tournaments or not caring at all about WTF?

For example, I have a Shotokan sensei friend of mine who is a 4th degree black belt, he runs his own dojo, he claims he teaches traditinal karate, he or his dojo is not part of any organization (JKA, JKS,etc) his students sometimes compete in local matches if they want (he does not obligate his/her students to compete), and told me that if someone of his/hers students want a piece of paper with the JKA seal and signatures for example they are free to go and aply the examniation test in that branches in my country.

Why I am asking all this? Because in my former dojang and actual dojang my sambonis are parte of the Mexican Tae Kwon Do Federation that's a part of WTF and I don't know of a sambonim in my city that's not part of the Mexican Federation or WTF.

Manny

 

[Dirty Dog]

We are a Moo Duk Kwan school. While our KJN has KKW rank and will award KKW rank to those who want it, the majority of our Dan ranks are from the Panamerican Moo Duk Kwan Society. We do not spar with the WTF ruleset. When students decide they'd like to compete in local events (never mandatory) we coach them on the particular ruleset that will be used at that event, which isn't necessarily going to be WTF,or even a TKD event.
The last event any of our students competed in was the Colorado State Open Championships which was open to all styles. Eight of our students competed (we're small, most of the schools brought 20-30 students). Just to brag a little, our eight brought home 5 gold, 9 silver and 3 bronze.

 

[Earl Weiss]

Is in this amazing forum (TKD) some dojang or smabonim that focus on TKD teaching but not taking care about the WTF? I mean, without any aproach to WTF or does not take part of WTF or does not competie in WTF sanctioned tournaments or not caring at all about WTF?

Manny

I would be one. When I started in TKD there was no such thing as the WTF, and while there was a KKW, it was not what it is today.

 

[dancingalone]

If I understand Manny's question correctly:

There are ample schools in the US that do not issue KKW rank nor follow KKW curriculum. They may be members of another organization such as the ITF(s) or another smaller organization or they be completely unaffiliated with any group. Generally these schools correspondingly do not compete in Olympic style TKD matches and are unconcerned with WTF matters.

On the other hand, there are certainly also plenty of schools that do issue KKW rank, such as mine, yet also do not participate in Olympic rules tournaments and largely know little about such things.

 

[SahBumNimRush]

I am not part or the WTF, my school is not part of the WTF, nor is my association part of the WTF. My KJN holds high kkw dan rank, but we are Moo Duk Kwan, and don't teach the KKW curriculum. So, from a KKW/WTF standpoint, not much of what we do meshes with their curriculum, so why affiliate? We perform different hyungs, wear traditional wrap dobahks, have different terminology, in competitions we spar traditional point sparring, etc. etc.. .

Some on here have asked why my KJN saw it important enough to have a KKW rank, but does not issue it to his students. While I do not know that answer, as I have never asked him, I would imagine it has to do with his involvement with the Olympic development of TKD back in the 80's and early 90's. Which he later withdrew from, because he felt it was detracting from the totality of TKD.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

We would probably meet your criteria Manny. No kkw certificates, we do not compete in any wtf events, do not do taegek forms or have any "sport" flavour whatsoever. I know of many big clubs here in Australia that also do none of the above. Large independent clubs are quite normal over here, and have literally thousands of members. It is actaully rare for me to run into a tkdist who does kkw/wtf tkd.

 

[Manny]

My master holds kukiwon rank but he only issue us his organization black belt certifications, we dont compete su much maybe once or twice no morethan three times per year at local matches wtf style. The way we spar is using wtf rules semanny

 

[Rumy73]

So for those of you with independent schools or ones of small affiliations, how do you handle students who transfer into your school? Do you accept his rank that he earned elsewhere? Reciprocally, what happens to your student who moves and wishes to continue with TKD at a new school only to find out his old school's system is not kkw?

 

[ralphmcpherson]

So for those of you with independent schools or ones of small affiliations, how do you handle students who transfer into your school? Do you accept his rank that he earned elsewhere? Reciprocally, what happens to your student who moves and wishes to continue with TKD at a new school only to find out his old school's system is not kkw?

When someone comes to our school from another tkd school they start at white belt like everybody else. After their first grading if the GM wishes he may promote them beyond yellow belt but no further than sixth gup which is the furthest they can go as far as skipping rank goes. I only know of one student from my club who went to a kkw school and that was because they wanted to test their hand at olympic style sparring. They were very good and so the new club promoted them straight to black belt so they could compete.

 

[ndnoakes]

With regards to the schools independent from WTF, are you ITF styled? (since the ITF has several branches, I refer to this as ITF styled).

Our school is ITF, namely Jun Tong (simply meaning traditional) and we receive certification from our 9th Dan Grandmaster, GM Robert Dunn.

We also have accepted students from other schools but they are assessed in a longer grading to see what they are capable of, and are then expected to assimilate into the class including learning new sets of patterns in some cases, before they are permitted to grade again.

 

[Earl Weiss]

With regards to the schools independent from WTF, are you ITF styled? (since the ITF has several branches, I refer to this as ITF styled).

.

I would be one.

 

[SahBumNimRush]

When someone transfers from another TKD or even Karate school, they start at white belt. Depending on skill and knowledge, they may be promoted at an accelerated rate and even skip geup ranks. Our students have no expectation of keeping rank if they move. The most recent students that moved out of our school relocated to Pittsburgh, PA. I contacted GM C.S. KIM, and he accepted my 2nd geups at their rank. However, C.S. KIM is Tang Soo Do, and practices the same curriculum as I do.

I have had black belts move and join a KKW school, and their ranks were honored, because of who our KJN is, but I don't expect that to be the case every time, everywhere.

 

[Dirty Dog]

If a student is likely to travel away (like those going off to college) we encourage them to consider getting the KKW Dan rank. We have one young lady doing that right now. She could have tested for the Moo Duk Kwan rank, but becuse she will be going off to college she's going to get KKW. I'm working with her on the KKW curriculum now, and expect she will test in April.

As far as students retaining rank... we don't make a big deal out of it. If someone comes from another school they can choose to wear their rank from that school. They cannot promote at our school until they meet our standards for that new rank. In my experience, those who want to wear their rank from another system don't stick around long. I think they feel foolish wearing (for example) a 1st Dan belt without being able to perform the geup forms.

When I joined this school, it was a no brainer. I hadn't been training, and it was a different system than my original (ITF) training, so I strapped on a white belt. I figure it's better to be an unusually good white belt than an unusually bad black belt.

 

[Rumy73]

When someone comes to our school from another tkd school they start at white belt like everybody else. After their first grading if the GM wishes he may promote them beyond yellow belt but no further than sixth gup which is the furthest they can go as far as skipping rank goes. I only know of one student from my club who went to a kkw school and that was because they wanted to test their hand at olympic style sparring. They were very good and so the new club promoted them straight to black belt so they could compete.

While I understand wanting to shape the student and instill one's curriculum, demoting someone to white could be viewed as profit driven.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

While I understand wanting to shape the student and instill one's curriculum, demoting someone to white could be viewed as profit driven.

I personally have not seen any new student come to our club and get the eight palgwe forms down to black belt standard, plus adapt to the way we spar, the longer stances, countless self defence/hapkido moves to have to a black belt standard etc etc without a fair bit of time passing. If you just give them a black belt and a coloured belt comes up wanting assistance with any of these things they will not be at a standard where they can offer assistance. As an example, I have just started crosstraining in shotokan (which I would find more similar to the tkd I do than kkw tkd), and despite eight years of tkd I am more than happy to don the white belt as I feel like very much the "newbie". I think most people want to be black belt standard before putting one on, and if they dont know the criteria and look"different" they are probably happy to wear a coloured belt for a while until they feel up to speed. I know I would.

 

[SahBumNimRush]

While I understand wanting to shape the student and instill one's curriculum, demoting someone to white could be viewed as profit driven.

I agree with Ralph, I haven't seen any KKW transfer student pick up all of our curriculum to our standard without quite a time commitment. I have had Shotokan and other Tang Soo Do students pick up on it a bit more quickly (due to the similarities), but all at least start at white belt. Some test at an accelerated rate though.

It's a two way street, I wouldn't expect any of my students (or my) rank to be honored if they moved to a KKW school. They may both be TKD, but the curricula are significantly different. Forms, stances, SD, sparring, terminology, etc.. .

To take it one step further, we even start our own students back at white belt if they have been out of class for more than 5 years. For example, a black belt graduates school, leaves for a job/other schooling. They come back 6 years later. They may have been practicing on their own, they may not have been. They have to meet the standards to wear that black belt. They can wear what rank they show proficiency in, until they make it back to black belt. I don't classically test them, just watch them in class. I don't charge them for the rank, as they had already tested for it.

 

[Balrog]

Is in this amazing forum (TKD) some dojang or smabonim that focus on TKD teaching but not taking care about the WTF? I mean, without any aproach to WTF or does not take part of WTF or does not competie in WTF sanctioned tournaments or not caring at all about WTF?
...snip...
Manny

I'm in the American Taekwondo Association. I started back in 1966 with GM Jhoon Rhee's organization, but I quit training at Brown Belt. In 1987, I started with ATA and am currently in training to become a Master Instructor.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Is in this amazing forum (TKD) some dojang or smabonim that focus on TKD teaching but not taking care about the WTF? I mean, without any aproach to WTF or does not take part of WTF or does not competie in WTF sanctioned tournaments or not caring at all about WTF?

For example, I have a Shotokan sensei friend of mine who is a 4th degree black belt, he runs his own dojo, he claims he teaches traditinal karate, he or his dojo is not part of any organization (JKA, JKS,etc) his students sometimes compete in local matches if they want (he does not obligate his/her students to compete), and told me that if someone of his/hers students want a piece of paper with the JKA seal and signatures for example they are free to go and aply the examniation test in that branches in my country.

Right now, due to space and weather, I am not running anything other than kendo and classical foil. During the summer, I teach an SD oriented taekwondo with some elements of hapkido included. I do not compete in WTF events, nor do any of those with whom I train.

We use Taegeuk pumsae and I teach from the KKW textbook. We spar using WTF rules for colored belts and WHA (World Hapkido Association, of which I am a member) rules after shodan, as I like these better. If you're not familiar with WHA sparring rules, it looks more like the TKD seen in Best of the Best than WTF sparring.

I have focus mits, kicking targets, and a few old hogu from when I and my kids competed, plus a few items that have been donated to me over the years.

Why I am asking all this? Because in my former dojang and actual dojang my sambonis are parte of the Mexican Tae Kwon Do Federation that's a part of WTF and I don't know of a sambonim in my city that's not part of the Mexican Federation or WTF.

So they are associated with the Mexican affiliate of the WTF; essentially the Mexican equivalent of USAT.

So for those of you with independent schools or ones of small affiliations, how do you handle students who transfer into your school? Do you accept his rank that he earned elsewhere? Reciprocally, what happens to your student who moves and wishes to continue with TKD at a new school only to find out his old school's system is not kkw?

I hold a KKW ildan and a dojang (independent) sadan. I know the KKW material up to my independent grade but have never tested; my previous TKD dojang required six, seven, and eight hundred dollars for the tests (2nd, 3rd, 4th dan respectively) and I simply wasn't going to pay nearly two grand just to test on material that I already knew.

All ranks that I issue are in house, and then only for the purpose of moving students from one part of the curriculum to the next.

It hasn't been an issue, but for students who transfer in, I would recognize their rank. I don't charge for lessons, only use four belts (two geubs per belt), and do not charge for tests. Certificates come off of my printer. The guys and gals who show up, along with myself, throw money into a kitty to cover costs of belts, boards, and pizza. I have a wholesale account with Dynamicsworld.com and the only thing that I ask students to buy are doboks, which I "sell" to them for my cost. We tried last winter to do the garage dojang, but it was miserable, so we put it on hold until the weather warms up.

I make zero profit in this venture; it is purely for fun.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

When someone comes to our school from another tkd school they start at white belt like everybody else. After their first grading if the GM wishes he may promote them beyond yellow belt but no further than sixth gup which is the furthest they can go as far as skipping rank goes. I only know of one student from my club who went to a kkw school and that was because they wanted to test their hand at olympic style sparring. They were very good and so the new club promoted them straight to black belt so they could compete.

While I understand wanting to shape the student and instill one's curriculum, demoting someone to white could be viewed as profit driven.

Actually, what Ralph describes is fairly common, or at least it used to be. A variant that is probably more common here is to recognize the current grade but not promote them until they've learned the new school's curriculum up to that grade. Either way, if the student isn't chasing belts, it shouldn't matter.