Is BJJ really ready for the Real World

[James Kovacich]

This one I've been thinking about a lot. Is Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu practical in real world situations?

After a few years on the mat practicing BJJ and usually the "pure"BJJ'ers progressed faster than me (I think because I see things differantly than them). But in their "all around overall" fighting abilities, 98% I would have no problem defeating them (my fellow students).

Is BJJ to sport oriented? How does it hold up against something more hard core like JKD?

I'll respond but I would like to hear some of my peers first if you please.

:asian:

 

[tarabos]

a good BJJ instructor both knows and teaches the difference between sport and street application. it's just sport that gets all the press, and with it, the stereotypical assumtion that BJJ practitioners are dead meat if they get in a fight on the street.

 

[James Kovacich]

Originally posted by tarabos
a good BJJ instructor both knows and teaches the difference between sport and street application. it's just sport that gets all the press, and with it, the stereotypical assumtion that BJJ practitioners are dead meat if they get in a fight on the street.

But are any of these instructors teaching their students the "faults" as well, explaining the differance between sport and real life. The school I attended did not. My (former) instructor is shown at bjj.org demonstrating techniques:
http://www.bjj.org/techniques/jen/tech13/

and I can tell you from experience I saw a lot of holes.

But I stand by my belief that in order to beat the grappler you need to train like a grappler. Once you "understand" the grappler, then you can "use your other tools" to modify your training. You do this by "first" learning some type of submission grappling training.

But that still leave the original question unanswered because I have been around a couple of accomplished BJJ players and they did teach pure sport type applications.

One of them is an accomplished JKD'er and I wouldn't want to cross his path in a dark alley but are they actually teaching their students from a point of view other than a grapplers?

 

[Kempojujutsu]

One of my students is very much into the sport aspect. thats all he talks about. When doing Kempo jujutsu he like to try ground submissions on me. Me I just like to ground and pound away. then try to find some kind of lock or chock. If you look at the first few UFC, Royce's stand up techniques suck. I have seen white belts from about any style throw better front kicks then that. Also after the Americans started using ground and pound to beat several BJJ, did they start to learn boxing and muay thai. Royce just about got beat by Kimo by striking, Ken Shamrock in the second fight put a big goose bump on Royce's cheek. I think it is a two way street. you need to learn submissions, but don't forget the best thing striking.
Bob :asian:

 

[tarabos]

i'm sure there are a lot of instructors that don't show the faults of doing some sport-oriented moves. probably a lot that don't address such dangers as a concrete surface, foreign objects and multiple attackers (the latter seeming to be everyone's favorite complaint these days against BJJ). there's also plenty of stand-up stylists that don't teach practical street applicable moves as well. it's all relative i think.

granted you're most likely not going to get a sophisticated striking arsenal out of any BJJ school, but you will learn some strikes.

it differs from instructor to instructor, from school to school, as it does for any martial art anymore.

 

[MJS]

Originally posted by Kempojujutsu
One of my students is very much into the sport aspect. thats all he talks about. When doing Kempo jujutsu he like to try ground submissions on me. Me I just like to ground and pound away. then try to find some kind of lock or chock. If you look at the first few UFC, Royce's stand up techniques suck. I have seen white belts from about any style throw better front kicks then that. Also after the Americans started using ground and pound to beat several BJJ, did they start to learn boxing and muay thai. Royce just about got beat by Kimo by striking, Ken Shamrock in the second fight put a big goose bump on Royce's cheek. I think it is a two way street. you need to learn submissions, but don't forget the best thing striking.
Bob :asian:

The "kick" that he is throwing is actually not a kick, but more of a probe. He uses it to judge his distance, and then shoots in for a takedown. If you watch Rickson, he does the same thing.

Mike

 

[James Kovacich]

Traditional Jujutsu does have strikes and elbows and such but thats not what I was thinking. In BJJ there is an escape and reversal to everything but I feel that there is little taught about the dangers of such "desired" positions like the "guard."

I think we agree that the guard is very dangerous against "a biter." Although it is great if you know how to use it, but I think overused or maybe over relied on. Like some people who just pull straight into the guard for example.

If I'm in the guard in class I may have a problem getting out because they have my "handles" as well its just pure BJJ. But if you take off the gi and be more flexible with the techniques then all of the sudden evryone starts having the similar problems with me like I had with them.

I actually use what I've learned in BJJ as a guide to teach my students what and when to do things and especially what not to do and why.

I do think that BJJ training in general is one of the better arts to learn to "toughen up" in areas that we might be weak in, like I was before BJJ.

This is an open technical discussion not a Bit$% about BJJ discussion.
Thanx, guys.


:asian:

 

[twinkletoes]

akja,

You are absolutely right. In a straight out fight, against a pure (sport) BJJ'er, you will win. But I still do BJJ too

Here we go, the top 5 Reasons to train BJJ for the street:

1) Delivery System

I tend to think in terms of delivery systems these days. In other words, if you teach someone to box, and you get him in the ring a lot and turn him into a really good headhunter, and THEN you teach him what an "eyejab" is, you'd better wear goggles to class from now on, because he's gonna hit that eye more often than not.

It's the same thing with tactics like biting. They do work! Not only that, but most BJJ'ers have not experienced them, and don't know what to do against them! However, if you taught a BJJ-er and a non-grappler biting, who is your money on? Mine is on the BJJ-er.

So BJJ is an effective delivery system, just like boxing. I would add Greco to the list as well, and a few other things too (Savate, Muay Thai, Judo, shootwrestling....stuff like that).

2) So You Know what Grapplers Do

Now in response to your specific "is BJJ street oriented" question, I will also agree with you again--the best way to beat a grappler is train like him. This is absolutely correct. None of my kenpo training ever addressed a double leg takedown (not the way it would really come in). Now I know how to sprawl 'n' brawl, or choke him out when that comes. Awesome.

3) It's all about escape, anyways.

I do BJJ and focus on escapes. I want to be the Houdini of BJJ. My motivation: I don't want to be on the bottom in a fight.

If I ever get into a fight, and for who knows WHAT reason, I wind up on my back, I want to be out of there faster than anyone can see. I want to be out the door running before he knows what happened. And the best way to get good at escapes is to roll with the BJJ'ers!

4) Knee-On Stomach

Boy, I wish I had learned Knee-On Stomach a little earlier. Knee-on stomach is a striker's paradise. Frank Benn has a great article on fighting multiple opponents with BJJ, and he thoroughly discusses the uses of Knee-on stomach to control (and obliterate) one guy, even though you are about 6-1- inches shy of being "standing up." Try a drill sometime where you get knee-on stomach position, flurry strikes to the face, and then pop up to your feet. It's so easy! And as Frank says "If I have to face 2 guys, I want one of them under my knee."

5) Better to know it than not.

I know how to swim, but I would never take a fight to the ocean.

But if it ever goes there, I am prepared!

Now, if it's really sport BJJ, with all the pretty moves and fancy stuff, I can see how impractical that is. And most people with a mind for the street, myself included, shy away from that a stuff a bit. Honestly, it isn't necessary for self-defense, and it isn't really necessary for BJJ either, unless you want to win the Mundials.

If I ever get in a street fight and the guy passes my guard or goes for a spider guard sweep, I'm gonna stop fighting and ask him where he trains. I'll probably buy him the next round. So I don't worry about learning that stuff for the street.

Reason 6 (I lied): It's fun!!!

~TT

 

[lvwhitebir]

Originally posted by akja
In BJJ there is an escape and reversal to everything but I feel that there is little taught about the dangers of such "desired" positions like the "guard."

In Gracie JJ, the guard is not treated as a desired position. It's a 50/50 game still. The mount is always the desired position and that's why it gets so many points in the sport aspect.

I agree that it's overused though. Several years ago, the Gracies were upset that people were using the guard too much and made rules to limit its benefit in their competitions. People were falling into the guard and also using it to stall for time. Of course, people overuse the mount in the sport aspect as well, going in and out of it in order to rack up the points, but at least they can get into it.

My current instructor doesn't even seem to use the closed guard much. It's always the open guard where he seems to have so much more control. IMO, it's also a better position for the street aspect than the closed guard; easier to push away, kick, or reverse.

WhiteBirch

 

[Old Fat Kenpoka]

Initial BJJ training is usually sport oriented. Sport training is safer for the beginning students. Sport training is very technical enabling students to develop grappling skills which are less natural than striking skills.

Most BJJ schools (I think) introduce the self-defense aspect separately or later. Those that do so separately offer separate boxing/kickboxing and/or no-gi classes.

Those that do so later, move the BJJ training from the knees to standup to allow takedowns. Later self-defense training also enables the students to cross-train for NHB/Vale Tudo.

 

[James Kovacich]

Originally posted by twinkletoes
akja,

You are absolutely right. In a straight out fight, against a pure (sport) BJJ'er, you will win. But I still do BJJ too

Here we go, the top 5 Reasons to train BJJ for the street:

1) Delivery System

I tend to think in terms of delivery systems these days. In other words, if you teach someone to box, and you get him in the ring a lot and turn him into a really good headhunter, and THEN you teach him what an "eyejab" is, you'd better wear goggles to class from now on, because he's gonna hit that eye more often than not.

It's the same thing with tactics like biting. They do work! Not only that, but most BJJ'ers have not experienced them, and don't know what to do against them! However, if you taught a BJJ-er and a non-grappler biting, who is your money on? Mine is on the BJJ-er.

So BJJ is an effective delivery system, just like boxing. I would add Greco to the list as well, and a few other things too (Savate, Muay Thai, Judo, shootwrestling....stuff like that).

2) So You Know what Grapplers Do

Now in response to your specific "is BJJ street oriented" question, I will also agree with you again--the best way to beat a grappler is train like him. This is absolutely correct. None of my kenpo training ever addressed a double leg takedown (not the way it would really come in). Now I know how to sprawl 'n' brawl, or choke him out when that comes. Awesome.

3) It's all about escape, anyways.

I do BJJ and focus on escapes. I want to be the Houdini of BJJ. My motivation: I don't want to be on the bottom in a fight.

If I ever get into a fight, and for who knows WHAT reason, I wind up on my back, I want to be out of there faster than anyone can see. I want to be out the door running before he knows what happened. And the best way to get good at escapes is to roll with the BJJ'ers!

4) Knee-On Stomach

Boy, I wish I had learned Knee-On Stomach a little earlier. Knee-on stomach is a striker's paradise. Frank Benn has a great article on fighting multiple opponents with BJJ, and he thoroughly discusses the uses of Knee-on stomach to control (and obliterate) one guy, even though you are about 6-1- inches shy of being "standing up." Try a drill sometime where you get knee-on stomach position, flurry strikes to the face, and then pop up to your feet. It's so easy! And as Frank says "If I have to face 2 guys, I want one of them under my knee."

5) Better to know it than not.

I know how to swim, but I would never take a fight to the ocean.

But if it ever goes there, I am prepared!

Now, if it's really sport BJJ, with all the pretty moves and fancy stuff, I can see how impractical that is. And most people with a mind for the street, myself included, shy away from that a stuff a bit. Honestly, it isn't necessary for self-defense, and it isn't really necessary for BJJ either, unless you want to win the Mundials.

If I ever get in a street fight and the guy passes my guard or goes for a spider guard sweep, I'm gonna stop fighting and ask him where he trains. I'll probably buy him the next round. So I don't worry about learning that stuff for the street.

Reason 6 (I lied): It's fun!!!

~TT

Everything I've learned in BJJ I've had to modify for myself. That was the first problem I had with my instructor. He was a perfectionist and it reminded me (in the back of my head) of the mentality of doing a technique 1000 times. Yes its true after 1000 repetitions I will have mastered that technique but it will be useless if after practicing techniques for 1000 repetitions if all I know is 1 technique.

My body mechanics for all arts I've found is slightly differant than the average person. So in freestyle you find that all that "breaking down" of the technique is mostly needed in the beginning or you'll fall behind because while your working on the little things everyone else has already learned the counter and the counter to the counter.

Later you will break it down yourself as it applies to you and your body.

I think where I'm headed is in the direction of "how" BJJ is being taught. Or maybe its abot an instructors approach to teaching group classes.



:asian:

 

[twinkletoes]

akja,

I have studied BJJ from a couple of instructors.

Now that I train it with Roy Harris, who is a JKD man at heart, I can finally train it with THE STREET at the forefront of my mind, because I know that this is his goal too.

It frees me from worries that I am learning "sport techniques" that are less applicable to street combat.

~TT

 

[James Kovacich]

Originally posted by twinkletoes
akja,

I have studied BJJ from a couple of instructors.

Now that I train it with Roy Harris, who is a JKD man at heart, I can finally train it with THE STREET at the forefront of my mind, because I know that this is his goal too.

It frees me from worries that I am learning "sport techniques" that are less applicable to street combat.

~TT

How often does Roy get out there? He is one of the instructors of my former instrructor along with Joe Moreira. I think Roy and Joe are both stand up guys.

:asian:

 

[twinkletoes]

Funny you should ask! I'm picking Roy up at the airport tomorrow night! He will be doing a 2-day seminar here in CT over the weekend, and I'll be getting in some more privates with him.

Since I took his apprentice instructor course last August, I have seen him in person twice. Both of these were 2-day seminars (January in Vermont, and April in Maine). I missed the one in Rochester, NY in May. Each time I see him I get in a couple of my lessons (we are required to take 4 privates per year). In april I tested for my blue.

Additionally, we get a lot of email and online support from him. He sends us video updates from time to time of things to work on. (The last one showed 25 ways to escape the straight armlock, including 20 different ways to guard the arm!)

While it can be difficult to train long-distance, Roy is so specific in his instruction that he is able to relay details and concepts from afar. When I teach, I make sure that I get work in on the things he fixed the last time I saw him. Each time I see him, I try to get a feel for whether or not he thinks I worked on that the right way.

I know that Roy himself spent most of purple belt training only with brand new white belt students, because he had just opened his own academy. He said his game took a phenomenal jump, even though he had nobody at a high level to train with. He knew what he needed to work on, and he did it. I think it's that experience that helps him show us how to do it. (I have a couple guys who already had blues from Royce and Rorion, but many of my guys are brand new.)

All in all, I know I have found the instructor for me. While it's tempting to move out to San Diego and see him all the time, I will take what I can get (for now ).

~TT

 

[A.R.K.]

Akja,

I'll relay a story that Disco told me about. At S.E.P.S.I. where I teach academy classes we also have large in-service classes for officers in this part of the state. We are very fortunate to draw big 'names' from around the world. One of them is Hoyce Gracie. He teaches a 40 hr clinic to veteran officers/instructors.

Disco was at S.E.P.S.I. taking a different training class when he encountered two officers in the parking lot near his POV talking excitedly about the BJJ class Gracie was teaching. This was about day 4 or 5 I believe of the class. Disco was busy with his training class and was only able to stick his head inside the 'green room' occasionally to see what was happening.

So Disco asked them how the class was going. Both officers raved about how excellent it was and how much they enjoyed it. Then Disco asked them how much of it they could actually use in the street in a real confrontation. They both stopped and stared at each other for a moment then answered 'Well...none of it really'.

No disrespect intended to BJJ or it's practitioners. And I'm sure there are some worthwhile techniques that are street applicable. But any technique, be it BJJ, JJ, Hapkido etc that requires you to get wrapped up with an opponent except for the briefest of times is not street applicable. Particuarly the ground fighting/grappling aspects that focus on submission vs incapacitation. In the octogon is one thing. On the ashpalt with possible multiple assailents.......is quite another.

The same viewpoint can be applied to any discipline that has techniques not really applicable to the street. I've used TKD before as an example. It is great and wonderful to be able to perform high, flashy kicks....in a dojo...in a baggy gi...warmed up and stretched out. Quite another to be wearing tight jeans in the winter in a parking lot that has uneven or wet surfaces. You get my point.

:asian:

 

[lvwhitebir]

Originally posted by A.R.K.
No disrespect intended to BJJ or it's practitioners. And I'm sure there are some worthwhile techniques that are street applicable. But any technique, be it BJJ, JJ, Hapkido etc that requires you to get wrapped up with an opponent except for the briefest of times is not street applicable. Particuarly the ground fighting/grappling aspects that focus on submission vs incapacitation. In the octogon is one thing. On the ashpalt with possible multiple assailents.......is quite another.

I disagree, to a point. I believe there are a lot of applications of submission that are important, especially for police. They don't have the luxury of striking if they can control the situation otherwise. They often find themselves "grappling" with suspects and have to learn to control them. They just have to be shown applicable techniques such as simple joint locks that enable them to move to or from the ground.

I trained with an FBI agent who was training under the Gracie system. A lot of what he learned and taught was applicable to his job daily. Yep, every art has their flashy stuff that probably won't work in an altercation, but they also all have stuff that would work. And the stuff that doesn't work usually teaches something to improve the stuff that does, such as information on body mechanics or positioning.

WhiteBirch

 

[James Kovacich]

Originally posted by lvwhitebir
I disagree, to a point. I believe there are a lot of applications of submission that are important, especially for police. They don't have the luxury of striking if they can control the situation otherwise. They often find themselves "grappling" with suspects and have to learn to control them. They just have to be shown applicable techniques such as simple joint locks that enable them to move to or from the ground.

I trained with an FBI agent who was training under the Gracie system. A lot of what he learned and taught was applicable to his job daily. Yep, every art has their flashy stuff that probably won't work in an altercation, but they also all have stuff that would work. And the stuff that doesn't work usually teaches something to improve the stuff that does, such as information on body mechanics or positioning.

WhiteBirch

True, I don't devalue my BJJ in the least bit. BJJ combined with Jun Fan allows me to "control" the situation at hand.

A lot of the hype goes into "the average" martial artist that can't escape from a good grapplers "hold."

But all arts have their fair share of hype. But I do wonder if BJJ is becoming to sport oriented.

:asian:

 

[A.R.K.]

lvwhitebir,

Please understand that I'm not saying control/submission techniques can't work on the street. I use controlling/submission techniques far more than striking/spiking. The point is that I'm not rolling around on concrete with the Bg either trying to get something on him. I can't afford to get wrapped up with him looking for an opening. I have to control or end the altercation right now!

Many of these techniques are great in an ideal environment with no time limits. Look at the UFC and others where they fight for five or ten minutes rolling around looking for an opening on nice soft mats. But lets take the same technique and put them on asphalt or concrete, maybe some broken glass laying around, curbs, parked cars or multiple Bg's. The whole think changes dramatically.

In that environment the techniques need to work toward allowing the officer/individual to quickly regain their feet or take out the assailant while on the ground.

Plus the biggest consideration is weapons. Lets take Gracie and put him on the asphalt with a junkie with a hidden knife. Let Gracie do all the whiz bang stuff and see if he can prevent being slashed or stabbed. Nothing against Gracie or any practitoner of BJJ etc. But try it yourself with a training knife. Put it in your waste band and have someone try to do BJJ/grappling/submission techniques on you and see if you can get them with your knife before or even during the technique.

Remember the street poses much more problems of a much more serious nature. No safety equipment, no cushy surface, no referee, no time limit, no rules, possible multiple assailants and possible weapons [both hidden or accessable in the area].

Just things to think about.



:asian:

 

[KennethKu]

IMHO, BJJ is a mighty fine art. To those who poo-poo it, you can put your money where your mouth is and prove yourself in the ring. Sure beat the hell outta arguing over the internet here, wouldn't you say?

BJJ never claims to beat multiple attackers. BJJ is practiced diferently, inside the ring vs outside the ring. It does train to counter weapon attack. With all due respect, people should refrain from offering half baked opinions based what they see on TV.

BTW, I have to LMAO at the often repeated, but totally misleading remark that TKD's "flashy high kicks" cannot be performed unless you are all warmed up and in your gi. That cannot be farther away from the truth. There are countless TKD practitioners who can execute "flashy high kicks" in their jeans and in cold (no warm up). Hell, just about anyone can train to execute that. Try getting up early in the morning and PRACTICE! In a few months, you too could have gained the flexibility and strength to perform all these "flashy TKD high kicks". No miracle needed. Just DO IT! Simple as that. Don't take my words for it. Just try it yourself.

You would think that such a simple and obvious fact could NOT have been so distorted. Yet........ sigh! :shrug:

 

[A.R.K.]

To those who poo-poo it, you can put your money where your mouth is and prove yourself in the ring.

Ummm Ken....perhaps you should have actually read the title of this thread. It is BJJ really ready for the real world? I know that you are not experienced in this area, but please allow me to inform you that the ring is not the real world. The real world doesn't have rules and a referee and time outs and tap outs etc.

BJJ never claims to beat multiple attackers.

There are some BJJers that would disagree with you on this Ken.

BJJ is practiced diferently, inside the ring vs outside the ring.

Gee Ken...ya think :shrug: But there are still real world issues to be addressed, and have been in this thread. Perhaps you should reread it.

With all due respect, people should refrain from offering half baked opinions based what they see on TV.

Funny how these same individuals are the same ones that actually USE this stuff in their lives and jobs. Experience over theory Ken.

BTW, I have to LMAO at the often repeated, but totally misleading remark that TKD's "flashy high kicks" cannot be performed unless you are all warmed up and in your gi.

I suggest you try a nice flasy high kick against a violent and determined attacker Ken and see what happens. Let us know. A video would be great!

There are countless TKD practitioners who can execute "flashy high kicks" in their jeans and in cold (no warm up).

Really? On gravel, glass, wet or icy surfaces? Against a violent and determined attacker? I would really like to see a nice 'Jean Claude Van Dammne' kick against a real BG. Hell, even in the octogon you hardly see them. I did see one guy try it though in a kumite. In fact it was a video clip on this site. His opponent handed him his **** every time :rofl:

You would think that such a simple and obvious fact could NOT have been so distorted. Yet........ sigh!

My thoughts exactly