Is BJJ a TMA?

[skribs]

I think TMA is just an unhelpful label due to a lack of a concrete definition. Different people just have a "checklist" on what a TMA "might" have.

Here is a label that I invented that is what I think people wanted to have but didn't think of it: Skilled Trades Martial Arts (STMA).

The definition would be something like: A martial art that is taught under an apprenticeship model.

This is so much more useful because:

1. It categorizes martial arts based on a learning paradigm instead of a "style".
2. I don't recall ever seeing McDojos/Bullshidos operating under an apprenticeship model because that is bad business.
3. You can distinguish BJJ, Sanda, Muay Thai, etc... away from STMA, which TMA has failed to do, and I can tell a lot of people wanted to make that distinction but failed to do it cleanly.
   • Because if I ask: "Is Muay Thai a TMA? It's an Asian Martial Art after all. It has rituals." and of course, people will be like: "No! It... can't be! Muay Thai is effective; it can't be a TMA... even though it fits my definition of TMA. Damn it!"
4. Most shitty "TMA" schools just so happens to not be a STMA.

So, if we take the lineage of BJJ and trace it back to the founder of Judo, we might say that Jigoro Kano learned a STMA if he was an "apprentice" in arts like Kito-Ryu. Didn't he receive a Menkyo Kaiden, which is a license that means complete transmission?

Many old-school Japanese martial arts (Ko-ryu) would be STMA because they may have Uchi-deshi (“Inside student”).

Chinese martial arts were "traditionally" the same way, where they also have the concept of an "inside student". Deshi is the same character as Tudi or Dizi in Chinese. Although people often use the word "disciple", I think the word "apprentice" is easier for the average person to understand.

In Chinese culture, Baishi is the process to become an "apprentice" in Chinese martial arts, as well as many other disciplines such as Traditional Chinese Medicine, certain musical instruments, tea ceremony, blacksmithing, etc...

This is why the idea of "secrets" is associated with some "TMA" because skilled trades have "trade secrets". That is true for lots of skilled trades, not just STMA.

Even in Thailand, where there's Muay Thai, it's possible (I need to be fact-checked here) that Muay Boran had an apprenticeship model? I am unsure, but their equivalent of "Baishi" seems to be called Wai khru?

Many martial arts schools today are taught to large groups instead of small, private discipleship settings. This shift parallels how education evolved, from individual tutoring (apprenticeship model) to public schools and universities (institutional model).

Example: In the past, scholars studied under a personal master (example: Plato studying under Socrates), but today, universities mass-educate thousands using structured courses. Similarly, martial arts went from closed-door discipleship to mass instruction at schools and sports clubs.

I think my invented label, STMA, is what people wished they could use but didn't think of it.

The "Tradition" in many stereotypical "TMA" is basically about apprenticeship. This tradition predates the martial arts themselves and is not unique to martial arts. Even in Medieval Europe, they had guild systems where you went through the stages of apprenticeship, then you became a journeyman, and then you could become a "master" if you made a masterpiece.

So, under my clean-cut definition, BJJ wouldn't be a "STMA" because you don't normally learn BJJ by becoming someone's apprentice.

I disagree. You can teach any martial art with either method. You can have BJJ taught in the apprenticeship style or the university style.

My TKD training is university style, but my TKD leadership training was apprenticeship style, from the same school/Master.

 

[Teapot]

I disagree. You can teach any martial art with either method. You can have BJJ taught in the apprenticeship style or the university style.

My TKD training is university style, but my TKD leadership training was apprenticeship style, from the same school/Master.

I don't think that's a legitimate disagreement because you quoted me saying:

1. It categorizes martial arts based on a learning paradigm instead of a "style".

So you could teach BJJ as an apprenticeship paradigm.

But is that the norm?

 

[skribs]

I don't think that's a legitimate disagreement because you quoted me saying:



So you could teach BJJ as an apprenticeship paradigm.

But is that the norm?

I don't think apprentice style is the norm for any martial art these days.

It's like trying to catalog different varieties of apples by whether or not they're a fruit.

 

[Teapot]

I don't think apprentice style is the norm for any martial art these days.

It's like trying to catalog different varieties of apples by whether or not they're a fruit.

Sure, but if we want to talk about "tradition", that was the tradition for many martial arts. BJJ doesn't really have that tradition.

Someone who practices BJJ probably won't understand or relate to this concept, but someone who practices Koryu probably would - even in today's time. You couldn't think of any martial art where that's the norm, but isn't that not the norm for koryu? Think how often Aikido gets talked about... and think how little Daito-Ryu Aiki-Jujutsu gets talked about. Think how much smaller the community of Daito-Ryu (where Aikido came from) is compared to Aikido.

You're right that it's not the norm for many martial arts, but... You know what else is the norm? Commercialized, low-quality martial arts schools that people call "Traditional" martial arts.

You can say that this paradigm of apprenticeship isn't popular nowadays; they're very rare. But you are not able to argue that this wasn't how many (not all) "traditional" martial arts were taught.

The apprenticeship paradigm is not compatible with making a lot of money. It's not scalable.

To use your apple analogy, an apple 100 years ago, although smaller, was much more nutritious than apples nowadays.

 

[skribs]

Sure, but if we want to talk about "tradition", that was the tradition for many martial arts. BJJ doesn't really have that tradition.

Someone who practices BJJ probably won't understand or relate to this concept, but someone who practices Koryu probably would - even in today's time. You couldn't think of any martial art where that's the norm, but isn't that not the norm for koryu? Think how often Aikido gets talked about... and think how little Daito-Ryu Aiki-Jujutsu gets talked about. Think how much smaller the community of Daito-Ryu (where Aikido came from) is compared to Aikido.

You're right that it's not the norm for many martial arts, but... You know what else is the norm? Commercialized, low-quality martial arts schools that people call "Traditional" martial arts.

You can say that this paradigm of apprenticeship isn't popular nowadays; they're very rare. But you are not able to argue that this wasn't how many (not all) "traditional" martial arts were taught.

The apprenticeship paradigm is not compatible with making a lot of money. It's not scalable.

To use your apple analogy, an apple 100 years ago, although smaller, was much more nutritious than apples nowadays.

There are no common martial arts where apprentice style is the norm, because in order to fit your definition of a STMA, it would have to be non-marketable. So you've created a marketing term for a market that by definition can't exist. Because if there were a market for it, the training would change into the university-style you're discussing.

 

[isshinryuronin]

Sure, but if we want to talk about "tradition", that was the tradition for many martial arts. BJJ doesn't really have that tradition.

The days of uchi deshi (master>select private student) being the main way of teaching ended in the 1920's. But it still exists when a senior black belt (often retired) finds someone he finds worthy of spending his time on, usually at no cost. Also, while teaching classes of dojo students, a master would have a couple of house students to privately teach. Both can coincide with the same teacher.

Think how much smaller the community of Daito-Ryu (where Aikido came from) is compared to Aikido.

I think this comes down to marketing. Aiki-ju-jutsu is presented more of a combat art with strikes still present. Aikdo is presented as a way of peace and harmony, generally with larger flowing movements, and had a larger audience that found this more appealing to them, along with demos of people being swung around and sent flying into the air with little or no effort.

Commercialized, low-quality martial arts schools that people call "Traditional" martial arts.

There can be no argument that the commercialization of TMA had an effect on the traditions. But that does not imply low-quality, though that is often the case. A knowledgeable instructor that appreciates TMA can find an effective balance.

The apprenticeship paradigm is not compatible with making a lot of money. It's not scalable.

This is very true. A master does not take on a deshi for profit.

The definition would be something like: A martial art that is taught under an apprenticeship model.

Two things wrong with this definition: Firstly, a TMA can be taught in a class setting as it has for the past 100 years. Secondly, this definition leaves out any consideration of tradition., which of course is fundamental for a TMA.

 

[Teapot]

There are no common martial arts where apprentice style is the norm, because in order to fit your definition of a STMA, it would have to be non-marketable. So you've created a marketing term for a market that by definition can't exist. Because if there were a market for it, the training would change into the university-style you're discussing.

Who said my goal was to market it?

There are martial arts that are family arts, passed down from father to son. You think they cared about markets?

I just created a label, but I didn't say I want this label to entice people around the world to learn it.

 

[skribs]

Who said my goal was to market it?

There are martial arts that are family arts, passed down from father to son. You think they cared about markets?

I just created a label, but I didn't say I want this label to entice people around the world to learn it.

I don't know of any martial arts that were only passed down from father to son, and that doesn't even fit your older definition of it being a master and apprentice. You don't have enough reality for me to argue with, so I'm just going to leave this part of the conversation now.

 

[Teapot]

I don't know of any martial arts that were only passed down from father to son, and that doesn't even fit your older definition of it being a master and apprentice. You don't have enough reality for me to argue with, so I'm just going to leave this part of the conversation now.

Well... that sounds like a you problem.

Take Taijiquan for example. That is a family art.

As for the definition, this requires Chinese context where fu in Shifu means "father". To Baishi under someone it is akin to being the adopted son under that person.


But apparently Taijiquan isn't a family art because you didn't know this.

 

[Teapot]

Two things wrong with this definition: Firstly, a TMA can be taught in a class setting as it has for the past 100 years. Secondly, this definition leaves out any consideration of tradition., which of course is fundamental for a TMA.

Is the idea that apprentices learning in a class setting not a thing?

As for tradition... that's a strange thing to say. Apprentices do not learn the tradition from their master's craft?

 

[windwalker099]

Well... that sounds like a you problem.

Take Taijiquan for example. That is a family art.

As for the definition, this requires Chinese context where fu in Shifu means "father". To Baishi under someone it is akin to being the adopted son under that person.


But apparently Taijiquan isn't a family art because you didn't know this.

It does seem strange that some people might not understand the foundations of CMA traditions and history.
Interesting, considering the topic. .

abridged version of one such account:


"Yangjia Michuan Taijiquan should have been transmitted and taught to Yang
Chengfu. But when Chengfu was young (twenties?) he felt that his father's
training was too difficult. He left the family compound and tried to get into another
school. Everyone laughed at him, saying: your father and grandfather are so
famous and you want to come to our school?

It was as if Chengfu wanted to forget what family he came from, but nobody
would allow him to forget. So he went back to his family and started again.
Because this happened, his father felt differently about him.

Jianhou wondered how his son could have left in the first place. Something in Jianhou's heart had
changed.

Yangjia Michuan Taijiquan was not something that was taught to many
students. It was taught to just one person -only to one who would keep it and
pass it on."

 

[Badhabits]

Wasn't it common in Okinawa for a family's martial art to only be taught to the oldest son?