bjj is derived from judo

Andy Moynihan

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Good point...sankaku means triangle in Japanese. But the rear naked choke (mata leao in Portguese) I believe is actually called Hadaka Jime in Japanese. Hadaka means naked. Juji means "cross" which is why the armbar (armeloque in Portuguese) is called "Juji Gatame".


You got it--Rear naked choke=Hadaka Jime( So named as it's the one major choke in Judo which uses no part of the gi for leverage).

Juji-jime has 3 or so variations as to hand placement but it's the one where you use the gi collars with both hands/elbows in a front cross choke( hence "Juji-Jime").
 
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jarrod

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yes, you are both correct, i meant hadake jime!
 

Tez3

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Judo has been known in the UK for quite a long time now, certainly pre World War 2. for a very long time Judo was the only martial known and practiced here.
From the British Judo Associations site.


Judo in Britain
With the intention of establishing a ju-jutsu school in England, Mr E W Barton Wright sponsored a visit in 1899 of a team of Japanese judo experts. The project failed but those who stayed took to the stage to earn a living. Best known among them was Yukio Tani, who toured music halls offering challengers 瞿1 per minute for every minute they lasted beyond five and 瞿50 if they defeated him. The prize money was rarely (if ever) paid. Over the following decade or so many Japanese "showmen" performed on stages around the country performing frivolous tricks linked with ju-jutsu. For all their showmanship, these men were very capable ju-jutsu players. Their real contribution to the growth of judo outside Japan was made in the books they published and the instruction they gave.
Tani remained in England after his compatriots had returned home and in 1920 was formally appointed chief instructor to a new club for "the study of systems developed by the samurai":the Budokwai. Neither he nor the club's founder Gunji Koizumi, could have foreseen that they were creating an institution soon to become the most famous judo school outside Japan.

The Budokwai club was formed in 1918.

http://www.budokwai.co.uk/

This man is an unsung hero of martial arts.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_William_Barton-Wright
 

punisher73

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Yes, yes.

But it must be remembered that Kimura only did this after Helio choked Japan's second rated Judo fighter, "Kato" completely unconcious when Kato outweighed him by at least forty pounds. Kimura outweighed him by even more than that, and it took him a while to beat Gracie.

That was pointed out to show the Gracie marketing approach. When Royce first entered on the UFC they touted it as never being beaten in competition. It is also pointed out that this is how the whole "Kosen Judo" movement began as well. Helio got beat plain and simple. If the match had not been held on soft mats to cushion the throws it would not have gone on that long.

The Kodokan was undefeated in their matches. When they fought against the Kosen school, they did not fight them where Judo had the superior skills and throws to win. The kosen school basically flopped into guard and the kodokan members did not know what to do. This is when Kano started to study and incorporate the groundfighting.
 

D Dempsey

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Helio got beat plain and simple. If the match had not been held on soft mats to cushion the throws it would not have gone on that long.

I think the mats are kind of irrelevant since he was soundly defeated by Kimura when his arm broke, that and Helio has admitted that Kimura choked him out within the first few minutes but they kept going after that.

The Kodokan was undefeated in their matches. When they fought against the Kosen school, they did not fight them where Judo had the superior skills and throws to win. The kosen school basically flopped into guard and the kodokan members did not know what to do. This is when Kano started to study and incorporate the groundfighting.

Replace KOSEN with Fusen Ryu and this would be completely correct. The KOSEN movement really did not get going until around the 1920s.
 
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jarrod

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Judo has been known in the UK for quite a long time now, certainly pre World War 2. for a very long time Judo was the only martial known and practiced here.
From the British Judo Associations site.


Judo in Britain
With the intention of establishing a ju-jutsu school in England, Mr E W Barton Wright sponsored a visit in 1899 of a team of Japanese judo experts. The project failed but those who stayed took to the stage to earn a living. Best known among them was Yukio Tani, who toured music halls offering challengers 瞿1 per minute for every minute they lasted beyond five and 瞿50 if they defeated him. The prize money was rarely (if ever) paid. Over the following decade or so many Japanese "showmen" performed on stages around the country performing frivolous tricks linked with ju-jutsu. For all their showmanship, these men were very capable ju-jutsu players. Their real contribution to the growth of judo outside Japan was made in the books they published and the instruction they gave.
Tani remained in England after his compatriots had returned home and in 1920 was formally appointed chief instructor to a new club for "the study of systems developed by the samurai":the Budokwai. Neither he nor the club's founder Gunji Koizumi, could have foreseen that they were creating an institution soon to become the most famous judo school outside Japan.

The Budokwai club was formed in 1918.

http://www.budokwai.co.uk/

This man is an unsung hero of martial arts.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_William_Barton-Wright

speaking of brit judo, i often wonder what would have happened if neil adams entered the 1st ufc...

jf
 

Tez3

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speaking of brit judo, i often wonder what would have happened if neil adams entered the 1st ufc...

jf

I was watching him a couple of years ago at Seni and the scary thing is he could still enter the UFC! he's still fast and aggressive!
 
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jarrod

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I was watching him a couple of years ago at Seni and the scary thing is he could still enter the UFC! he's still fast and aggressive!

my coach knows him & speaks very highly of him. in fact, he said that if i ever wanted to travel internationally to study judo, he recommended going to the UK & finding mr. adams rather than traveling to japan.

jf
 
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Tez3

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my coach knows him & speaks very highly of him. in fact, he said that if i ever wanted to travel internationally to study judo, he recommended going to the UK & finding mr. adams rather than traveling to japan.

jf

That would be cool then you could come and train with all of us over here!! Neil I know does seminars for MMA as well as the 'normal' judo ones.
 
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jarrod

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that would be very, very cool. when i make it to england i will look you up!

jf
 

allenjp

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That was pointed out to show the Gracie marketing approach. When Royce first entered on the UFC they touted it as never being beaten in competition. It is also pointed out that this is how the whole "Kosen Judo" movement began as well. Helio got beat plain and simple. If the match had not been held on soft mats to cushion the throws it would not have gone on that long.

The Kodokan was undefeated in their matches. When they fought against the Kosen school, they did not fight them where Judo had the superior skills and throws to win. The kosen school basically flopped into guard and the kodokan members did not know what to do. This is when Kano started to study and incorporate the groundfighting.

Yes, Helio got beat, plain and simple. I conceed that point. Do you conceed that he also choked Kato unconcious on a canvas first? And walked away nonchlantly while they were trying to revive Kato?

If you're point is simply that they said they were undefeated when they knew it wasn't totally true, then you're right. But I think what they were actually saying was that they were undefeated against other styles, while they still considered Kimura to be of their same style.

This whole thing about the Gracies' "marketing approach" has been bothering me lately. Everyone who wants to criticize BJJ always mentions the Gracies' "marketing approach".

Have the Gracies hyped their style? Yes, of course they have. Are they the only ones to have done that? Of course not. Have they made outrageous claims about their style and its capabilities? Yes. But they are not the only ones to have done that either.

The one thing the Gracies have done for a long time now, that I have not seen anyone else do, is document their claims with video after video after video, usually of them destroying people from other styles. And they are not the only BJJ practitioners to have made those videos. Many others have now done the same.

If you want to say that those videos are all staged, that's on you. I personally think that staging that amount of videos, with the real violence that is obvious on them would be impossible.

Are the Gracies invincible? Of course not. Sakuraba proved that point very well. Are their limitations to BJJ? Yes, there are many. Weapons, and multiple opponents are a couple of obvious ones. But I think that what they have shown is that in a one on one, unarmed fight, not necessarily on a favourable surface although that is of course preferable, BJJ is hard to beat. Not impossible to beat, not invincible, but pretty hard to beat. If you don't think that is true, go down to your local BJJ dojo, and train with them. We are always willing. You may be surprised.

On your other point about soft mats, I say this: Even on a hard surface, if someone just lays on their back, what are you going to do? You can't throw them, and I think that the techniques that BJJ teaches for defending oneself on the ground against a standing opponent are very effective. You are going to have to get down there with them at some point if you are going to attack them. The Gracies have a video out of them fighting members of a Karate school in Brazil on tile. It was not a problem for them. They destroyed the Karate practitioners one by one. I agree with you that a well placed throw onto a hard surface can end a fight in one stroke, and would be better, if you can pull it off, than going to the ground. But BJJ is not useless just for being on a hard surface.

Personally I think that Judo and BJJ are two peas in a pod. I am proud of the Judo heritage that I share with many others. And I think that many BJJ dojos would be all that much better if they emphasized throws and standing techniques more. My son trains both Gracie Barra BJJ, and traditional Kodokan Judo. And I think it is a tremedous advantage for him. We have a Kodokan BB in our BJJ class and he is our best fighter. I train Judo techniques whenever I can. But I also think that many Kodokan dojos would benefit greatly by focusing on their ground game a little more. And I always seem to sense this anamocity from many Judo practitioners toward BJJ and I have not been able to figure out why.

Sorry about the long post.
 

punisher73

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Yes, Helio got beat, plain and simple. I conceed that point. Do you conceed that he also choked Kato unconcious on a canvas first? And walked away nonchlantly while they were trying to revive Kato?

If you're point is simply that they said they were undefeated when they knew it wasn't totally true, then you're right. But I think what they were actually saying was that they were undefeated against other styles, while they still considered Kimura to be of their same style.

My point was that when it was first "advertised" in this country. It was always that it was undefeated in competition. I don't think that they were implying that Kimura was of the same style at all. Most of the early accounts I read about the fight were how Kimura was SO MUCH bigger than Helio (height and weight). Yet if you watch the video they are about the same height, although it does appear Kimura was heavier.

Here is a clip of the fight, I believe it is narrated by Rorion. Listen to his "spin" on things. This is what I mean by their marketing, that is what I don't like.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mSPL2BFepgU&feature=related

Helio fought Kato and was bigger than him in height/weight and it was such a big victory. Now, in the narration of the Kimura fight, they state that Helio KNEW he was going to lose the fight, but wanted to see what Kimura had. Then he goes on to say that if they were in the same weight class Helio would have won it. When Rickson lost in a Sambo tournament, there were excuses on him not knowing the rules. He lost plain and simple. When Royce got beat down by Matt Hughes it was Hughes only beat him by using BJJ. All of the "special rules" that they put into place for some of their Pride fights. When BJJ stylists started to lose in competitions on a more regular basis, I would hear how the BJJ person isn't REALLY using BJJ, they are only using a part of it for competition and not using it's strategies. Or it would be that the other person won because they used BJJ strategies.

I respect their contributions for what they have done, but what I do NOT like is how they belittle everyone else when they lose and make up excuses. I have NEVER heard one of them say that they lost because the other guy was a better fighter.

I have trained in BJJ and enjoy watching it, so I do not have anything against it as a style (money/time issues). But, it is the person that wins NOT the style. If I came down and beat your top guy, would you say that I was the better fighter or would you say that my style was better than yours?

The "soft mat" reference was a comment about Helio getting thrown several times, NOT on how BJJ works on a hard surface I understand the basic of BJJ and have some experience in it.

Personally I think that Judo and BJJ are two peas in a pod. I am proud of the Judo heritage that I share with many others. And I think that many BJJ dojos would be all that much better if they emphasized throws and standing techniques more. My son trains both Gracie Barra BJJ, and traditional Kodokan Judo. And I think it is a tremedous advantage for him. We have a Kodokan BB in our BJJ class and he is our best fighter. I train Judo techniques whenever I can. But I also think that many Kodokan dojos would benefit greatly by focusing on their ground game a little more. And I always seem to sense this anamocity from many Judo practitioners toward BJJ and I have not been able to figure out why.

I agree completely with that. As I understand it, many of the early BJJ blackbelts also held blackbelts in Kodokan Judo. I know that Rolls Gracie, who most consider the best Gracie ever, crosstrained with Sambo, Judo and Wrestlers all the time. He incorporated things that would make his GJJ stronger and trained them. My only exposure to Judo was at a club that taught stand up throws one night, and the ne waza on another night, it was very balanced.

I think that Judo and now BJJ are started to suffer from the "sport only" aspect. Judo concentrated on only throws mainly in many places and lost the ground game, and many BJJ schools only train from their knees for sport competition.
 

allenjp

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My point was that when it was first "advertised" in this country. It was always that it was undefeated in competition. I don't think that they were implying that Kimura was of the same style at all. Most of the early accounts I read about the fight were how Kimura was SO MUCH bigger than Helio (height and weight). Yet if you watch the video they are about the same height, although it does appear Kimura was heavier.

Here is a clip of the fight, I believe it is narrated by Rorion. Listen to his "spin" on things. This is what I mean by their marketing, that is what I don't like.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mSPL2BFepgU&feature=related

Helio fought Kato and was bigger than him in height/weight and it was such a big victory. Now, in the narration of the Kimura fight, they state that Helio KNEW he was going to lose the fight, but wanted to see what Kimura had. Then he goes on to say that if they were in the same weight class Helio would have won it. When Rickson lost in a Sambo tournament, there were excuses on him not knowing the rules. He lost plain and simple. When Royce got beat down by Matt Hughes it was Hughes only beat him by using BJJ. All of the "special rules" that they put into place for some of their Pride fights. When BJJ stylists started to lose in competitions on a more regular basis, I would hear how the BJJ person isn't REALLY using BJJ, they are only using a part of it for competition and not using it's strategies. Or it would be that the other person won because they used BJJ strategies.

I respect their contributions for what they have done, but what I do NOT like is how they belittle everyone else when they lose and make up excuses. I have NEVER heard one of them say that they lost because the other guy was a better fighter.

I have trained in BJJ and enjoy watching it, so I do not have anything against it as a style (money/time issues). But, it is the person that wins NOT the style. If I came down and beat your top guy, would you say that I was the better fighter or would you say that my style was better than yours?

The "soft mat" reference was a comment about Helio getting thrown several times, NOT on how BJJ works on a hard surface I understand the basic of BJJ and have some experience in it.



I agree completely with that. As I understand it, many of the early BJJ blackbelts also held blackbelts in Kodokan Judo. I know that Rolls Gracie, who most consider the best Gracie ever, crosstrained with Sambo, Judo and Wrestlers all the time. He incorporated things that would make his GJJ stronger and trained them. My only exposure to Judo was at a club that taught stand up throws one night, and the ne waza on another night, it was very balanced.

I think that Judo and now BJJ are started to suffer from the "sport only" aspect. Judo concentrated on only throws mainly in many places and lost the ground game, and many BJJ schools only train from their knees for sport competition.

I agree with many of your points. OF COURSE they always skew things from a certain perspective. They are competitive and they are trying to hype up their system. Many people from other styles/schools/families do the same thing. How many people have you seen out there touting "lethal" techniques? Or how about the infamous Ki master? The difference between those people and the Gracies is that they actually have won most of their fights, and documented it on video. Not all, but most. As fas as never hearing a Gracie say he lost to a better fighter, you are right, that is a rare thing to hear. I did hear Renzo say it when he lost to Sakuraba though. And one must admit that their system has revolutionised the MA community all over the world. Partly because of hype, but mostly because of the effectiveness of their system in certain situations (one on one, unarmed). Everyone started learning BJJ techniques to compete in the early UFC. That wasn't necessarily the only style they trained, but most guys in the UFC both then and now at least cross train SOME BJJ. There is a reason for that.

Not all of my comments were directed at you. I quoted you because your mentioning the words "marketing scheme" reminded me of so many others that I have heard use that as a crticism of the art.

If you came to my dojo and beat my top guy I would say you were the better fighter, not that you had the better art. I do agree that it is the fighter and not the style that determines the outcome, and many times it comes down to luck. But this particular art is based on principles which make sense, and to my knowledge there is no other style that has so much video documentation of its practitioners beating so many practioners of so many different styles.

And I do agree that both the Kodokan and Gracie versions of Judo/Jujutsu have been diluted by the sport versions. This is actually the source of somewhat of a rift between Rorion's Gracie Academy, and some other BJJ org's because Rorion says that the others only train for tourneys, and the others say that he is only saying that for marketing reasons.
 

D Dempsey

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Here is a clip of the fight, I believe it is narrated by Rorion. Listen to his "spin" on things. This is what I mean by their marketing, that is what I don't like.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mSPL2BFepgU&feature=related

Helio fought Kato and was bigger than him in height/weight and it was such a big victory. Now, in the narration of the Kimura fight, they state that Helio KNEW he was going to lose the fight, but wanted to see what Kimura had. Then he goes on to say that if they were in the same weight class Helio would have won it. When Rickson lost in a Sambo tournament, there were excuses on him not knowing the rules. He lost plain and simple. When Royce got beat down by Matt Hughes it was Hughes only beat him by using BJJ. All of the "special rules" that they put into place for some of their Pride fights. When BJJ stylists started to lose in competitions on a more regular basis, I would hear how the BJJ person isn't REALLY using BJJ, they are only using a part of it for competition and not using it's strategies. Or it would be that the other person won because they used BJJ strategies.
These are all very valid points that you have brought up, but these can all pretty much be attributed to one person... Rorion Gracie.
 

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