IP Techniques: Do We Need Them?

[Twin Fist]

Well, in kaju, all branches are accepted and embraced and all are considered kaju equally.

Because Sijo appointed people as heads of the various styles, all within the system of Kajukenbo.

the great mistake Ed Parker made was in not appointing a chain of command under him.

 

[Doc]

Soooo...Mr.Parker never set up a specific inflexible "ideal" tech for "Motion-based Kenpo" but spoke extensively of the principles of CREATING a primary scenario from which we are to explore using his techs and our ideas combined as a base? He NEVER created a "fixed" ideal? That's revolutionary info to quite a few people,I would guess.I count myself among the numer of people finding this info to be revolutionary.

The technique manuals were originally a part of the "Big Red" business manual/guide that school owners were given, or should I say purchased. They a simple guide for them to work from to give them a base idea to begin the process of creating "ideals' for their students. The Web Of Knowledge was to give them the tactical assaults to consider, and the technique manuals the beginning of the answers to the questions. Instructors were to answer those questions to their satisfaction using Mr. Parker ideas and principles. The whole idea of creating "motion-based" Kenpo was because he couldn't be on the floor everywhere to teach everyone. That was impossible.

Let's take say Captured Twigs as an example.Exactly as you stated,the techs as written ARE NOT WORKABLE.I assume that Mr. Parker is the sole or at least primary author of these techs and most of their names,etc. My main problem is...even the attacks I saw him executing tech responses to on film were of the unrealistic,"ideal" variety.With his experience,I don't accept that he couldn't or didn't know far more realistic ways to address whatever base scenarios he faced using his techs. I mean from the perspective of the attacker AND the defender.Furthermore,I assume that the people who came to him from various other systems are somewhat proficient themselves,and while I completely agree with much of the printed word and with what I understand the end result/goal of the various ideas and principles are,the movements that are purported to reach that goal immediately ring my THAT ISH SUCKS radar. Perhaps this is the result of the horrific dilution of Kenpo as it moved away from its functional roots,but...I for one absolutely think that the whole of this would have been averted by simply using the common sense and extremely commonly known solution of starting off with techs and counters to techs that obviously work against the most common and plausible attacks from jump street.Showing stuff that works is THE BEST WAY to keep your message clear and your principles deeply embedded in whatever successive students you have.Nobody forgot how to throw jabs and hooks because Cus D'amato passed away,and nobody lost the importance of jabbing and hooking or creating better and better ways to jab,hook,etc. after the sad event of Cus's passing too.

In other words? If Mr. Parker knew that the stuff he spoke about didn't coincide with the stuff he knew,and that the stuff is unworkable? Mr. Parker should've started with stuff that worked...as the best demonstration of the control group and the principles and extrapolation and allat other stuff too. I don't see how such a elementary decision could have slipped by him or anyone else. I had a brown belt from hapkido join up with me last week. I simply showed him the stuff that works.That's what made everything else work too. Showed him how to use his rolling skills better,both combatively and for calisthenics.Mr. Parker could have simply shown stuff that works when demo'ing his techs instead of stuff that's clearly suspect,like this right here which he did with Huk Planas:

http://youtu.be/zAo3CBTYug4


If Mr. Parker didn't create a consistent expression for his "fixed ideal" then what is this that he's doing with Huk Planas? I'm not doubting your word,Doc...I'm trying to understand here. I like the idea that Mr.Parker never HIMSELF promoted a specific "fixed ideal" as THEE expression (maybe he demo'd AN expression but never believed in a set,inflexible "THEE" expression) of his principles,but he seems to have rather consistently over the years did the same or largely the same movements over and over again...and frankly the videos of the movements of uke that I saw him respond to are almost 100% unrealistic and the responses,as you correctly noted,"ARE UNWORKABLE". Soooo...why do such a thing EVER? Commercial Kenpo or not...it should still work. Kenpo has a great deal in common with most Chinese,Korean and Japanese systems...it takes very little work to bridge the gap between them.For instance,many of my TKD and TSD friends learn my ATACX GYM Kenpo strikes and they have a great time adding it to their TKD and TSD.They practice the self-defense techs and add their own spin to it.Only 1 of them in 14 years offered to merge with me,but literally dozens if not a few hundred instructor and Master rank guys have learned from me via seminars and just free sharing clinics (and in the process I learned alot from them) over the past 14 years and we had a great time.Very little conflict,and Kenpo fit well with them.Sooo even guys from other systems would be bowled over faster and in greater numbers if...the stuff obviously worked and could be demonstrated right off top as feasible.


See,you could demo something real world more slowly and then pick up the speed,and everybody could see it works for real.You never need to mess with the goofy stuff that doesn't work and all your principles,etc. would be intact. Boxers would slowly show a bob and weave on a guy trying to throw hooks and counter with say a uppercut and hook.They'd slip a jab and cross thrown at them, jab and cross done slowly,then show it at street speed.Omg it works. If the hard principles Mr. Parker showed you are indeed as potent as we trust your word that they are,and since functionality is a concept older than everyone under 10,000 years old...um...why didn't he just show THAT stuff from the gate? He doesn't even have to show his special secret weapons. Fact is...demos that work are ALSO demos that look good. So even drawing crowds to the art of Kenpo is answered by...doing stuff that works. It's just a matter of advertising the real deal stuff that you have...not advertising the unworkable stuff for any reason whatsoever.

Grappling is stifled by controlling the base? Show me please. Doesn't matter if I punch with the other hand? Show me that too,thanks! Love to see it.Ed Parker already knew it if he showed it to you,Doc.Soooo many laypersons, martial artists and police and soldiers etc. would be nodding their heads as Mr.Parker spoke about the wonders of Kenpo,or say the marketing and advertising wizards that comprise much of "commercial Kenpo" did the same.But then we break out with the kind of stuff that we just saw in the video with Huk Planas and then the peeps who were nodding their heads at our WORDS see our ACTIONS and say:"Waitaminnit...what izzis unworkable mess you're showing me after all that lovely verbiage and erudite yakkery about principles and stuff?"

If it works? Show it. Then it'll sell itself. But THIS mess? That mess won't work. All of us know it. Sure Mr. Parker is human and stuff and that's both a strength and failing that we all share...but he knew that stuff didn't work BEFORE he starting demo'ing it with Huk.So why do that stuff that you know doesn't work at all and why not show the stuff that works from jump street?

What you're missing is historical context. You look at that material and you see disfunction. Well, so do I and so did Mr. Parker when he looked at the footage later. Surely you had to know he changed and grew over the years. You're looking at video over 40 years old. Mr. Parker was in his early thirties. But when those video and film were shot back in the fifties and sixties, that was revolutionary material. You lack context. ALL the arts looked similar back-in-the-day. Mr. Parker's book on Kenpo Karate published in 1961 displayed his Kenpo when he first came to the mainland. Than Secrets of Chinese Kenpo, published two-years later showed something completely different. Mr. Parker was evolving from a teacher who never had a set curriculum, to writing down his own ideas of techniques on 3x5 cards, to creating technique manuals that went through refinements until the day he died.

If you compare that footage to the fifties footage of Mr. Parker you see a change in philosophy and execution away from more hands on material, to almost exclusively "striking," which the "motion-philosophy" fits. There is no such animal in grappling arts because they are grounded in the philosophy of execution beyond the hypothetical. In jiujitsu or judo, you can either throw or lock, or you can't. There is no, "I could have ....."

The martial disciplines were just working their way into the western hemisphere, mostly through the melting pot of Hawaii, and with the exception of each disciplines chosen focus, they all looked equally primitive.

I had the film footage of Bruce Lee's famous demo at the IKC. My students in the seventies and eighties would beg me to set up the projector so they could see it. Once I did, they were bored. All I heard was "Is that it?' While pretty dull stuff even by late seventies and eighties standards, Bruce's Chinese Arts demo was sophisticated compared to most of the heavily Japanese Influenced arts that dominated at the time in the mid-sixties, in comparison. Researching through martial arts books, like I have on my shelf, from the fifties and sixties will reveal the same primitive structures and execution.

People often wondered why Mr. Parker never put the "proper" way to do a technique on film to stop the bickering over the "right" way to do a set technique in his commercial system. Mr. Parker was evolving his material on multiple levels. While he massaged his commercial Kenpo Karate, he also continued to work on his personal kenpo, his intended "American Kenpo." The base philosophy of his commercial motion kenpo karate NEVER required it. It was designed to do the opposite. That was the job of all those black belts who were teaching. They were supposed to do the work, for their individual students. As long as their students performed to their teachers satisfaction, and the material worked for the students, than that is all the mattered.

After all, it was a business, and servicing as many people as possible was the goal. There was no way Mr. Parker could create a technique, and than disseminate changes when he evolved to something he felt was better, let alone teach everyone the intricacies of execution all over the planet by himself. Motion based Kenpo-Karate placed the emphasis squarely on the shoulders of those who ran their own schools, because it was their school, their business, their students, and their responsibility. Mr. Parker didn't own those school, they did. Mr. Parker only owned two schools at one time.

Further, Mr. Parker realized he was evolving and changed material all the time. He created a Basics book to sell back in the sixties. Volume One had Mr. Parker doing basics stances and blocks. By the time it was printed, and he looked at it, he had decided the blocks were wrong and made changes already. He never did another volume.

You look at that video and see disfunction. I sat with Mr. Parker while we looked at that footage in the seventies, and he was so disgusted with what he saw of himself, he got up and stomped out of the room, and vowed never to put himself on film.

He knew people would look at the material and not be open to change. They would use him as the model for what they were doing instead of thinking, after he himself had moved on. He hated looking at old footage of himself, and probably made the same observations you have made. He was his own harshest critic.

All the footage seen later of Mr. Parker was taken by someone else. He never formally shot forms or techniques to teach how something should be done, only the philosophy and concepts of execution. The older footage was usually to get a particular region of the country started and keep everyone on the same page, nothing more.

Unfortunately, the technique manuals were ultimately sold to students and then they became the standard of execution, rather than a basis to begin the process of thinking as he intended. It was easy. Just do what it says, even if it doesn't work. He and I had many arguments about his "kenpo-karate" and the plummeting standards. He always said the same thing, "It's their teachers fault, not mine."

Truth is, the many black belts that immigrated over, as well as most of the ones created by the system, let him down. The focus became money and rank, and they knew rank equalled more money if you ran a school. The higher rank, the more people you attracted, the more money you make. Rank became a part of the advertising. Martial Disciplines were never meant to be a business, because the philosophies of each clashes with the other, so it has always been a compromise from its inception.

Mr. Parker did the best he could with a situation that got out of his control. While his commercial art did its thing and made money for a lot of people, including him, he continued to perfect his craft on another level. Everyone saw it in seminars later, but few knew what he was doing, or how he did it because they were married to another concept, that Mr. Parker created only for a specific purpose of success. He sold the "motion," but that is not what he personally did.

 

[Doc]

Hey Doc,

I've seen this comment a number of times, and I don't have the background to know the specifics.

Could you list some of the people from those days, and what their background was coming into kenpo?

Go back to the era just before motion kenpo was created, and right after his first group of black belts. Virtually all of them. The rest of the modern day "seniors' were born in motion kenpo. Than the latest generation in the last decade or so, have recreated the trend, some through video and now add Kenpo to their school resume. The funny thing is, the latest generation to do that through video, looks as good or better than the originals that came up as the "motion" generation.

 

[Doc]

Well, in kaju, all branches are accepted and embraced and all are considered kaju equally.

Because Sijo appointed people as heads of the various styles, all within the system of Kajukenbo.

the great mistake Ed Parker made was in not appointing a chain of command under him.

We talked about that. Chain of command of what? What he had was a multi-national corporation where everyone had their differences, but they all had a level of allegiance to him, even if it was to get what they wanted. They all owned their own business or entity, and they only thing they got from Mr. Parker was the credibility of being a part of his organization and a sanctioning of rank. Without him personally, there was nothing. He was the glue that held all of these many factions from many eras, disciplines, and personalities together. Without him, you could have appointed anyone, and it would not have mattered.

 

[Twin Fist]

The funny thing is, the latest generation to do that through video, looks as good or better than the originals that came up as the "motion" generation.

it is just like you mentioned, time enhances everything, and todays people are much more technical and have many more resources available to them to learn from, so it is easier for them to achieve the same level of technical skill

tho i still say you only REALLY learn from time on the mat

 

[Doc]

it is just like you mentioned, time enhances everything, and todays people are much more technical and have many more resources available to them to learn from, so it is easier for them to achieve the same level of technical skill

tho i still say you only REALLY learn from time on the mat

On that sir, we definitely agree.

 

[Twin Fist]

We talked about that. Chain of command of what? What he had was a multi-national corporation where everyone had their differences, but they all had a level of allegiance to him, even if it was to get what they wanted. They all owned their own business or entity, and they only thing they got from Mr. Parker was the credibility of being a part of his organization and a sanctioning of rank. Without him personally, there was nothing. He was the glue that held all of these many factions from many eras, disciplines, and personalities together. Without him, you could have appointed anyone, and it would not have mattered.

Well, thats for sure, but one thing that Kaju does that Kenpo should have, was that each "branch" was recognized and the head of that branch was recognized by the founder, and granted the rank to run that branch.

would have helped (maybe) to avoid some of the uglier drama over the last 20 years

 

[Doc]

Well, thats for sure, but one thing that Kaju does that Kenpo should have, was that each "branch" was recognized and the head of that branch was recognized by the founder, and granted the rank to run that branch.

would have helped (maybe) to avoid some of the uglier drama over the last 20 years

Which in hindsight Parker wished he had done. He talked about creating different "families" on the same tree. This was not new, especially because Sijo Emperado was his senior, and gave Mr. Parker the bulk of his significant rank after he parted from Sifu Chow, and had done just that. But by the time he came to that realization it was too late. That branch of his Kenpo was out of control, and many of its practitioners had become so arrogant, they had no room for diverse opinions about anything. Even from within their own ranks. In fact, it hasn't changed that much, but I can remember the Sh•t storms I weathered for saying much of what I'm saying today, but some of the newer guard are only married to what's works, while the some of the older guys were married to their rank, and methods that generated prestige and/or money.

 

[Twin Fist]

that makes so much sense to me, i t really sounds like the man just had sooo many irons in the fire, he never got around to some of the things we really wanted to do

 

[ATACX GYM]

that makes so much sense to me, i t really sounds like the man just had sooo many irons in the fire, he never got around to some of the things we really wanted to do

I completely agree here...

 

[ATACX GYM]

The technique manuals were originally a part of the "Big Red" business manual/guide that school owners were given, or should I say purchased. They a simple guide for them to work from to give them a base idea to begin the process of creating "ideals' for their students. The Web Of Knowledge was to give them the tactical assaults to consider, and the technique manuals the beginning of the answers to the questions. Instructors were to answer those questions to their satisfaction using Mr. Parker ideas and principles. The whole idea of creating "motion-based" Kenpo was because he couldn't be on the floor everywhere to teach everyone. That was impossible.


What you're missing is historical context. You look at that material and you see disfunction. Well, so do I and so did Mr. Parker when he looked at the footage later. Surely you had to know he changed and grew over the years. You're looking at video over 40 years old. Mr. Parker was in his early thirties. But when those video and film were shot back in the fifties and sixties, that was revolutionary material. You lack context. ALL the arts looked similar back-in-the-day. Mr. Parker's book on Kenpo Karate published in 1961 displayed his Kenpo when he first came to the mainland. Than Secrets of Chinese Kenpo, published two-years later showed something completely different. Mr. Parker was evolving from a teacher who never had a set curriculum, to writing down his own ideas of techniques on 3x5 cards, to creating technique manuals that went through refinements until the day he died.

If you compare that footage to the fifties footage of Mr. Parker you see a change in philosophy and execution away from more hands on material, to almost exclusively "striking," which the "motion-philosophy" fits. There is no such animal in grappling arts because they are grounded in the philosophy of execution beyond the hypothetical. In jiujitsu or judo, you can either throw or lock, or you can't. There is no, "I could have ....."

The martial disciplines were just working their way into the western hemisphere, mostly through the melting pot of Hawaii, and with the exception of each disciplines chosen focus, they all looked equally primitive.

I had the film footage of Bruce Lee's famous demo at the IKC. My students in the seventies and eighties would beg me to set up the projector so they could see it. Once I did, they were bored. All I heard was "Is that it?' While pretty dull stuff even by late seventies and eighties standards, Bruce's Chinese Arts demo was sophisticated compared to most of the heavily Japanese Influenced arts that dominated at the time in the mid-sixties, in comparison. Researching through martial arts books, like I have on my shelf, from the fifties and sixties will reveal the same primitive structures and execution.

People often wondered why Mr. Parker never put the "proper" way to do a technique on film to stop the bickering over the "right" way to do a set technique in his commercial system. Mr. Parker was evolving his material on multiple levels. While he massaged his commercial Kenpo Karate, he also continued to work on his personal kenpo, his intended "American Kenpo." The base philosophy of his commercial motion kenpo karate NEVER required it. It was designed to do the opposite. That was the job of all those black belts who were teaching. They were supposed to do the work, for their individual students. As long as their students performed to their teachers satisfaction, and the material worked for the students, than that is all the mattered.

After all, it was a business, and servicing as many people as possible was the goal. There was no way Mr. Parker could create a technique, and than disseminate changes when he evolved to something he felt was better, let alone teach everyone the intricacies of execution all over the planet by himself. Motion based Kenpo-Karate placed the emphasis squarely on the shoulders of those who ran their own schools, because it was their school, their business, their students, and their responsibility. Mr. Parker didn't own those school, they did. Mr. Parker only owned two schools at one time.

Further, Mr. Parker realized he was evolving and changed material all the time. He created a Basics book to sell back in the sixties. Volume One had Mr. Parker doing basics stances and blocks. By the time it was printed, and he looked at it, he had decided the blocks were wrong and made changes already. He never did another volume.

You look at that video and see disfunction. I sat with Mr. Parker while we looked at that footage in the seventies, and he was so disgusted with what he saw of himself, he got up and stomped out of the room, and vowed never to put himself on film.

He knew people would look at the material and not be open to change. They would use him as the model for what they were doing instead of thinking, after he himself had moved on. He hated looking at old footage of himself, and probably made the same observations you have made. He was his own harshest critic.

All the footage seen later of Mr. Parker was taken by someone else. He never formally shot forms or techniques to teach how something should be done, only the philosophy and concepts of execution. The older footage was usually to get a particular region of the country started and keep everyone on the same page, nothing more.

Unfortunately, the technique manuals were ultimately sold to students and then they became the standard of execution, rather than a basis to begin the process of thinking as he intended. It was easy. Just do what it says, even if it doesn't work. He and I had many arguments about his "kenpo-karate" and the plummeting standards. He always said the same thing, "It's their teachers fault, not mine."

Truth is, the many black belts that immigrated over, as well as most of the ones created by the system, let him down. The focus became money and rank, and they knew rank equalled more money if you ran a school. The higher rank, the more people you attracted, the more money you make. Rank became a part of the advertising. Martial Disciplines were never meant to be a business, because the philosophies of each clashes with the other, so it has always been a compromise from its inception.

Mr. Parker did the best he could with a situation that got out of his control. While his commercial art did its thing and made money for a lot of people, including him, he continued to perfect his craft on another level. Everyone saw it in seminars later, but few knew what he was doing, or how he did it because they were married to another concept, that Mr. Parker created only for a specific purpose of success. He sold the "motion," but that is not what he personally did.

One helluva answer Doc.Thank you very much for providing crucial answers to issues that I had zero info about.Makes a LOT of sense.Of course you know that these answers in and of themselves give rise to a jillion others.I mean...a JILLION others. Like: what made Mr.Parker feel (correctly) that he could sell his Big Red or whatever to other school owners and that they would want it? Was this AFTER or BEFORE the IKC tournament? How'd he come up with the IKC? Why didn't he emphasize perpetual evolution so even if his students got all doofus (the exact same thing we saw famously happen to Bruce Lee's JKD)...the lesson would still be in perpetual evolution and Mr.Parker could still show himself gettin his film on and verbally stating on video,even,to expect his evolution to continue AND his students' evolution to continue...thus forestalling the crapganimousness.

But...that also gives rise to some questions that alotta peeps might find to be uncomfortable,to say the least.

Like: how is commercial Kenpo viable as a self-defense system AT ALL? If the blend of "whatever else"+EPAK="cash cow that gitcha *** kicked now Kenpo"...why would we want to use that? That would mean that a very sizable chuck of the the last 30 years was basically an exercise and crap multiplication...and most of the "grandmasters" that came to be are likewise feces.Especially since Mr.Parker's passing.thatcovers alot of ground.A WHOLE lotta ground.And where do the Tracys fit in all of this? And which branches of "motion-based Kenpo" are actually viable self-defense systems? How can we look up the officially sanctioned,true to the fact,for real First generation Ed Parker BBs and know that they were taught the "hard principles"? I mean...no disrespect...but all we have so far is Doc's word for stuff.While Doc's word is good enough for most of us? If someone were to challenge us on authenticated documented bare bone facts...we'd be up the creek cuz we ain't got none.So far.So how do we get them?

And how does all of this allow us to practice the ideal better (for those who want to) without sweating those of us like me who are NOT enthused with the ideal? I know that Doc made it clear that both my "functional" approach AND the "ideal" are correct...but what independent source do we have to verify that? Another senior EPAK black belt could just as persuasively argue something else,and this hypothetical senior BB might even have more seniority than Doc.

These are just the POLITE questions that spring to mind.I skipped the less polite stuff.Like: whaddup with all this focus on money,rep,and why would Mr. Parker...ah never mind.

 

[Flying Crane]

Go back to the era just before motion kenpo was created, and right after his first group of black belts. Virtually all of them.

I guess I was wondering if you know specifically who came from what background?

and I am understanding your comment to imply that the very first students in Utah and in Southern California, prior to say, the very early 1960s, did NOT necessarily come from other backgrounds, and Mr. Parker taught them basics and foundation the way he wanted it done at that time. Is this an accurate picture?

The rest of the modern day "seniors' were born in motion kenpo. Than the latest generation in the last decade or so, have recreated the trend, some through video and now add Kenpo to their school resume. The funny thing is, the latest generation to do that through video, looks as good or better than the originals that came up as the "motion" generation.

oh my...

 

[Thesemindz]

Ras, here are MY answers to your questions.

1. Commercial Motion Based Kenpo is viable because the system contains a huge amount of useful information. But it still takes a good, knowledgable instructor to use that information properly.

2. We don't want to use the "cash cow Kenpo." That's just mini-mall karate. We want to use high quality, functional, dynamic Kenpo. A high percentage of Kenpo is crap. I'm sure you've seen it on YouTube. That's their problem. It's OUR responsibility to do the best karate WE can do. The impurities don't diminish the value of the gold. They just get burned away.

3. As far as "masters" go, you know the real when you see it. Chapél, Conatser, Tatum, Pick, Sullivan, Trejo, Planas, Mills, Labounty, Kelly, White. There are others. The real are still out there, and they're still busting *** to stay that way. I'm sure there are many more we'll never even hear about because they stay on the grind instead of on the forums. Respect.

4. My understanding is that the Tracy's trained with Parker, made significant contributions to the motion system, and then left at a young age to pursue their own method.

5. I don't think there's any way to label Kenpo by branches. It's just become too generic a term. I think all you can do is judge individual schools and individual instructors. Some are amazing, some are crap. To feel is to believe.

In the end, I'm less concerned all the time with what the seniors think. As a group, they let us down. As individuals, some of them have a lot to share. When Doc or Conatser speaks up, I listen. Doesn't mean I practice their methods, but I try to learn from them. Learning is what we should be focused on.


-Rob

 

[Thesemindz]

I think the real answer to most of these questions is that tragically, Mr. Parker died young and suddenly. I think if he'd lived, things would be different. Maybe he would have gotten around to some of this if he'd had more time. That's too bad, but that's life. Maybe we'll see him again someday.


-Rob

 

[MJS]

One helluva answer Doc.Thank you very much for providing crucial answers to issues that I had zero info about.Makes a LOT of sense.Of course you know that these answers in and of themselves give rise to a jillion others.I mean...a JILLION others. Like: what made Mr.Parker feel (correctly) that he could sell his Big Red or whatever to other school owners and that they would want it? Was this AFTER or BEFORE the IKC tournament? How'd he come up with the IKC? Why didn't he emphasize perpetual evolution so even if his students got all doofus (the exact same thing we saw famously happen to Bruce Lee's JKD)...the lesson would still be in perpetual evolution and Mr.Parker could still show himself gettin his film on and verbally stating on video,even,to expect his evolution to continue AND his students' evolution to continue...thus forestalling the crapganimousness.

But...that also gives rise to some questions that alotta peeps might find to be uncomfortable,to say the least.

Like: how is commercial Kenpo viable as a self-defense system AT ALL? If the blend of "whatever else"+EPAK="cash cow that gitcha *** kicked now Kenpo"...why would we want to use that? That would mean that a very sizable chuck of the the last 30 years was basically an exercise and crap multiplication...and most of the "grandmasters" that came to be are likewise feces.Especially since Mr.Parker's passing.thatcovers alot of ground.A WHOLE lotta ground.And where do the Tracys fit in all of this? And which branches of "motion-based Kenpo" are actually viable self-defense systems? How can we look up the officially sanctioned,true to the fact,for real First generation Ed Parker BBs and know that they were taught the "hard principles"? I mean...no disrespect...but all we have so far is Doc's word for stuff.While Doc's word is good enough for most of us? If someone were to challenge us on authenticated documented bare bone facts...we'd be up the creek cuz we ain't got none.So far.So how do we get them?

And how does all of this allow us to practice the ideal better (for those who want to) without sweating those of us like me who are NOT enthused with the ideal? I know that Doc made it clear that both my "functional" approach AND the "ideal" are correct...but what independent source do we have to verify that? Another senior EPAK black belt could just as persuasively argue something else,and this hypothetical senior BB might even have more seniority than Doc.

These are just the POLITE questions that spring to mind.I skipped the less polite stuff.Like: whaddup with all this focus on money,rep,and why would Mr. Parker...ah never mind.

I'm not Doc, but......

I think it goes back to what I said in my last post. Mr. Parker left alot up to the people, to figure things out for themselves. Would things be different today, if he were still with us, as far as making changes? Who knows. But, in the meantime, you just do what ya have to do.

OTOH, I'd wager a bet that a good portion of the people in MA schools, really dont care or look at things as in depth as we do. You and I Ras, pretty much share the same ideas, so we're going to view things a hell of alot different than say a guy who's just looking for something to do after work, to lose weight, meet new people, etc. I've seen it countless times. Now, of course, you'll also have your schools which attract certain types of people. IIRC, Doc has said that a good portion if not all of his students, are Military, LEOs, etc, so yeah, their mindset is going to be more real deal and they will care what they're learning and how it works.

 

[ATACX GYM]

Ras, here are MY answers to your questions.

1. Commercial Motion Based Kenpo is viable because the system contains a huge amount of useful information. But it still takes a good, knowledgable instructor to use that information properly.

2. We don't want to use the "cash cow Kenpo." That's just mini-mall karate. We want to use high quality, functional, dynamic Kenpo. A high percentage of Kenpo is crap. I'm sure you've seen it on YouTube. That's their problem. It's OUR responsibility to do the best karate WE can do. The impurities don't diminish the value of the gold. They just get burned away.

3. As far as "masters" go, you know the real when you see it. Chapél, Conatser, Tatum, Pick, Sullivan, Trejo, Planas, Mills, Labounty, Kelly, White. There are others. The real are still out there, and they're still busting *** to stay that way. I'm sure there are many more we'll never even hear about because they stay on the grind instead of on the forums. Respect.

4. My understanding is that the Tracy's trained with Parker, made significant contributions to the motion system, and then left at a young age to pursue their own method.

5. I don't think there's any way to label Kenpo by branches. It's just become too generic a term. I think all you can do is judge individual schools and individual instructors. Some are amazing, some are crap. To feel is to believe.

In the end, I'm less concerned all the time with what the seniors think. As a group, they let us down. As individuals, some of them have a lot to share. When Doc or Conatser speaks up, I listen. Doesn't mean I practice their methods, but I try to learn from them. Learning is what we should be focused on.


-Rob

This is one helluva post,Rob.You,Flying Crane,my virtual philosophical and training twin MJS,and several others (of course Doc) have really put some excellent posts up.

Okay,this right here what I'm getting ready to say may offend some people.I'm not trying to offend anyone,but...I'm not especially concerned if anyone IS offended,either.With that disclaimer and spoiler warning/alert out of the way? Here we go:

Seems like Mr.Parker went in for the loot,perhaps cultivated a circle of people around him who felt that "their" version was authenticated by Mr.Parker the closer they were to him visavis the prestige that others in his select inner circle accorded; thus First Generation BBs felt themselves inherently superior to 2nd Gen BB's merely by proximity to Mr.Parker...when allat simply was NOT the case.Seems like Mr.Parker specifically chose the commercial model to popularize Kenpo and make loot.Basically,he got the loot and prestige of running an international,multilevel,money making conglomerate as its titular head...but never had to worry about the day to day concerns thereof.And then the various BBs he promoted to what would be the equivalent of VPs felt that they could and should strike out on their own; that their knowledge either was/is superior to Mr.Parker's or upon Mr.Parker's passing? Felt that their specific interpretation was superior to all others. Motion-Kenpo didn't get away...it did exactly what it was supposed to do.Get Mr.Parker paid and spread Kenpo's name.Inject tens if not hundreds of thousands of people worldwide with the basics of EPAK and encourage them to create their own expression therefrom.What nobody counted on was Mr.Parker's untimely passing and the impossibility of passing on the torch to Mr.Parker Jr.

Which means that EPAK is very much like Bruce's JKD...each of us were meant to have our own expression,everybody thought (erroneously) that the Founder's expression is TRUE Kenpo or JKD when the Founders never intended to be the primary expression of "true" martial art but instead they seemed to want to express THEMSELVES as best as they could using their concepts and precepts--which are more universal than they may appear to the uninitiated--and wanted us to do the same. So EPAK is a name.Only Ed Parker did Ed Parker's Kenpo. Exactly as Bruce did his own JKD.And Doc does HIS Kenpo,I do mine,and all of you do whatever you do.

So when we debate about the "ideal",many of us wind up talking about the specific relevance of the "ideal" to OUR OWN concept of what is "Ed Parker's American Kenpo". I understand that there are many here who wish to adhere to what they believe is as close an interpretation of Ed Parker's Kenpo as possible,and that's cool with me.Have fun with that.Me? I'm interested first and foremost in the combat effectiveness and real world street oriented scraptasticness of my (and by extension) others' training philosophy. So if your Delayed Sword doesn't look like mine? So? I don't give a damn about that,you guys and gals. I'm concerned about HOW EFFECTIVE it is and WHY you think it's effective and HOW YOU GOT THERE because...if we collab in what I called awhile ago a "Kenpo Lab"...hypothetically we'll come up with better solutions than any of us can find on our own. In keeping with the deep thinking that leads to the combat empiricism that Mr.Parker and Doc frequently allude to (Mr. Parker called Kenpo "the science of street fighting") if your stuff don't work? You don't have any scientific streetfighting...which means that you don't have KENPO.Ed Parker's or otherwise.


Which brings me squarely back to the OP of this thread.If it doesn't work? It's anus and should be trash binned.The starting idea was not for peeps to find something that doesn't work and somehow find wonderment and nobility in its failure to keep your anus intact when it's scrap time.There are NO benefits to having your anal region handed to you when you're studying these methods to keep your anal region intact,undamaged and immovably in its current location. The idea behind the "ideal" seems to be to encapsulate a real world street scenario and build techs around the concept of attacks and counters using Kenpo's unique movements+your own intellect and experience to successfully and speedily resolve the matter as a platform.Then from there you can explore all kinds of goodies.How can you explore those goodies? Because you dispatched the bad guy,kept your anus intact,and through the crucible of the mat experiences you have you began to note the deeper connections of mind and body and even spirit that occur from rigorous martial training DONE CORRECTLY. If your anus is damaged? There will be no exploration.If your MIND is DECEIVED (and oftentimes damaged as a result of this deception)? You can't make any true accurate valid explorations. You're adhering to illusion...and oftentimes you build this knee-jerk reflexive response to people pointing out the obvious.

The ideas behind the IP are great and NOT original to Mr.Parker.However,the IP's most common and prominent physical articulations sucks anus.Whether or not it's because the Motion Kenpo instructors didn't understand or give a damn about the intricacies that Mr.Parker was trying to impart isn't as important as understanding that the physical articulation of the IP is a fantastic expression of anal suckage. Defending such anal suckage perpetuates and proliferates anal suckitude.And some Kenpo folks are absolutely dedicated to being the very incarnation of anal sucktasticness.Now,if you found a way to make the IP work? It's NOT the IP.The split second it works? YOU MADE ADJUSTMENTS TO MAKE IT FUNCTIONAL.Exactly what you're supposed to do...the problem is? Too many "Kenpoists" have become converted to the Gospel of Nonfunctionality that their instructors were raised on and/or deliberately fed to them for the singlular purpose of welding those students to themselves and getting paid for it.It's part and parcel of every move,action,and everything.Quick: Name 5 Kenpo fighters who regularly and succesfully use The 5 Swords in high end competition! Quick now...name 10 of your Purple Belts routinely use 5 Swords during sparring? No answers? Didn't think so. The 5 Swords is a signature tech of Kenpo...like the jab is to boxing.Quick...name 5 high end boxers who jab regularly! Quick...name 5 or at least find video footage of 5 Amatuer boxers who use the jab (can you see competitions like THE GOLDEN GLOVE? You can? Okay then you can find THOUSANDS of amatuers who jab). That's my point.You gotta STRUGGLE to find peeps in Kenpo who can use the 5 Swords effectively,regularly,vs other Kenpoists and other stylists,etc.Not so with VIRTUALLY ANY OTHER MARTIAL ART. The system has the anal suckitude ingrained within it.Expunging such ingrained suckitude will requirean absolute focus on making the whole of Kenpo's TRAINING METHODS street functional.Kenpo's techs work fabulously when you train them with an eye toward performance.But stamping out the ingrained suckitude and inflexible dooficity embedded in the non-performance oriented crowd will require a relentless and almost Biblical thoroughness.Root and branch,folks.

The very fact that we're all effectively acknowledging that we can't do the "ideal" as shown as all the real world empirical denigration needed.If someone showed you a way to turn on your TV that DIDN'T turn on your TV...and they KNEW AHEAD OF TIME that it didn't? If someone claimed to fix your car but knew that they didn't fix it,charged you anyway,and you find out in the middle of a snowstorm 600 miles from home that you'd been duped? If you studied with someone who'd passed a test,knew the answers to pass the test,and deliberately furnished you with the wrong answers while claiming that they DID furnish you with the CORRECT answers? If someone knowingly showed you something that couldn't perform under the conditions they're claiming that it can,and you were duped into believing it until you found out (by dent of intellect or harsh reality) that it didn't? And then...when you called them on it...they had the absolute gall and unmitigated offensiveness to claim that you failed to understand the intricate in-depth lessons in learning stuff that DON'T WORK WHEN IT'S SUPPOSED TO WORK,and therefore YOU'RE AT FAULT? And they did all of this with a condescending arrogance to boot? You might feel called upon to make some impromptu readjustments of that person's anus...and understandably so.But this is exactly what the IP defenders and champions of the cause do when--after all their high falutin yakkitude--I simply reply with the irrefutable reality which is:

"But your techs DON'T WORK! Fight with these techs EXACTLY AS YOU SHOWED THEM TO ME AGAINST THE ATTACKS THAT THEY'RE SUPPOSED TO SUCCESSFULLY DEFEND AGAINST.You will have your anal area handed to you.You absolutely don't know what the hell you're talking about.You're not only a charlatan,but an ignorant insecure unintelligent immoral money grubbin egomaniacal one at that."

If someone deliberately,knowingly and purposefully beforehand presented something as truth which they knew was false...you know what we call that kind of person and behaviour?

We'd call that person a LIAR and what they were doing is LYING.

That's what's being done with the IP.Liars are lying.Straight up.So fix them as a whole and make them work.This is just the ESSENCE of common sense.There ya are.

--Ras,Head Coach of the ATACX GYM

 

[Twin Fist]

THE TECHNIQUES ARE IRRELEVANT

they exist ONLY to teach lessons

those lessons enable you to defend yourself

if you dont know the lessons, then NO, the techniques wont work

if you actually know what you are doing, you wont have a problem, you might not pull off a perfect 5 Swords, but it wont matter because the bad guy will still be in a coma.

arguing about weather or not the techniques themselves works sounds a lot like:
1) "i think i am smarter than ed parker, see his stuff doesnt work"
2) "i am a total bad ***, see how awesome i am?"

and it is, frankly, boring

stop bitching about wether or not it works and practice practice practice, and before you know it, BOOM< it works

not directed at anyone in particular

 

[ATACX GYM]

THE TECHNIQUES ARE IRRELEVANT

they exist ONLY to teach lessons

those lessons enable you to defend yourself

if you dont know the lessons, then NO, the techniques wont work

if you actually know what you are doing, you wont have a problem, you might not pull off a perfect 5 Swords, but it wont matter because the bad guy will still be in a coma.

arguing about weather or not the techniques themselves works sounds a lot like:


1) "i think i am smarter than ed parker, see his stuff doesnt work"
2) "i am a total bad ***, see how awesome i am?"


and it is, frankly, boring

stop bitching about wether or not it works and practice practice practice, and before you know it, BOOM< it works

not directed at anyone in particular

I consider this post to be directed at me,despite the disclaimer at the bottom,and I'm not bothered in the least by it.Even if it TRULY WASN'T aimed at me? So what.I'm answering anyway.

Techniques are of the second importance,and are the yang to the ying of whatever lessons they are to express or be functional models of.Repeat: Functional models of.They are the physical articulation of the lessons.The lessons are abstract,the techs are concrete.If the techs fail,then there is a failure to transmit the intended lesson...however solid and sensible the lesson is.The vehicle of TRANSMISSION--the way the techs are trained and executed,which is the vital vital vital difference and empirical irrefutable rebuttal to anything that anyone who claims that the IP as is is combatively functional--is fatally flawed.You're NOT KO'ing anyone with the 5 Swords...IF YOU CAN'T FIGHT WITH IT OR DON'T PRACTICE FIGHTING WITH IT.If you DO practice fighting with it against spontaneous attacks etc? You DID NOT do the IP.This is amazingly simple to prove.Here is the 5 swords in the IP:

http://youtu.be/hjlChmMnVJs

http://youtu.be/dHKQK2WPjnw

http://youtu.be/DwqDLEUe4aM <---This is 5 swords and shield and sword

^^^Do stuff like THAT,and you did the dominant IP expression or something of tremendous similarity.In 90%+ of actual fighting situations,you can't do things just like what is depicted...because what's depicted won't work as it's depicted.There will be no lesson learned except that it didn't work and you got your anal area pounded as a result.


If you CAN fight from it? YOU DIDN'T DO WHAT THE IP SHOWED EXACTLY AS SHOWN 90% OF THE TIME.The emphasis is on what the IP SHOWED.Simple.

If you read Doc's post? Doc specifically stated that Mr.Parker didn't show a "hard and fast correct and right way" of doing things.Instead? Doc says Mr.Parker articulated abstract ideals and concepts which were meant to be the starting point for each teacher and subsequent student to build their own interpretations of WHICH SUCCESSFULLY WORKED IN COMBAT,while using his techs concepts and precepts."How do YOU do it?" is what Mr.Parker would say.He wouldn't watch you do something your way that would still get your head handed to you.He'd guide and correct and help you do things YOUR way...but MORE EFFICACIOUSLY.Doc said so.And this right here proves it:

http://youtu.be/6SIQ7ONlE1I

At :22 seconds,Mr.Parker says:"This is a street situation,I DIDN'T STEP BACK I STEPPED FORWARD"--the EXACT OPPOSITE OF THE IP AND FORM RECOMMENDATION--"and pooop! (Mr. Parker slashes the hammer fist inches in front of uke's face and across uke's nose in a transverse motion) dammit I broke his nose as well..." Therefore,we were SUPPOSED to make our own interpretations based upon grasping his concepts precepts and techs,AND THEY ARE SUPPOSED TO WORK.FOR US.Mr.Parker already had his own Kenpo which worked quite well.


Look at Mr. Parker explaining Reverse Motion:

http://youtu.be/psmYLNxQQMw

The first thing that should strike you is that Mr.Parker ISN'T POSING WITH HIS PUNCHES.He throws them slow enough to be blocked by the young Black belt,but if the young Black Belt misses the block? HE GETS HIT. Mr.Parker IS TEACHING STUFF THAT WORKS;STUFF THAT YOU CAN FIGHT WITH. And for those of you who swear that you need the nonfunctional goofy stuff to start to learn the basic common sense functional stuff? Mr. Parker's actions should be the ultimate awakening.He doesn't start the kid "IDEALLY" blocking.Nope.The kid BETTER BLOCK.Mr.Parker even corrects him for blocking incorrectly with one arm,and in the correction? MR. PARKER MAKES THE KID ACTUALLY BLOCK AND MOVE AWAY MR.PARKER'S PUNCH.He didn't IDEALLY block.He BLOCKED.FUNCTIONALLY.IN THE REAL WORLD. Nowhere do you get the sense that..."ahhh,this mess will getcha gluteal region punted some'airs roundabout Saturn"...which is VERY MUCH the apparent with that IP mess.Note how the physical actions DIRECTLY REFLECT THE REALITY OF THE LESSON.Mr.Parker could punch harder and harder and faster and faster and as long as the young Black belt could keep up? Mr.Parker's blows would STILL get blocked...BY REVERSE MOTION. This is the ESSENCE of common sense and functionality.It is THE EXACT OPPOSITE of what you assert.

Lookit Mr.Parker explain "Contouring". And note...THE ACTION SUITS THE WORD.There ISN'T any "posing". Mr. Parker says at :54 in that he "uses the shoulder as a fulcrum" AND THEN HE ACTUALLY DOES IT.He didn't IDEALLY do it.He REALLY did it.He FUNCTIONALLY did it.Just like I do. At 1:18-24 note the specific application of detail,of leverage,by Mr. Parker.Note how he specifically enjoins us not to "pushh TO,but push THROUGH"...AND THEN HE DOES IT.In the REAL WORLD.No faking.


http://youtu.be/byMvSDOCYE8



Now,most damningly...LOOK AT MR. PARKER SHOW A VARIATION OF SHORT FORM 1. Immediately,right out the gate,he's departed from the "sacrosanct" material that he himself originated awhile ago because he's evolved beyond it (exactly like Doc said) and he IMMEDIATELY APPLIES THE TECHS AS THE EMPIRICAL EVIDENCE OF THE SOUNDNESS OF THE LESSONS.You CANNOT separate the efficacy of the techs from the efficacy of the lessons.Mr.Parker is not only functional and focused ONLY on functionality,he gives those specific nuances of detail,of trajectory,of impact that can ONLY come from a man who's done this tech this way for real for a lifetime.A lifetime STEEPED IN FUNCTIONALITY,NOT DYSFUNCTIONAL 'IDEAL'.Here's the video:

http://youtu.be/inBCadw32MY



Basically,the split second you say that "IT'S NOT SUPPOSED TO WORK"...you are also saying that it's NOT EPAK,it's NOT WHAT MR. PARKER WANTED,and it almost 100% certainly IS what Doc called "Motion Kenpo". And if you're cool with that? Fine.No worries.Whatever your position is on that matter? More power to you.But the facts are steadfast and unassailable and they don't in ANY way support your assertion and/or conclusion regarding the "irrelevance" of technique.

There isn't anything close to even the most oblique assertion or inference of:

1) "i think i am smarter than ed parker, see his stuff doesnt work"
2) "i am a total bad ***, see how awesome i am?"

(I'm quoting you,Twin Fist,in your post previous to mine)

Ed Parker himself,in word and deed,completely implodes your contentions and strips them of even the remotest quark or scintilla of accuracy or truth.Techs are irrevocably tied to concepts.Period. Mr. Parker was functional and so am I.Period. The IP is NOT functional.Championing the IP is championing dysfunction,which is the antithesis of EPAK.

Ed Parker didn't do Motion Kenpo.Neither do I. Ed Parker had his own expression of his art,and specifically wished us to develope our own.The entire concept of commercial Motion Kenpo--whatever else it entailed--had the development of each teacher's and student's specific Kenpo as a desired and accepted mandate.What wasn't expected was that somehow enough instructors would stray from the primary tenets that Mr.Parker expressed and most especially the entire art wasn't to devolve into the orgy of manure it's largely become.This hypothesis is drawn from what I understand from Doc's writings and post on this very thread.

Look...bottom line.If you can scrap with Kenpo? Great.Me too.If you love the IP? More power to you.However,if you assert that you can scrap with the IP as depicted? You're wrong.Furthermore--and Doc stressed this point in capital letters--IT DOESN'T WORK. Where we differ at are several points:

1) Doc says that Mr.Parker's hard principles of Kenpo were different than motion Kenpo's and therefore so is Doc's own personal Kenpo expression. I take this assertion to be true on faith.Doc says that Mr.Parker's hard principles are the bedrock for his ever expanding,ever evolving personal Kenpo expression.Evolving.Personal.Kenpo.Expression.

2) You and anyone who agrees with you are linked--no matter how you try to twist and turn and avoid it--to the irrefutable facts that there are principles and lessons behind each IP tech THAT THE TECH IS SUPPOSED TO PHYSICALLY EXPRESS. Guess what? The lessons may be terrific,BUT THE TECHS SUCK.The suckitude of the training of the techs is rooted in something that IS NOT the original idea of the IP,and therefore PREVENTS the transmission of the lessons that Mr.Parker wanted us to learn.

Look at this:

The technique manuals were originally a part of the "Big Red" business manual/guide that school owners were given, or should I say purchased. They a simple guide for them to work from to give them a base idea to begin the process of creating "ideals' for their students. The Web Of Knowledge was to give them the tactical assaults to consider, and the technique manuals the beginning of the answers to the questions. Instructors were to answer those questions to their satisfaction using Mr. Parker ideas and principles. The whole idea of creating "motion-based" Kenpo was because he couldn't be on the floor everywhere to teach everyone. That was impossible.


Mr. Parker's book on Kenpo Karate published in 1961 displayed his Kenpo when he first came to the mainland. Than Secrets of Chinese Kenpo, published two-years later showed something completely different. Mr. Parker was evolving from a teacher who never had a set curriculum, to writing down his own ideas of techniques on 3x5 cards, to creating technique manuals that went through refinements until the day he died.



People often wondered why Mr. Parker never put the "proper" way to do a technique on film to stop the bickering over the "right" way to do a set technique in his commercial system. Mr. Parker was evolving his material on multiple levels. While he massaged his commercial Kenpo Karate, he also continued to work on his personal kenpo, his intended "American Kenpo." The base philosophy of his commercial motion kenpo karate NEVER required it. It was designed to do the opposite. That was the job of all those black belts who were teaching. They were supposed to do the work, for their individual students. As long as their students performed to their teachers satisfaction, and the material worked for the students, than that is all the mattered.


You look at that video and see disfunction. I sat with Mr. Parker while we looked at that footage in the seventies, and he was so disgusted with what he saw of himself, he got up and stomped out of the room, and vowed never to put himself on film.

He knew people would look at the material and not be open to change. They would use him as the model for what they were doing instead of thinking, after he himself had moved on. He hated looking at old footage of himself, and probably made the same observations you have made. He was his own harshest critic.

All the footage seen later of Mr. Parker was taken by someone else. He never formally shot forms or techniques to teach how something should be done, only the philosophy and concepts of execution.

Unfortunately, the technique manuals were ultimately sold to students and then they became the standard of execution, rather than a basis to begin the process of thinking as he intended. It was easy. Just do what it says, even if it doesn't work. He and I had many arguments about his "kenpo-karate" and the plummeting standards. He always said the same thing, "It's their teachers fault, not mine."

He sold the "motion," but that is not what he personally did.

There is no way that I thought for a moment that I was smarter than Mr.Parker.That was never even the remotest thought in my mind.As I stated,my focus has been functionality as far back as I can remember.The inapplicability of what I was being shown was empirically apparent to me AS A CHILD of 8 when I first started training seriously. Doc and Mr.Parker had a much more in-depth conversation about this very thing probably before the first time I was even old enough to step onto the mat and spar for real. This is NOT a discussion of who's smarter.This is a simple discussion of what works and what doesn't,why that's the case,and if Mr.Parker deliberately taught us stuff that DOESN'T work.

Doc said:"The Web Of Knowledge was to give them the tactical assaults to consider, and the technique manuals the beginning of the answers to the questions. Instructors were to answer those questions to their satisfaction using Mr. Parker ideas and principles."

Therefore,Mr.Parker's commercial instructors created the IP.It sucked.It didn't work then.It didn't work now. Not working in the future neither.We were NOT supposed to make stuff that sucked and didn't work then or now or in the future either.Doc clearly states that various foolish mortals of the Motion Kenpo variety looked at The Red Book as the unalterable,unassailable Word From On High...and totally totally missed the point.They "Just do what it says, even if it doesn't work".<---Doc

Full stop.Take a look-see at that one more once.They "just do what it says,even if it doesn't work." IT'S CLEARLY SUPPOSED TO WORK.

Therefore,my emphasis on MAKING EVERYTHING WORK COMBATIVELY IS EXACTLY WHAT MR.PARKER WANTED US TO DO.And I'm like the gajillionth person to think say and do this.And there will be a gajillion more functional Coaches like me...if we can save Kenpo's soul from being irretrievably annihilated and raped into oblivion by the nonfunctional dweebs.

Doc said:"You look at that video and see disfunction. I sat with Mr. Parker while we looked at that footage in the seventies, and he was so disgusted with what he saw of himself, he got up and stomped out of the room, and vowed never to put himself on film.

He knew people would look at the material and not be open to change. They would use him as the model for what they were doing instead of thinking, after he himself had moved on. He hated looking at old footage of himself, and probably made the same observations you have made. He was his own harshest critic. "

^^^You know what this means? It means that--some 40 years after the fact--my observations are dead on target with what Mr.Parker said ABOUT HIMSELF some 40 years ago.Where your observations directly contradict or are in sharp variance with mine,we have Doc's personal experience of Mr.Parker being of a mind and position much closer to where I stand than where you are. It also means that--for the gazillionth time--Mr.Parker INSISTED THAT HIS STUFF WORK.If it doesn't work? Not only is that NOT EPAK it's NOT WHAT MR.PARKER WANTED. Again...you CANNOT learn ANYTHING of worth when you failed to defend yourself by faithfully using the IP...OTHER THAN THE IP DOESN'T WORK AND YOU NEED TO FIX IT. Guess what? MR. PARKER THOUGHT SO TOO.Not only did he NOT do what you're defending as some desirable and wonderful legacy of his which makes itself comprehensible only to those who relentlessly study the nonfunctional techs until they reach some form of Buddha-like revelation...Mr.Parker was VERY CLEAR as to WHOSE FAULT IT WAS that people fell for the craptasticness that is the CURRENT IP and DOMINANT IP for 40 years...

quoting Doc:


"Unfortunately, the technique manuals were ultimately sold to students and then they became the standard of execution, rather than a basis to begin the process of thinking as he intended. It was easy. Just do what it says, even if it doesn't work. He and I had many arguments about his "kenpo-karate" and the plummeting standards. He always said the same thing, "It's their teachers fault, not mine."

^^^^There ya go.It's supposed to work.You're supposed to think your way through the scenarios using Mr.Parkers techs concepts and precepts and develope stuff that WORKS IN SELF-DEFENSE,INTELLECTUALLY AND PHYSICALLY FOR YOU. What happened instead,among other things, was that Motion Kenpo dweebs refused to:" begin the process of thinking as he [Mr.Parker] intended. It was easy. Just do what it says, even if it doesn't work."<---Doc. So now we have a plethora of nonfunctional anus that we call the IP now.It CLEARLY wasn't what Mr.Parker envisioned. It was the Motion Kenpo instructors,Masters,etc. who did it.And when wrangled with about the very thing that I'm bemoaning right now...what did Mr.Parker say? "He always said the same thing, "It's their teachers fault, not mine."

Bang. If your teacher is showing you some IP techs that don't work? Your teacher IS NOT doing what Mr.Parker wanted.Your teacher got it wrong insofar as Mr.Parker would've been concerned,you got it wrong if you still use nonfunctional Motion Kenpo stuff and you're teaching your students wrong if you're teaching them that.And when I say "you" I mean the general,generic "you"--addressing anyone reading this post who's doing what Mr.Parker clearly didn't want us to do,according to Doc--not just YOU,Twin Fist.There ya are.

 

[MJS]

I remember one class that I was teaching. The tech that we were doing eludes me at the moment, but in any case, instead of the attacker just standing there, he was giving some movement, and when the shots to the face came, he moved accordingly. Well, that meant that he was no longer in the 'right position' for the defender to complete the tech, the way they'd practiced numerous times in the past.....doing the IP, assuming that that way was "the" way.

So they say to me, "I can't reach the face with this strike." to which I said, "Well, thats ok, just adjust accordingly."

Their reply was, "Yeah, but we're supposed to do this, not that."

(Insert 1,000 facepalms here) LOL! LOL! Despite my attempts at trying to reprogram, from the way that some of the other teachers were teaching, they were still under this impression that they had to do it that way.

This is why I said earlier, that I'm not trying to pull off Delayed Sword, Attacking Mace or any other IP move, but instead, adjusting accordingly. Sometimes, the person just isnt going to stand there like a zombie....they're gonna move, and maybe, just maybe, you wont be able to do the moves 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10, but instead, you may have to do 5,2,3,1,8,4,2, etc.

 

[Twin Fist]

do you think that the longer your post is, the more impressive it is gonna come across ? Cuz it doesnt.

Like your videos. 7 minutes of you jawin, and 15 seconds of you doing something, at half speed with a compliant foe....

Seriously, learn to cut to the chase.