In the end are all Martial Arts formless?

Tez3

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Actually the OP wasn't trying to impress at all, it is his thread so yep it was to do with the subject. Assuming that someone is 'ego stoking' would be something someone who does it themselves would think about. I didn't read it like that. What you read into something is often a reflection of yourself I find.
 

mograph

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Have we settled on a definition of "form?" Because "shape" and "kata" (for example) are two different meanings of the word.
 
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Juany118

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You don't have a monopoly on violence just because you got squirrel gripped. The violence that happens to you is not worse just because it happened to you.

I am not sure what point you are trying to prove here.


Nope. please note I a a history teacher who came to this calling by a bizarre series of circumstances.

I have no point behind this. I first was just saying that no MA is better. There is no superior art and all are, in essence, formless when crap hits the fan because YOUR skill and experience is what matters in the end.

But one person has to belittle this idea by saying "it's just a fight.". There is NO such thing. My only point then was to answer to them. To say in civilized society where you have common brawls, training fights in the dojo and fights for your life and then one person (not you) who will remain nameless chose to say, by their statement, they are all one in the same!?

If you look through the thread you will see who I was aiming at and, if you know the difference, you understand why I got my back up. There is no such thing as "just a fight".
 
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jks9199

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Gentles,
Perhaps we can return to the topic? If I understood the OP properly, he's asking why, after all the training, don't people in real fights actually look like they did all that training... It's a good question. Anybody got any thoughts?
 

Tames D

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Nope. please note I a a history teacher who came to this calling by a bizarre series of circumstances.

I have no point behind this. I first was just saying that no MA is better. There is no superior art and all are, in essence, formless when crap hits the fan because YOUR skill and experience is what matters in the end.

But one person has to belittle this idea by saying "it's just a fight.". There is NO such thing. My only point then was to answer to them. To say in civilized society where you have common brawls, training fights in the dojo and fights for your life and then one person (not you) who will remain nameless chose to say, by their statement, they are all one in the same!?

If you look through the thread you will see who I was aiming at and, if you know the difference, you understand why I got my back up. There is no such thing as "just a fight".
Get over yourself. I get it, you were a cop and got overwhelmed by violence. but It was just a fight.
 

drop bear

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Gentles,
Perhaps we can return to the topic? If I understood the OP properly, he's asking why, after all the training, don't people in real fights actually look like they did all that training... It's a good question. Anybody got any thoughts?

For the most part they do.

You see in the news. "Boxer stops robber" he is generally not laying down leg locks.

You see bjj vs rapist and someone is pretty much guaranteed a triangle choke.

I got yelled at constantly by my boss for making my fights look !Ike a mma match.
 

Flying Crane

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A lot of times the formal techniques of a system are somewhat exaggerated because that emphasizes the fundamental principles upon which the system is built. It's a training mechanism meant to help in grain the principles, which are more important. Once you have accomplished that, you can modify the actual technique, while still keeping the principles in tact. So in a fight, the technique isn't the formalized exaggeration. A punch can look different but if the principles underneath are driving that punch, you are still successfully using your martial art.
 
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Juany118

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Get over yourself. I get it, you were a cop and got overwhelmed by violence. but It was just a fight.

Well since I came out on top I wasn't overwhelmed. The point is the minute you say it's just a fight you lose, or get arrested. Every conflict is different, it permits for different levels of force to be used, whether you are a civilian or a cop. It's not just about physical mechanics it is about what mechanics are permitted in each type of scenario.

Example if the guy in my scenario the guy was not striking my groin repeatedly while trying to my gun I would not have been justified in the maneuver I was performing. A more common example would be a bar room brawl if a guy punches you in the gut and then you break a pool cue over his head or use another weapon, you go to jail, not the guy who punched you.
 
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Juany118

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Gentles,
Perhaps we can return to the topic? If I understood the OP properly, he's asking why, after all the training, don't people in real fights actually look like they did all that training... It's a good question. Anybody got any thoughts?

Actually I as more commenting about a rather popular mind set of late, namely that traditional martial arts, being tied to a specific "form" are innately inferior to more modern arts and fighting systems that are hybrid in design. The argument I often hear used is that the forms/kata are, for lack of a better term, a cage because of what I see as a misunderstanding. Some people seem to think that a Kata limits of prohibits adapting to a fights conditions because the fighter wants to follow set dance steps. I was trying to say this is false and that someone skilled in traditional arts can be just as adaptive.

This does, to an extent, lead into your point however. I think some people do well in training but poorly on the street because a lot don't train for a core fight dynamic...fight/flight response. When you get into a real fight you heart rate soars. Once it gets over ~ 115bpm, you will start to get tunnel vision and you will start to lose fine motor skills, unless you are prepared. Muscle memory has a steep hill to climb if you are having perception issues and the muscles simply don't move the same way.

You can actually see it in LE related shootings. On a range punching holes in paper an officer can have. 90% even 100% hit rate. However, because a lot of departments don't spend money to do a lot of stress shooting training, in real shooting incidents the hit rate drops to below 20%.
 

Ironbear24

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Bang to rights! It's not just the pain, it's the awful sickness feeling, the cold clamminess of the skin then the hot flush then the clamminess again just before you're sick and pass out. :eek:

It makes me want to throw up.
 
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