Forms and their true value in the martial arts

[Hanzou]

So this discussion popped up a few times, and I wanted to talk about it. What is the true value of form training in the martial arts? Certainly there are plenty of great MAs that don't use form training at all, and those arts are perfectly viable methods of combat. So what's really the point in learning pre-arranged patterns that don't teach you how to fight?

Here's an article that criticizes the value of forms in MA training;

The main reason people falsely believe forms have some sort of value is usually listed as "muscle memory". The idea that a move repeated enough times, becomes smoother, or more accessible during an altercation. Repeating a move over and over again in the air will do absolutely nothing for your reflexes or so called 'muscle memory'. In fact, repeating a move or series of moves over and over again in the same pattern and sequence will actually be counter productive to your bodies ability to respond quickly.

First, there is no TIMING, without a resisting opponent in front of you. Since there is no timing to be had, your reflexes, or response time against a resisting opponent, will not change, increase, or be helped in the least.


Second, there is no impact, as there is against a heavy bag. So there will be no benefit to your strength, body mechanics, or conditioning. In fact, your body mechanics may become altered in correctly due to the fact that you are not making impact against anything, but merely striking 'air'.


Thirdly, even when shadowboxing (another comparison morticians like to make when making zombies), you never want to repeat the same series of movements to many times in a row! This is a basic rule all boxing coaches are very familiar with. Go to the well to many times and your opponent becomes 'wise' to your arsenal. An example would be a boxer whom always hooked off the jab. After the second attempt he becomes predictable, and easy to set up for a counter attack or knockout. This is why it's important to make sure your athletes shadowbox fluidly. Watch them to insure that they are NOT repeating the same sequence of movements, in the same order, over and over again.

http://sfuk.tripod.com/articles_02/thorntonforms.html

 

[skribs]

I've often questioned the usefulness of forms, but for none of the reasons described above.

The main reason people falsely believe forms have some sort of value is usually listed as "muscle memory". The idea that a move repeated enough times, becomes smoother, or more accessible during an altercation. Repeating a move over and over again in the air will do absolutely nothing for your reflexes or so called 'muscle memory'. In fact, repeating a move or series of moves over and over again in the same pattern and sequence will actually be counter productive to your bodies ability to respond quickly.

This I find to be entirely false. The problem here is that traditional martial arts place a lot of emphasis on technique. I'm doing Taekwondo, which has very difficult kicks that we often practice just against the air. We also spar and practice on targets, but practicing the technique in the air gives us the muscle memory on how to do that technique correctly. Sparring is what helps us use that technique on reflex.

First, there is no TIMING, without a resisting opponent in front of you. Since there is no timing to be had, your reflexes, or response time against a resisting opponent, will not change, increase, or be helped in the least.

I've never seen forms claim to help you with your timing. What they do help you do is learn to move and strike at the same time, maintain balance, and enforce a variety of techniques.

Second, there is no impact, as there is against a heavy bag. So there will be no benefit to your strength, body mechanics, or conditioning. In fact, your body mechanics may become altered in correctly due to the fact that you are not making impact against anything, but merely striking 'air'.

While there isn't impact, you can still tell the people who put power into their techniques from those who don't. Proper stances during the form will help with balance, leg flexibility, and maybe a little with leg strength. Trust me on this: if you're doing a form properly (using proper technique, putting your power into it) you will be winded and sweating real fast. I dread when I have to do all of my forms in class instead of just the one or two we're working on, because by the time I get to the forms I'm working on I'm winded already.

Thirdly, even when shadowboxing (another comparison morticians like to make when making zombies), you never want to repeat the same series of movements to many times in a row! This is a basic rule all boxing coaches are very familiar with. Go to the well to many times and your opponent becomes 'wise' to your arsenal. An example would be a boxer whom always hooked off the jab. After the second attempt he becomes predictable, and easy to set up for a counter attack or knockout. This is why it's important to make sure your athletes shadowbox fluidly. Watch them to insure that they are NOT repeating the same sequence of movements, in the same order, over and over again.

At my school, only the simplest forms involve generic copies of each other, and that's because they are more to teach you how to do forms than anything else. The intermediate forms start to have deviation here and there, and the more advanced you go the more complex the forms become. Training multiple forms also gives you different sets of techniques. Part of the reason katas were created in Karate was to have a small set of forms that teach you all of the techniques of Karate, meaning all of the techniques had to be included in the forms (otherwise they wouldn't serve their purpose). While I agree sparring and freestyle practice are better at teaching creative thinking, I would not say that anything but the most basic forms are "repeating the same move over and over again."

---

Now, where I question the usefulness of forms, specifically in Tae Kwon Do, is how different forms are from sparring. The stance is different (deep stances in forms, narrow stance in sparring). The hand position is different (hands tucked at your side in forms, hands in a guard position - either similar to a boxer or held at your sides - in sparring). There is a much larger focus on hand techniques in forms, and sparring is mostly kicks (could be 100% or it could be 60%, depending on how much the fighter likes to use his/her hands). Forms largely teach blocks while sparring teaches avoidance and counter-attack. The footwork is different (forms are mainly steps, sparring is a lot of bouncing and skipping).

However, one thing I've realized is that our self defense drills support deeper stances and use more traditional techniques, and seem very effective (granted, I haven't tested this theory). I think it would be more effective than trying to trade blows with an opponent. These techniques are very aggressive and tend to go for target areas that are not allowed in sparring (neck, face, groin, knees, etc). Forms give us better practice at the stance and technique than 1-step sparring drills, but the 1-step drills help us with timing and accuracy. Sparring helps us work on our timing, even if everything is different about how we do it. I think it all works together to give us a nice variety of training that would combine together in an actual self defense situation.

Similarly is the question of Taekwondo Gymnastics; those flashy kicks and flips that have no business outside of a demonstration or an action movie. The 540 kicks and 720 kicks, or the flashier version of actually effective kicks. On the one hand, if you can do a good 720 kick, it probably means you can do a good tornado kick. On the other hand, working on the tornado kick itself is probably going to lead to more direct results on that kick. While it's possible to debate if these flashy moves are worthwhile, I say "they're fun to try" and ignore the question of their usefulness

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TL;DR version: I think forms have some benefits, even though sometimes I tend to think I'd rather be sparring or kicking a bag.

 

[Hanzou]

TL;DR version: I think forms have some benefits, even though sometimes I tend to think I'd rather be sparring or kicking a bag.

One of the points you bring up is very interesting; Why do the forms look so much different than the actual fighting (sparring) form? I've personally never seen someone fight similar to their kata form, almost everyone assumes that natural fighting posture.

 

[skribs]

I should also mention I think teaching *just* forms makes you a dancer, not a martial artist. Forms are good when used as part of a curriculum, which also includes hitting bags, sparring, and running various drills. If your entire focus is on forms, then you don't get much practical skill out of it. The exception of course is beginners, where they may still be learning the basic techniques.

 

[WaterGal]

Agreed. I think forms have value, in terms of tradition and cultivating gracefulness and so forth, but if that's 90% of what you're doing, or even (IMO) 50%, it's basically a dance or aerobics class.

 

[K-man]

So this discussion popped up a few times, and I wanted to talk about it. What is the true value of form training in the martial arts? Certainly there are plenty of great MAs that don't use form training at all, and those arts are perfectly viable methods of combat. So what's really the point in learning pre-arranged patterns that don't teach you how to fight?

So why do you ask the question when you already think you know the answer? If forms don't teach you how to fight they are pretty much a waste of time. The thing is, with an experienced teacher they do teach you how to fight. Different MAs teach using different methods to progress their fighting ability. Some use kata.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

What is the true value of form training in the martial arts?

To me, form is for teaching and learning only. It's not for training. The drills or combo drills are for training when partner is not available.

solo drill = partner drills without partner
solo form = solo drill 1 + solo drill 2 + ... (this is only used as a text book)

For your skill, you use:

- partner training to "develop" it.
- sparring/wrestling to "test" it.
- equipment training to "enhance" it.
- solo drills to "polish" it.

Either solo drill or solo form can only help you to "polish" your skill by sharping your skill and removing bad habit from your skill. It won't be able to help you to "develop" your skill.

 

[Kframe]

I do question the value of the forms in TKD. They seam so basic, even at the advanced level compared to karate. In karates katas, I see more then punch/block/kick. There are movements I can pick out as things I have practiced in my classes.(when I was at the Karate/mma gym) I know that some TKD instructors try to apply bunkai to their forms but I wonder how much has to be made up because of so much that is missing from the kata.

I hope some TKD guys come in and share there opinions regarding their forms. Based on my limited exposure to then(the kkw instructor I talked to, and watching my father do his forms) they are probably a waste of time for TKD. I wonder if time would be better spent on other things, in that particular art then doing watered down and incomplete karate forms.

Hanzou, are we also discussing the forms found in OLD traditional Japanese arts? They are a different beast and I hope Chris Parker chimes in about them.

 

[Hanzou]

So why do you ask the question when you already think you know the answer? If forms don't teach you how to fight they are pretty much a waste of time. The thing is, with an experienced teacher they do teach you how to fight. Different MAs teach using different methods to progress their fighting ability. Some use kata.

We know that martial arts systems can do just fine without Katas /forms within them. So why teach them if they're not really necessary?

Maybe they are useless for modern martial artists?

 

[Hanzou]

I do question the value of the forms in TKD. They seam so basic, even at the advanced level compared to karate. In karates katas, I see more then punch/block/kick. There are movements I can pick out as things I have practiced in my classes.(when I was at the Karate/mma gym) I know that some TKD instructors try to apply bunkai to their forms but I wonder how much has to be made up because of so much that is missing from the kata.

I hope some TKD guys come in and share there opinions regarding their forms. Based on my limited exposure to then(the kkw instructor I talked to, and watching my father do his forms) they are probably a waste of time for TKD. I wonder if time would be better spent on other things, in that particular art then doing watered down and incomplete karate forms.

Hanzou, are we also discussing the forms found in OLD traditional Japanese arts? They are a different beast and I hope Chris Parker chimes in about them.

Sure. I don't see why not.

 

[jks9199]

You've asked a big question -- and it's bigger than you realize because the term isn't consistent across styles or systems, nor is the method of using.

So... let's start by defining some terms. I'm gonna stick with English words 'cause it's simpler. And avoids the bigger issue of "does that word in another language mean what I think it does?"...

Form - a prearranged set of movements, done solo or with a partner. (Let's not split hairs about form as in the proper structure and alignment and organization of the body to carry out a particular technique...)

Drill - a set of techniques grouped for practice, either alone or with a partner

Routine - a set of techniques grouped for classification and organization, done either singly or with partner

So...

There are different sorts of forms, that teach different things. There are forms that are demonstrative in nature; they're about showing what you're capable of, almost like a dance routine or a gymnastics routine. There are forms that are kind of catalogs of the principles of a style, designed to embody and teach those tactics or strategies. (A lot of the Bujinkan kata are like this, as are koryu kata.) There are forms developed as pure physical exercises, and forms developed to memorialize and event, and forms that are... Maybe you're beginning to get the picture that there's a lot more than "dancing in jammies" sets of meaningless moves done solely to meet the checkmarks for the next belt at the worst of the Mcdojo.

Drills are nearly infinite; I can string any series of techniques together to practice them. I might simple throw a right punch/extended step. I might practice step/block/punch. I might work with a partner and punch or kick pads, or have them feed me a particular punch so I can practice defending against it...

Routines are catalogs; I can drill a routine by practicing it repeatedly. They're lists of the various techniques, grouped in some fashion to help students learn and remember them. For example, I teach a punching routine, and a kicking routine, etc. To be honest, I sometimes bounce back and forth between drill and routine, since the terms are kind of interchangeable when you practice them repeatedly. Routines are kind of like musical scales.

So...

Are forms, drills, and routines useful? Absolutely -- and absolutely not. Some approaches are built fully around forms, and if you don't practice the form, you'll miss key elements of the style almost as a rule. Other styles don't really use them. (Judo has forms... they're just rarely seen today, since they've been pulled out of competition, and Judo has gone heavily down the sport path.) Almost every style uses drills of some sort... After all, they facilitate repetition and practice. And some styles use routines or forms to capsulize the catalog of their techniques.

What forms (and stances, and even to a degree, individual techniques) are is often misunderstood and even more often misused. Too many people lock into rigid understandings of forms, and miss the messages -- or go the other way and reach too deep for "hidden secrets." Find the balance, and understand the purpose of the particular form in question, and then you'll have your answer.

 

[skribs]

We know that martial arts systems can do just fine without Katas /forms within them. So why teach them if they're not really necessary?

Maybe they are useless for modern martial artists?

Some people eat pancakes with a fork and a knife, others just use the fork as a knife and then as a fork. Does that make the knife useless? No, I don't think so. One thing I will tell you is that no matter what martial art you do, you do "forms" in one way, shape, or form. They might not have fancy Asian names. They might not have formal steps. But any time you do a one-two punch in boxing, it's a combination of techniques. Traditional martial arts just take that concept and give you more steps to do so with.

- partner training to "develop" it.
- sparring/wrestling to "test" it.
- equipment training to "enhance" it.
- solo drills to "polish" it.

Applying specifically to technique, yes. But I think solo drills/forms, partner drills, and sparring each have their place. Sparring gets you the reflexes, distance, and timing. Solo drills let you practice full force techniques that are A) not allowed in sparring and B) are very effective in a real fight (i.e. groin shots, eye gouges). Partner drills let you practice the targeting application of those groin shots and eye gouges, but without full force. Granted, solo drills can be done with equipment training, but doing them without equipment is easier in some situations.

Kframe, I haven't done Karate, so I'm not sure I can give an apt comparison, but I know that with Taekwondo the more advanced forms look less like a repeating pattern. The first few forms are basically a couple sets of movements repeated over and over again, but at the higher levels it looks more like prescribed shadow boxing than a basic drill. If that makes sense.

 

[DennisBreene]

Sure. I don't see why not.

with regards to the old vs new Tae Kwon Do forms; my limited perspective.
I was trained in the old forms of Tang Soo Do (Shotokan based if I am correct). I believe there is definite benefit as regards learning balance, movement and body mechanics applied to techniques. I am less skilled with the newer forms but my impression is that they lack something. It may simply be a stylistic bias on my part as I prefer lower stances and more precise body movement. I have observed the newer forms in a few schools since my return to martial arts and my gut response was that the techniques were sloppy. I really suspect that this was as much because forms were less emphasized than in my school. I would be very interested in the perspective of someone who has been actively trained through the Tae Kwon Do transformations as to their opinion of the differences. In either case, I agree with those who advocate that training via all the modalities available (form, one steps, free sparing etc.) is helpful in various aspects of practice.

 

[ballen0351]

One of the points you bring up is very interesting; Why do the forms look so much different than the actual fighting (sparring) form? I've personally never seen someone fight similar to their kata form, almost everyone assumes that natural fighting posture.

They look different to you because you dont know what your looking at. Your looking at the kata as a whole and not in its parts. Each and every little portion of a Kata is a different technique. So why dont real fights look like the kata? Because they are not supposed to. But take a small subsection of a Kata like deflect slide outside and counter to the ribs looks like well... Deflect, slide outside, and counter to the ribs.
Other Katas are not about fighting at all they are about strength training or breath control, Other times the important technique in the kata is upper body and the stance is really just to work the legs out. There is alot going on in a kata and you need to look at each part on its own break it down even more then a simple Bunkai. If you dont come at it with an open mind and have already decided it does not work then you wont ever get it.

 

[jks9199]

I forgot part...

Why don't people fight the way they train?

Yeah, don't get me started on that. Please, explain to me why you would devote hours to practicing drills, techniques, principles in forms... and then decide to do something completely different when you face off with someone, whether sparring or for real. You may not see the perfect execution of drill or form or paired kata, but if you don't have recognizably similar principles and approaches -- why not? Have you missed the lesson? Do you simply not trust the system's teachings? Or maybe you're simply daft?

 

[GaryR]

For a raw beginner, form can help them get down the fundamental body mechanics of their arts. Unfortunately, forms are used more for rank fodder testing fees these days.

Fighting comes from knowing how to apply the mechanics and methods etc, in a real-time encounter. Long forms can be counterproductive to getting methods "fight ready". Learning a few basic motions, tactics, and application variants, practiced in two-man sets at varying intensity will get you there faster than lining up and down a dojo repeating forms all month long.

For every move in the form, your teacher should be able to have countless versions of "hit me, and I'll show you have this operates". If not, then you are dancing.

G

 

[K-man]

For a raw beginner, form can help them get down the fundamental body mechanics of their arts. Unfortunately, forms are used more for rank fodder testing fees these days.

Fighting comes from knowing how to apply the mechanics and methods etc, in a real-time encounter. Long forms can be counterproductive to getting methods "fight ready". Learning a few basic motions, tactics, and application variants, practiced in two-man sets at varying intensity will get you there faster than lining up and down a dojo repeating forms all month long.

For every move in the form, your teacher should be able to have countless versions of "hit me, and I'll show you have this operates". If not, then you are dancing.

G

Hey Gary, when I saw you had posted .. well, I can't write here what I said under my breath, but when I read your post and got to the last sentence .. fantastic.
:highfive:

 

[K-man]

As an analogy. Let's say we enjoy music. We might enjoy the music played on a piano. Can we have music produced in other ways? Sure. Music could be played on any number of musical instruments. Can you have music without an instrument? Sure, some of us might be blessed with a beautiful voice so we can sing.

If you go to a friend's house and he has a piano, if you don't know how to play, can you play beautiful music? Obviously not, and if you had never seen a piano close up before, you wouldn't know that it enables you to play music.

So let's say that 'music' is a martial art. Let's say that the different instruments are different kata. Let's say that singing is music produced without an instrument as in a martial art that doesn't have kata in different MA styles.

Now, let's say that karate kata is the piano. If you haven't got a teacher who can show you how to play the piano you will be struggling to play recognisable music. If you have a good teacher you might be the next Brahms. So it is with kata. With a good teacher the kata is your martial art.

We can even go to the next step. I can learn to sing (BJJ) and play the piano (karate).

 

[skribs]

I think a more apt music analogy would be that if you want to learn how to play guitar, you can learn to read sheet music, you can learn to read guitar tabs, or you can just follow along with what someone else does. Maybe your training is more formal, maybe it's a quick-and-dirty "here's how you do X technique", and maybe it's just a quick watch-and-learn. In the end, you know how to play guitar with all 3 methods.

 

[RTKDCMB]

I think a more apt music analogy would be that if you want to learn how to play guitar, you can learn to read sheet music, you can learn to read guitar tabs, or you can just follow along with what someone else does. Maybe your training is more formal, maybe it's a quick-and-dirty "here's how you do X technique", and maybe it's just a quick watch-and-learn. In the end, you know how to play guitar with all 3 methods.

Just don't let anybody string you along.