In Defense of the McDojo

[Steve]

99% of everything is crap, and it all gets sold. Either the entire world is evil, or people like and want crap in most circumstances. It can't be evil to give people what they want and even demand.

Evil is your choice of words, not mine. It IS unscrupulous to sell an inferior product at an inflated price. Selling a cheap piece of plastic at the Dollar Store is fine. It's cheap. You know it's cheap and you're getting exactly what you expect.

Selling a cheap piece of plastic alleging that it's the super awesome fantastic at 10,000% profit is unscrupulous. This is what a mcdojo often does. It sells an inferior product at a premium price. Even the milder, kiddie daycare style McDojos where they make claims to teach kids things like honor, integrity, work ethic and who knows what else. These claims are patently untrue.

The program cannot teach these things because the program has no integrity. The kids are learning the opposite of integrity and honor. They're learning BAD values, not good ones.

The kids are learning that the bottom line is the most important consideration.

They're learning that, no matter how much effort they put into something, they will get rewarded in exactly the same way. The child who picks his nose every class will get his belt promotions at exactly the same time (and for the same price) as the kid who works hard and tries to do his best.

I certainly have no interest in running a McDojo. However, money is the only measure of success. One can only pay rent or a mortgage with money. One can only buy food with money. No money, no dojo; unless one intends to run it not as a business, but as a hobby or a labor of love. And there is nothing wrong with that; it's noble and admirable. But this being the the 'School Management' forum, it would seem that making money would be one of the topics of interest.

I disagree. Of course, a business should make enough money to be viable (And that is a number that only the business owner can know). Of course, one would need to make enough money to pay the bills both personal and professional.

Beyond this, however, there are an infinite number of ways to measure success. You're making it black and white, off or on. It's not that way.

Seems that a lot of the responses I'm getting are focused on how evil or wrong or ineffective McDojos are. I get that. It's really not my point.

Making a business case for a mcdojo invites this kind of response. I'm not sure you're getting my point, which is not that they're evil. I don't know where you get that from my post. I don't think used car salesmen are evil, either.

I think aluminum siding is evil, and don't much care for the people who sell it, but it's bloody everywhere, and people seem to like the stuff. It would seem that if one were in the siding business, one would want to be good at it; meaning that one would want to make money doing it.

I am beginning to believe that you and I have different definitions of evil. Siding can't be evil. It's a piece of metal. And the salesmen may or may not be unscrupulous, depending upon how they choose to go about their business. The McDojo version uses pressure sales techniques to sell his siding at an inflated price, making claims that are at best stretching the truth and at worst are complete fiction.

There is nothing wrong with a guy selling siding to people at a fair price and, frankly, it's odd that you would use the term 'evil' in this way. Odd to me, at least.

If one intends to make a profit and therefore 'be successful' at running a dojo, there are some lessons that can be learned from the evil McDojo. They have figured out some basic principles that can be applied to a non-McDojo without compromising principles or watering-down teaching.

I don't believe you're really talking about the McDojo. This thread should really be titled, "In Defense of Selling Out." That's what your argument is defending. It wouldn't be called selling out if it didn't generate some amount of profit in the short term.

But as the term states, it's selling out. Once you've sold out, you can't go back. Once you start down the path to running a McDojo, you're set. I've seen it and it's sad.

I will say this - if I ever managed to acquire the skillset necessary to effectively teach martial arts (which I doubt I will, seeing as I haven't enough years left on the planet to do so given my late start), I would definitely look to the McDojo and take some of their lessons in running a business. It seems to me that there is a lot of money being left on the table.

And, depending upon how you choose to do it, and what specific lessons you've learned, you will have sold out before you ever even got started. That's a shame. Not evil. Just a little sad.

It's not about whether you make money or not. Of course, you need to do that. It's about whether you want to be the unscrupulous siding salesman or not.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

I love the martial sciences to much to offer anything good in defense of McDojo's. Steve's points illustrate pretty much how I feel especially the point of selling something marketably inferior and claiming it is superior. Unfortunately these salesmen and salesladies are experts at what they do. They may in the end be poor martial practitioners and also produce en masse another generation of poor martial practitioners but they are good at sales. However, like Steve said they sell a product that is patently not what they claim it to be! They are like a modern snake oil salesman and they flourish. So for generations now we will have this to deal with. Bill in the end what you do and what I do will be compared to what they do. That is the crime in this particular situation!

 

[Bill Mattocks]

I love the martial sciences to much to offer anything good in defense of McDojo's. Steve's points illustrate pretty much how I feel especially the point of selling something marketably inferior and claiming it is superior. Unfortunately these salesmen and salesladies are experts at what they do. They may in the end be poor martial practitioners and also produce en masse another generation of poor martial practitioners but they are good at sales. However, like Steve said they sell a product that is patently not what they claim it to be! They are like a modern snake oil salesman and they flourish.

I contend that they sell a product that the public seems to want to buy. While some may be confused between authentic martial arts and canned mediocre training, it's clear that they sell belts more than the concept of training; lots of people seem to want to buy a belt. They're not people who would otherwise consider 'real' martial arts training, so they're a different market. The McDojos sell them what they want to buy.

So for generations now we will have this to deal with. Bill in the end what you do and what I do will be compared to what they do. That is the crime in this particular situation!

I do not worry about what others think of my training, nor do I worry about whether or not I'm being compared to the products of McDojo training. I train for my own benefit and not for what others may mistakenly think of it. Don't you?

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Absolutely in the end my training and those I work with are all that matters.

 

[JWLuiza]

You mentioned contracts in the "plus" side of the business model. I think contracts in a MA business model are unethical and in the long run hurt the bottom line, while showing a cash flow positive in the short term. I find allowing for multiple time period enrollments with increasing discounts to be a fair incentive though (e.g., allowing a 1, 3, 6, 12 month purchase).

 

[Bill Mattocks]

You mentioned contracts in the "plus" side of the business model. I think contracts in a MA business model are unethical and in the long run hurt the bottom line, while showing a cash flow positive in the short term. I find allowing for multiple time period enrollments with increasing discounts to be a fair incentive though (e.g., allowing a 1, 3, 6, 12 month purchase).

This may be your personal experience, and I therefore cannot deny it. But every industry I've ever been involved in searches for the Holy Grail of services income - recurring income that can be depended upon. Contracts are the stuff of predictable, recurring, income.

In support of your statement, I found this:

http://www.jonathanfields.com/blog/business-strategy-the-recurring-income-trap/

I largely agree with the sentiments of the author (and your thoughts too), but I recognize that trap or not, the recurring income model works and works well. Yes, a positively-motivated business that intentionally goes out to earn their business each month is preferable to the student - and can be a winner for the business as well - if the business has the acumen for that. And one downside that the author of this blog I linked to did not point out - it makes things very difficult for the employees. People look for stability and dependability for the most part. Salespeople live on commissions by choice, but rank-and-file don't want to have to live in fear of losing their jobs any given month because Johnny Wannabe Blackbelt didn't choose to pay his dues that month.

 

[JWLuiza]

Thank you for your response and I completely see the business drive for the dependable income, but I have to wonder if it possible to financially model the negative impact of FORCED contracts vs. opt-in contracts. Flux in cash flow can be devastating for any business, which is why I do see the value of having them as an option. However, as you have pointed out, and the article as well, the gym industry has worked on this model for years.

BTW, I really appreciate your take on Business vs. Sensei/Teacher perspectives. As a med student I don't learn ANY business skills and learning those skills is imperative in surviving in private practice.

 

[jks9199]

You mentioned contracts in the "plus" side of the business model. I think contracts in a MA business model are unethical and in the long run hurt the bottom line, while showing a cash flow positive in the short term. I find allowing for multiple time period enrollments with increasing discounts to be a fair incentive though (e.g., allowing a 1, 3, 6, 12 month purchase).

Contracts aren't bad, to me, in and of themselves. A contract ensures income over a stretch of time, which is a pretty important thing for a business, no? Your term enrollments do the same thing, and probably have a contract (for $x, you get 3 months/6 months/etc. with y classes per week, money deducted monthly or paid up front), right?

But when you're talking signing someone up on day -1 for a 3 to 5 year contract, with the addendum for the Black Belt Club and Super Ninja Tiger Demo Team... Yeah, that's a problem. Especially when it's a kid... and there's almost no escape clause for disinterest or dissatisfaction. After all, what do you tell the guy who just doesn't get it together in time at the end of his "black belt contract?" You've got a contract to train him to black belt; he either continues to train for free until he's ready (not a good business call...) or you damn well pass him to black belt at the end of the contract...

 

[dianhsuhe]

Unlike McDojo's though- Eating at McDonalds does not put you in danger. Uhh..Well at least not life threatening danger. LOL

I actually think that McDojo's take potential students away from legitimate schools. The general public often picks a dojo based on location, convenience and overall appearance. These mean NOTHING in the martial arts...

I came from a McDojo and I get nauseous and light-headed when I ponder what "might have been" had I stayed.

Jamey

 

[Bill Mattocks]

I actually think that McDojo's take potential students away from legitimate schools. The general public often picks a dojo based on location, convenience and overall appearance. These mean NOTHING in the martial arts...

If that is what matters to them, they probably won't do well with a 'real' dojo where they have to put forth real effort, will they?

In addition, McDojos, through their advertising, keep the idea out there that there are martial arts schools. Traditional dojos probably catch some free ride on that - a person sees an ad on TV, thinks about it, and then happens to notice the 'real' dojo down the street. In the end, it's probably a push.

I came from a McDojo and I get nauseous and light-headed when I ponder what "might have been" had I stayed.

I understand.

 

[dianhsuhe]

Bill I always enjoy your posts!

Defending McDojo's is a hearty task...I am not sure though that the folks who are looking for a clean and conveniently located dojo would wilt under the pressure of real training. Tough call-

I do like the blackjack analogy however.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Defending McDojo's is a hearty task.

I like to live a life of danger. Ticking off martial artists, hmmm.

 

[grydth]

I

In addition, McDojos, through their advertising, keep the idea out there that there are martial arts schools. Traditional dojos probably catch some free ride on that - a person sees an ad on TV, thinks about it, and then happens to notice the 'real' dojo down the street. In the end, it's probably a push.

McDojos are as positive an advertisement for the martial arts as pederast clergy are for religions.

People burned by a fraudulent teacher may well be less likely to try again at a reputable establishment.

One thing I cannot figure out... why would you decide of your own volition to take up their defense?

 

[grydth]

I like to live a life of danger. Ticking off martial artists, hmmm.

You want danger - try getting my wife angry at you!! opcorn:

 

[Bill Mattocks]

McDojos are as positive an advertisement for the martial arts as pederast clergy are for religions.

People burned by a fraudulent teacher may well be less likely to try again at a reputable establishment.

Again, I would argue that most people don't feel 'burned' because they got what they paid for - a belt. If they've been defrauded, they're blissfully unaware of it. In any case, advertising is aimed at newcomers, not the already enrolled.

One thing I cannot figure out... why would you decide of your own volition to take up their defense?

I just happened to be thinking of how their business model is actually a pretty good one, and how that model could be modified and extended to be used by 'real' dojos.

 

[grydth]

Again, I would argue that most people don't feel 'burned' because they got what they paid for - a belt. If they've been defrauded, they're blissfully unaware of it. In any case, advertising is aimed at newcomers, not the already enrolled.

I just happened to be thinking of how their business model is actually a pretty good one, and how that model could be modified and extended to be used by 'real' dojos.

So you are defending the business model, not the McDojo? That position I could have some agreement with.

I think you are assuming all customers at these places want the same thing, and that uniformly they are rather shallow..... but that is not the case. MT has a number of 'refugees' from McDojo's, all of whom are delighted to have found legitimate homes.

Look at the reasons you or my family is in the MA - pretty basic, right? So - - - why imagine none of the others have the same wants and needs? Further, don't they deserve what you and I are getting?

Misleading advertising aimed at newcomers is the most despicable; it targets a vulnerable class lacking knowledge and experience.

Knowledge of the fraud by the victim is irrelevant in debating whether the fraud exists; I'd be guilty of passing you a counterfeit $100 bill whether you knew it was fake or not.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

So you are defending the business model, not the McDojo? That position I could have some agreement with.

That's what I've been saying

and why I started this thread in the "School Management" forum.

I think you are assuming all customers at these places want the same thing, and that uniformly they are rather shallow..... but that is not the case. MT has a number of 'refugees' from McDojo's, all of whom are delighted to have found legitimate homes.

Fair enough. It's not the case that all people who sign up at McDojos are shallow and searching for belts instead of legitimate training. It's also not the case that none of them are shallow and searching for belts. Belt factories exist because people seem to want them. I think the mere fact that sellers on eBay appear to make money selling black belt certificates should go to prove that there's a market for such things.

Look at the reasons you or my family is in the MA - pretty basic, right? So - - - why imagine none of the others have the same wants and needs?

Why image that they all have the same wants and needs?

Look, it's a small and insular world in martial arts. We think of ourselves as if we were the 'average' but in fact we're not. Not many people do think like us. We're different and part of a rather small subset.

Further, don't they deserve what you and I are getting?

If they join a McDojo thinking that they are getting top-notch training, then yes, they deserve to get that. If they join to get a black belt in a specified period of time for a specified amount of money, then they deserve that.

Misleading advertising aimed at newcomers is the most despicable; it targets a vulnerable class lacking knowledge and experience.

Welcome to the world. Ever see the ad for 'eXtenze' capsules on late-night TV? How about 'HeadOn, apply directly to the forehead?' How about energy drinks? McDonalds, anyone? Reality TV? American Idol? Things go better with Coke? The world is full of crap, and 99% is of is worthless if not downright dangerous. People like crap. They demand crap. They line up for crap. They get angry if their crap is denied to them. The history of the world proves it.

Knowledge of the fraud by the victim is irrelevant in debating whether the fraud exists; I'd be guilty of passing you a counterfeit $100 bill whether you knew it was fake or not.

Sure, but again, we're back to arguing that all McDojos are uniformly worthless. I contend that they're not all worthless, even if few are of high quality. Most teach basic martial arts skills, and those skills have value even if they're not the best.

Would you argue that all non-McDojos are teaching high-quality MA? I'd say there's no way to know, but it would be reasonable to assume there are some crooks out there who are not running McDojos. And by the same token, not all McDojos are defrauding anyone. First, because they provide what the sell - a belt. Second, because many of them do teach some form of martial arts reasonably well; even if not great.

 

[grydth]

Belt factories may also exist because large segments of the public knows no better. Given the barrage of misleading advertising it is likely many believe that is the way things are supposed to be.

The fact that a market exists does not mean most would not want better... and most in fact deserve better.

If indeed your repeated point about 99% of things being crap is accurate, we likely have not much time left. If we are that full of BS as a society, we won't last long with nations like Russia and Chine around...... yet true MA values would be an antidote to the BS blizzard; McDojo's are merely a part of the problem.

I never have time for late night ads, though I can see I am missing somethings.... what I do not know. Methinks sleeping soundly may be a double blessing...... speaking of which, time to crash......

 

[AlanE]

I should have been clearer the first time out on this thread.... I am only speaking about the outright frauds, the worst of the worst.

I always focus on worst case scenarios, and that goes back to military service... anyone can plan for the easy eventuality. I want to know what can blow up.

But essentially it all comes down to this: do you deliver the goods or services you promise? if you do not, here as everywhere, it is consumer fraud..... and that is always harmful to individual, to the art/trade and to society in general.

I think most McDojos are delivering. It's a character issue if a person thinks they are more skilled than they are. But if the McDojo is the only accessible training in a person's world occupied by things to buy, temptations do self-destruct or be lazy, or TV to frighten or leave them feeling lacking, why not be active and at least practice kicking heavy bags and escaping holds, rules of safety being upheld? Worst case for lazy people is pulling a muscle when they try to escape a dangerous situation.

I'm not disagreeing and saying broken promises = quality, only that chuck steak is chuck steak. If I can't afford t-bone steak, I'll stay fed and fueled anyways, and use common-sense and physical effort. I can't be prepared for everything! We all go out in the world and practice what we can. Since mad people throwing bricks can do me harm, I won't discount their abilities by checking the dojos they attended. That's a little to elitist for me. Learn in a safe environment (or not) and move on. Stay fit, keep good relationships, and have some money left over as the years pass. Anybody interferes with that dream, McDojo them .

 

[Steve]

I like to live a life of danger. Ticking off martial artists, hmmm.

There's the crux of it though. Ticking off most martial artists is not dangerous at all.