Right now I train in garages, city parks and friends' basements. But, like many of you, I've been in the MA for a good while and know people. And, I'm content to train with high quality practitioners behind the scenes so to speak, even if I have to "go the extra mile" to make it happen. But for those who are starting out, it is difficult to make these kinds of contacts. So what's wrong with the "McDojo" concept? Oh, I know that the term is usually used to describe a tacky, over-commercialized chain or franchise operation with hard core sales tactics and expensive contracts...with the satirical reference to McDonald's. But just as there are very decent restaurant chains that offer people a product of known and consistent quality at a fair price, there should be room for that in the Martial Arts too. It's not for me...any more than I like to eat at McDonalds all the time. With restaurants and the Martial Arts I prefer to search out something a bit more special. But, for a lot of people, a decent franchise offers many advantages, not the least of which being widespread availability of a uniform product or service. What's wrong with that?
Could a "McDojo" be a Good Thing?
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Cirdan
Senior Master
We all know what happens if you eat at McDonalds every day. You become a sack of ****.
qwksilver61
Black Belt
I don't think It could be a bad thing,as long as the Instructor/s are not bilking dollars from their students as I have witness many times.I believe honesty plays a big part.For instance at some classes/seminars I've seen the lower level students almost completely neglected by senior students,after raking out big bucks to attend.Quality instruction...you have to look for....to the untrained.... buyer beware!
This is why I always say that people need to do their homework. The usual reply to that, is how does a newbie to the arts, know what to look for? Well, ok...what about when you're looking for a condo, a house or a car? Do we just act on impulse and buy the first thing we see? God I hope not. 
Instead we may consult someone who knows about cars or has the car we're looking to buy, consumer reports, and for a place to live, a real estate agent.
QS61 made a good point about the cash, but many McDojos are belt factories, and offer special programs to the quick black belt, so in a sense, they are looking to make a quick buck and could care less about the quality, but instead the quantity.
Like it was said...let the buyer beware.
Instead we may consult someone who knows about cars or has the car we're looking to buy, consumer reports, and for a place to live, a real estate agent. QS61 made a good point about the cash, but many McDojos are belt factories, and offer special programs to the quick black belt, so in a sense, they are looking to make a quick buck and could care less about the quality, but instead the quantity.
Like it was said...let the buyer beware.
Brandon Fisher
Master Black Belt
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Not all commercial dojo's are bad, though there are a lot that milk people for money. As already stated if you are getting top grade instruction thats worth more than someone who only has been teaching a a few years. But extremely high testing fees where no one ever fails is a clue to run. Instructors and students wearing multi colored gis with patches covering them might be a clue, not always but most times.
Just note that commercial dojo's are very expensive to operate especially in more urban areas so rates have to be higher to survive, that does not mean they are a mc dojo.
Just note that commercial dojo's are very expensive to operate especially in more urban areas so rates have to be higher to survive, that does not mean they are a mc dojo.
JTKenpo
Purple Belt
You can get burned by an instructor teaching from a garage just as easily as you can get burned from a slick used car salesman type. Been there done that lost all my gear. No names, I respect the man he just has no business sense and it was twenty years ago. Anyway, McDojo isn't always a bad thing I agree, most people that try martial arts don't stick with it and if you do stick with it you are bound to learn something even if you are eating at McDonalds everyday. Some will hunger for more and move on to something or someone else and some will be happy getting the #2 every day for there training. The point being that the average person doesn't make it to Black Belt. So if someone wants to say yeah I know xyz art I studied it when I was 4 and made it all the way up to my pink belt with sparkles, hey more power to them. Those who want to seek out the "seniors" and learn from them in the third floor mill districts will and those who don't won't.
Laurentkd
Master Black Belt
We say that those types of schools are great "starter programs". We have lots of kids and adults who start at one of these mcdojos because it looks big and inviting and the name is recognizable. But after a few months they start to feel they aren't getting what the really want and wonder what else is out there. Then they understand the basics of what they are looking for, what they want and what they don't want, and they are able to find us (or another quality school). So, in some cases, a mcdojo actually works to funnel quality students to a quality school.
Thanks to Martial Talk I've learned that I should studiously avoid places that advertise teaching more than one art, i.e. a school that teaches Hapikido and Aikido and Wing Chun all at the same school.
Or one that teaches BJJ, Karate (nothing specific...just Karate), TKD all at the same place.
I'd be concerned about whether or not what I'm learning is the art that I specified and not just because the instructor is teaching me a bit of this and a bit of that and calling it thus.
I mean when they say Karate ... what KIND of karate are they teaching? Kenpo, Kempo, Shotokan, Miyagi do? Hell I've seen TKD advertised as Karate.
I've seen how well a student learns when the instructor is teaching them specifically the art that they paid them to learn. While the instructor may have crossed train (and we've all agreed that is NOT a bad thing) he's at least knows the difference between the two and will either not show a bit of this from this art or make it clear that this is not the art they're training in, they're being shown to help grasp a difference in technique.
Either way, the next school I go to I plan on bringing a microscope and some KY and bring the MT Advisors along as consultants. I want to get what I paid for without worry of being bent over the fence.
Without the KY too.
Or one that teaches BJJ, Karate (nothing specific...just Karate), TKD all at the same place.
I'd be concerned about whether or not what I'm learning is the art that I specified and not just because the instructor is teaching me a bit of this and a bit of that and calling it thus.
I mean when they say Karate ... what KIND of karate are they teaching? Kenpo, Kempo, Shotokan, Miyagi do? Hell I've seen TKD advertised as Karate.
I've seen how well a student learns when the instructor is teaching them specifically the art that they paid them to learn. While the instructor may have crossed train (and we've all agreed that is NOT a bad thing) he's at least knows the difference between the two and will either not show a bit of this from this art or make it clear that this is not the art they're training in, they're being shown to help grasp a difference in technique.
Either way, the next school I go to I plan on bringing a microscope and some KY and bring the MT Advisors along as consultants. I want to get what I paid for without worry of being bent over the fence.
Without the KY too.
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grydth
Senior Master
In my experience, schools offering more than one art can be good.... if they have teachers on staff who qualify as experts in each art taught. It is not unusual for a dojo to bring in a teacher in another art once or twice a week - that teacher's art may not draw enough to support its own dojo; the established dojo can fill it's mat space and draw more people in. It can be a "win" for everyone.
As to "McDojo", things are rarely black and white. Maybe some do teach some useful things, techniques that would be better than nothing.... especially in remote places where quality instruction isn't available. But others can send students out with no philosophy and nothing that will work for them in a street situation. Those whose black belts were purchased for self esteem will lose that, and possibly much more, in a confrontation they are ill prepared for.
As to "McDojo", things are rarely black and white. Maybe some do teach some useful things, techniques that would be better than nothing.... especially in remote places where quality instruction isn't available. But others can send students out with no philosophy and nothing that will work for them in a street situation. Those whose black belts were purchased for self esteem will lose that, and possibly much more, in a confrontation they are ill prepared for.
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My opinion of the McDojo has changed over the past couple years and I'll tell you why...
I think... With the bad press Martial Arts get, say, from people like Gavin DeBecker (who wrote in his book "The gift of Fear" that a Martial Artist is the type of person to be Violent and should be avoided by women) and the likes of the people who tried to ban MMA as "human cock-fighting" and their ilk... The McDojo which churns out belts, teaches primarily kids, and hosts "everybody gets a trophy" tournaments and the like... are GREAT publicity for the arts, because they give it a campy "martial arts are for kids, 13 year olds can get black belts so a black belt doesnt mean you are a brutal killer, its so sporty! Look they do it like softball, Its an after school activity" mindset helps the public image to keep the arts free and legal, and creates an (IMHO) "acceptable" image for martial artists in the general public so they aren't feared and loathed.
*shrug*
I think... With the bad press Martial Arts get, say, from people like Gavin DeBecker (who wrote in his book "The gift of Fear" that a Martial Artist is the type of person to be Violent and should be avoided by women) and the likes of the people who tried to ban MMA as "human cock-fighting" and their ilk... The McDojo which churns out belts, teaches primarily kids, and hosts "everybody gets a trophy" tournaments and the like... are GREAT publicity for the arts, because they give it a campy "martial arts are for kids, 13 year olds can get black belts so a black belt doesnt mean you are a brutal killer, its so sporty! Look they do it like softball, Its an after school activity" mindset helps the public image to keep the arts free and legal, and creates an (IMHO) "acceptable" image for martial artists in the general public so they aren't feared and loathed.
*shrug*
grydth
Senior Master
You may be right, but what happens to those black belt in name only people when they have to face down an actual "brutal killer"?
If we need to present such a McDojo image in order to remain "free and legal", then we are already dead and just don't know it. A far better tactic would be to publicize how MA helps troubled kids turn their lives around, how many people get health benefits from it, how many people MA have saved, how many 'mainstream' figures practice MA - and its a shame we'd even have to think of doing that in "The Land of the Free"
If we need to present such a McDojo image in order to remain "free and legal", then we are already dead and just don't know it. A far better tactic would be to publicize how MA helps troubled kids turn their lives around, how many people get health benefits from it, how many people MA have saved, how many 'mainstream' figures practice MA - and its a shame we'd even have to think of doing that in "The Land of the Free"
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You mean, of course, the land of the "Free to hire a lawyer and sue you for assault after you kick my *** because I tried to rob you with a baseball bat, because I didnt know you were a deadly Black Belt Killer when I attacked you.."
Oh and as to:
IMO, They chose their art... and would probably STILL be better off than someone with NO training... even if it is only Point Sparring from a belt factory. And Remember, there are people who PREFER that type of training.
ArmorOfGod
Senior Master
That is a very interesting opinion.
Strangely, I think there is a huge amount of truth in it.
AoG
ArmorOfGod
Senior Master
I think the original poster should change his arguement a little overall.
A school that charges a lot of money should not be chastised as long as it offers a quality program. The problem is the schools that cross the line and charge $200 for $30 gear and offer "Kung Fu Panda" programs and decorate their dojo's in Star Wars stuff while the head teacher wears Jedi robes and teaches light saber moves (yes, that is going on at some of the ATA schools).
As long as the program is high quality, then that is fine, but the problem always seems to be the lowering of what is being taught in the school and the high number of "baby black belts."
AoG
A school that charges a lot of money should not be chastised as long as it offers a quality program. The problem is the schools that cross the line and charge $200 for $30 gear and offer "Kung Fu Panda" programs and decorate their dojo's in Star Wars stuff while the head teacher wears Jedi robes and teaches light saber moves (yes, that is going on at some of the ATA schools).
As long as the program is high quality, then that is fine, but the problem always seems to be the lowering of what is being taught in the school and the high number of "baby black belts."
AoG
I have a slight disagreement with some of this.
Just because a place teaches multiple styles doesn't automatically mean there's a problem. For example, there's no problem with the Budokan in Japan, right? I know of a couple of places that offer several styles, with DIFFERENT teachers for each style. It's either cheaper or more practical for them to do it together, where the basic business costs are shared, than trying to do it alone. The only headache I've noted from set ups like that (assuming legit instructors in the first place, of course) is that instructors leave sometimes, changing the nature of the place. But that happens in schools that teach a single style, too.
Nolerama
Master Black Belt
McDojos are awesome. They provide entertainment!
Foot Fist Way
Personally, I think they might be good for a workout, but learning? Not as much as a more dedicated gym. Just like in schools, student-teacher ratio is important, and I've seen some that completely lack any regard to that. In the course of one hour, how is one instructor able to properly attend to each and every individual if there's 20+ people in the class (especially if they're youngsters)? I see that as taking away focus from the MA, and more into the business aspect.
Or schools that make you stretch out for an hour and a half prior to the workout. Stretching is highly important, but I've seem some places that take it to a ridiculous level.
Has anyone at a more focused school encountered McDojo graduates that seemed to have been taught completely wrong?
Foot Fist Way
Personally, I think they might be good for a workout, but learning? Not as much as a more dedicated gym. Just like in schools, student-teacher ratio is important, and I've seen some that completely lack any regard to that. In the course of one hour, how is one instructor able to properly attend to each and every individual if there's 20+ people in the class (especially if they're youngsters)? I see that as taking away focus from the MA, and more into the business aspect.
Or schools that make you stretch out for an hour and a half prior to the workout. Stretching is highly important, but I've seem some places that take it to a ridiculous level.
Has anyone at a more focused school encountered McDojo graduates that seemed to have been taught completely wrong?
grydth
Senior Master
If you're going to make it a practice to leave people who try to rob and murder you with weapons still alive at the scene, then I don't want to hear any whining about lawyers.:soapbox:
No, they would be better of without phony 'training'....because without it they'd be smart enough to listen to their fear and do as Field Marshal Monty Python advised, " RUN AWAY RUN AWAY RUN AWAY"
Yes I can see that and understand after seeing a friend's school go under because it had it's main financier leave and it basically collapsed under it's own weight. So yes there is that; one bb/instructor from one art partnering with another bb/instructor from another art and both of them doing on/off nights at the school to help keep it going for the both of them... even three instructors could do this.
Which is why I said when I do go to one of these (because at the moment where I live the choices are few and far between) I plan on bringing a proverbial microscope and the ole' KY and check them out... with the folks on MT for assistance when I get the names of THEIR instuctors and post the question: Has anyone ever heard of "this guy?"
I know what you mean...
But, remember, as knowledgeable and well versed as a lot of the folks here are, just because nobody here has heard of a style, or a teacher doesn't mean that the guy is bogus. For example, I could drop my teacher's name and a handful of people might recognize it. An even smaller handful might recognize mine. But I've got a solid reputation within my style, as both a fighter and teacher. There's not even a lot of folks who really know much about my style...
