I'll Just Run!!!

[theletch1]

Well running is an excuse used by a lot of people to cover what they don't train for, I hear it the most from MMA guys & arm chair martial artists. Thing is sure you can run and many times running is what "they" want to happen. When I was 15 me and some friends where at a concert and three guys started walking toward us in a "threatening manner" so we changed direction found four more guys and we went a third direction and got pinned in an alley with 7 guys on one end and 4 on the other end.

I gave them my shoes & my wallet, looking back on it if we were smart we'd have moved toward the first three if it became a fight there where wittnesses may be the police would have been called in. Instead we let them herd us into an alley away from wittnesses and help.



Actually my psychology text book says nothing of freezing, it list fight or flight but also submission & posturing. I guess freezing could be considered an involuntary form of submission & I know that there is a debate by some psychologist & sociologists to have freeze added making it five.

Also many times training is what causes the freeze effect according to many RBSD instructors. I had seen a video where a black belt in Shotokan I think it was, was told not to defend himself until he was physically touched. The uke dressed as a street punk got in the Karateka's face and began yelling obsentities and threats and the karateka froze when punched in the face.

So I have a question(s);
Have they updated the interactions to interspecies conflict or is this a personally/institutionally/organizationally accepted principle?
Why assume its lack of training & not lack of experience?

What I mean is this I had plenty of training, I had a wealth of training & when it came time to pull a trigger in Iraq I hesitated my first time. My training prepared me but I lacked experiences that meant my training was going to be effective. So my little voice of doubt became a block that caused me to hesitate, I snapped out of it real quick after the first shot.



Sure ask the question, ever been literally shot/stabbed in the back? How fast are you compared from some skinny street kid who makes it a career from running from the police? By the way, thats whats chasing down the alley to his friends?

I've just enrolled in a mental health degree curriculum myself so I feel for you on reading the psychology books. The freeze should, absolutely, be added as one of the list and make it five.

You said it well in the first line of your post... it covers something they haven't trained for. They haven't really trained for the psychology of the act. There have been training session after training session to deal with the physical aspect of the altercation but the psychological aspect of balancing your training to harm/maim/kill another human being with the social training that you've had drilled into you for the majority of your life (don't hit, don't be mean etc) is one that is at best difficult to train. Marine Corps recruit training was designed to create the emotional stress of being in a combat situation as closely as possible without actually being shot at. There's still that little bit of difference between the training and the real thing that cause many folks to at least pause for a split second when they find themselves under fire for the first time.

Good post, BTW, the psychological side of combat is what I'm specializing in in school so that I can help counsel my fellow vets who are suffering PTSD symptoms.

 

[MJS]

WOW, lots of great replies! Sorry I didn't get back here sooner, but now that I have a bit more time, let me explain my point of view in more depth.

As I said, I'm all for trying to verbally talk my way out of something. Done it many times. I'm also all for running away or trying to leave the area of the bad situation. However, as I've pointed out, there're times when that isn't an option. Ex: I'm opening my car door, and someone comes up from behind and shoves a blade against my back. In that case, no, I'm not able to run, as easily as if I saw the guy coming at me from 20ft away. And frankly, not to open that can of worms again, but personally, I am not too keen on handing over my personal belongings to some scum bag because he demands them.

I believe it was Draven who said that its usually a certain group who makes those comments, and yes, I agree. IMO, those comments are made for a few reasons. A) Because that is all they know, B) because their teachers can't provide them with any other answer, C) because they dont want to look outside their box, D) because they jump on the 'well, thats physically impossible to do' bandwagon and actually believe that it is impossible, when in reality it isn't.

This is why I said in my OP, that while its a good option, it may not be the best option. Certain groups say run, but I get the impression that they're just going to curl up into a ball and crumble, if actually faced with the situations I mentioned, and can't run.

As far as the laws requiring me to run...well, IMO, those are the best case scenarios, meaning, that yes, in the perfect world, this is what we do, this is what everyone tells us to do. I'm not going to take the chance that by complying or trying to escape no matter what the situation, that its not going to bite me in the rear later on. Way too many cases where people complied and got hurt anyways. IMO, you wait too long, you wait wrong. If that gets me in hot water, so be it. My safety is #1 on my mind. Never said I was going to stand there and turn this into an epic UFC battle. If I can defend myself, while at the same time, taking a shot at the badguy, and then leaving, then so be it. Again, awareness, environment, who you're with...all just a few of the things that we need to take into consideration.

This thread was pretty much to talk about the listed comments. It just amazes me, that there are so many people out there, who say those things, because they have no other options. IMO, that tells me, those people are not truely prepared for a SD situation.

 

[MJS]

Fight, flight or freeze....this is why I'm a fan of scenario training. Yes, I think its safe to say that we all know that we'll never replicate a RL situation 100%, but as far as I'm concerned, its better than nothing. Train for these types of situations, and hopefully the freeze will be eliminated.

 

[morph4me]

I remember training a drill where one partner took the other by the lapels and slammed him up against the wall. We had people with varying degrees of experience, and running wasn't an option.

There wqasn't really an oportunity to think about what to do, and freezing happened quite a bit, with quite a few people who had years of experience.

The other reaction was to bounce back and go after the attacker. I personally had to remind myself that we were trainging, because for a second, I went into survival mode. After doing it a couple of times, freezing became less and less of an issue.

 

[Bruno@MT]

I'll just run.
So, this brings up the question....why do people put so much faith into running? Seems to me that running is the typical answer that everyone says, but always fails to mention plan b. It also tells me that some people that advocate this so much, may not have the skills to deal with the situation they're facing, so thats the best they can do....I'll just run.

Because it is true. I know for dead certain that I do not yet have the skills to defend myself properly against an armed attacker. Especially if he is not just asking for my wallet but wanting to attack me.

I am not ashamed to admit this.
Let me prove this by saying it again: I do not have the skill and the experience to deal with that. If I try, the odds are beyond bad.

So I'll run. Because that is my best bet. And if that fails or the attacker catches up with me, I am still not worse off than when I decided to run in the first place.

And if I can't run because my kids are with me, I'll have to see it as I go along. I'll tell THEM to run while I can hopefully stay upright long enough to grant them an escape. And I'll probably snuff it sooner or later, because I don't yet have the ability to fight with confidence. If I would have to do this now, I'd try to throw sand in his face, throw bricks, a garbage can, or do anything to delay to create an opening to run, or put off the inevitable.
This is also why I put so much emphasis on awareness and avoidance: they are the only things I can rely on yet, because my fighting skills are not good enough to face an armed or determined attacker.

As to whether I would freeze or not: that is possible. I have been jumped by friends 'for fun'. And the only reason they managed to laugh about it afterwards was that they jumped away instantly. But these are reflexes. If someone comes at you while you are aware of it, the reaction may be different. I only have a couple of years of MA under my belt, and I know where I am, ability wise. I know I can outfight the average joe, and if he does not expect me to fight back, it will go bad for him.
On the other hand, maybe he is an experienced fighter or worse: an epxerienced knife fighter. In that case I know that I am not going to cut it, so running -if possible- is my best bet because I don't lose anything by trying.

 

[still learning]

Hello, Avoidance is the best rules to follow...escaping anyway you can...FIRST chance you got..!

If one cannot flee? ....verbal's...talk you way out!

Lastly if one has NO choice but to defend one self? ...go Offensive! ...do what it takes to end any confrontations....

Best to learn of laws and your rights when getting into confrontations (Physcial)....before hand..!

One must face the results of any fights that takes place!

Running away? ...saves lots, injuries from happening,time,cost of cures-jail or morgue...

Run if you can...?

Aloha, ....on an island..one can only run so far...before we meet again..

 

[Draven]

Like I said I see freeze as more an "involentary submission" to a situation. There are certain pros and cons to running away. Its all depends on the intent of your attacker if he is there to mug you he less likely to attack you for running away, If he us there to prove his manhood he may chase you down seeing your running away as a sign of fear.

Thats why I always tell my students that you need to know your enemy. If you are dealing with a criminal assault (violence or threat of violence to commit a crime) that person is "going to work" and often times won't risk greater threat of punishment over pride. If your dealing with the average tough guy, you can easily defuse the situation by first posturing to assert yourself as a hard target then by giving them a "safe out." For example a lot of "tough guys" like to use their girl friends as a pretext for a fight & most often it can be defused by first making that counter threat and then by a playing dumb and offering a peace offering. Basicly the words "You might be big but you ain't that big and I don't care for people threatening me. She never told me she had a man & if I'm stepping on your toes with her, I'm sorry but we can settle this by letting it die here and drink a beer togather or we can step outside & beat on each other for no reason."

Ussually that ends it but I've had a few guys who think they are in a gang because they have friends with them, in those cases make sure the first guy goes down in the first few hits & you gain a decisive victory ASAP nothing like watching someone seriously hurt you buddy to take the wind out your sails. I'm with MJS the idea of retreating often times makes issues worse and I think those legal cases are point blank stupid. Let me give you a example; a "friend of mine" was involved in an altercation where his drugged up lil brother attacked him in his home with a knife. He hit his brother in the head with a hammer & is currently pending a charge of malicious wounding. Problem is the LEO investigating believes that he should retreat from his lil brother while the state says there is a castle law that allows someone to defend their home, family, property or self.

 

[K831]

I was always taught to do both;

First; fight hard and put him down, second; flee before the fuzz shows up.

Just kidding.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8fwz7rxlOk8

I think for one, some people have a greater proclivity towards the "fight" reaction than towards the "flight" reaction and vise-versa.

Many people have a hugely violence inhibited psyche. Seriously, even most people who train don't seem to actually have it in them to be aggressive and violent when it comes right down to it, so naturally they will first think of running.

Then you have the people who are very capable of fighting (not just physically but capable emotionally and psychologically) but are smart enough to opt out if possible.

For me, I don't consider it much of an option. If I am out in public it is because I am with my wife and kids. I am faster than them, so in that situation, it is verbal de-escalation or fight.

This is where it gets tough, an attempt at verbally defusing the situation is commendable, but can also give bad guy a chance to strike first. I am not ok with that. My reaction is typically to use verbal tactics to buy me that millisecond moment for the sneaky shot and put him down, but that is just me.

I try and work with my wife on situational awareness as well, and will sometimes test her to see if she noticed weird looking out of place guy at the park watching the kids play or gas station lurker near the ATM etc. Having the whole family aware (not paranoid) helps too.

It's the same way that many people who hold concealed weapons permits say "I'll just shoot my way out!" They ignore the possibility that they won't be able to draw fast enough, or won't have a safe backdrop to shoot into (do you really want to wing a few rounds in the direction of the elementary school playground?), or aren't confronted with a lethal force situation...

Agreed. I hear that too often. Of course, I know just as many people in the martial arts who don’t look to firearms as part of their martial arts training, somehow thinking their Kung Fu skills will allow them to handle all situations with an empty hand. I think that is just as silly, if not more so.

 

[jks9199]

There are at least two types of "freeze." One type is the instinctive "If I don't move, the sabretooth tiger wont see me and won't eat me." There's no real thought to this type; it happens in the spinal cord.

The other type is more of a vapor lock, and is more likely to effect a trained individual. It's a blend of different things (part of why I said at least two types); a bit of being locked in having too many options to choose from, and a bit of disbelief/denial at actually being involved in a situation, and some over-analysis of the events (and probably more). Let me use some examples to maybe make what I'm saying a little clearer. The first example is the classic OODA loop freeze; too many choices take too much time to decide among them. The second element is something I see too often in cops; it's sometimes called presumed compliance. They get used to people doing what they're told -- and when someone bucks, it sometimes surprises them, and it takes a few beats (sometimes more...) to get on track. The third part is something I see a lot in sparring. A person is so busy trying to decide if the opponent is attacking that they don't move...

Like I said -- there very possibly are other types of freezes.

 

[Jenny_in_Chico]

I think that the first reaction of most untrained women is to freeze/submit. We are biologically adapted and culturally conditioned to react this way. Which is why many women make easy targets for bad guys with sexual violence on their minds, but we tend to get into fewer bar fights.

When we get some training under our belts, then its a whole different ball of wax. We then become subject to the the entire line of reactions described here by the men. When I'm sparring my two biggest mistakes are 1) over-analysis and 2) over-aggression. For example, I'll circle and read my opponent and try to see what he's about to do, and I slow my reaction time. Then he clocks me, and I react very aggressively (which is my natural reaction, unlike most women) and someone gets hurt.

This also happens when we are practicing "surprise" attacks...I amp up and react in a big way and I don't exercise good control, and again the guy gets hurt. This is the part of my training that has proven the most difficult for me, controlling my aggression. It is fear-based and very deep down, and developing control means devloping mastery over my instinct to perform a technique full force and for keeps. So I suspect that if I get attacked I will forget to run and instead fight like hell, which may or may not work. I'm a very slow runner, so I'd better be a damn good fighter.

 

[Flying Crane]

Monty Python said it best

King Arthur: Run away!

Sir Robin: Would it help to confuse it if we run away more?

The Black Knight: Oh, oh, I see! Running away, eh? You yellow bastards! Come back here and take what's coming to you! I'll bite your legs off!


I could no longer resist, sorry.

When Danger reared its ugly head
Sir Robin turned his tail and fled...

 

[Flying Crane]

Run away? Hell, I've done it, more than once. That might be the only reason I'm here now, alive, to type this. I can't ever be sure about that, tho. Another choice might have been just as good. But you make a choice and it takes you someplace. My choice to run took me home, safely. So it was a good choice.

I understand that running isn't a choice for everyone, nor for every sitation. But there it is.

 

[MJS]

Because it is true. I know for dead certain that I do not yet have the skills to defend myself properly against an armed attacker. Especially if he is not just asking for my wallet but wanting to attack me.

I am not ashamed to admit this.
Let me prove this by saying it again: I do not have the skill and the experience to deal with that. If I try, the odds are beyond bad.

So I'll run. Because that is my best bet. And if that fails or the attacker catches up with me, I am still not worse off than when I decided to run in the first place.

And if I can't run because my kids are with me, I'll have to see it as I go along. I'll tell THEM to run while I can hopefully stay upright long enough to grant them an escape. And I'll probably snuff it sooner or later, because I don't yet have the ability to fight with confidence. If I would have to do this now, I'd try to throw sand in his face, throw bricks, a garbage can, or do anything to delay to create an opening to run, or put off the inevitable.
This is also why I put so much emphasis on awareness and avoidance: they are the only things I can rely on yet, because my fighting skills are not good enough to face an armed or determined attacker.

As to whether I would freeze or not: that is possible. I have been jumped by friends 'for fun'. And the only reason they managed to laugh about it afterwards was that they jumped away instantly. But these are reflexes. If someone comes at you while you are aware of it, the reaction may be different. I only have a couple of years of MA under my belt, and I know where I am, ability wise. I know I can outfight the average joe, and if he does not expect me to fight back, it will go bad for him.
On the other hand, maybe he is an experienced fighter or worse: an epxerienced knife fighter. In that case I know that I am not going to cut it, so running -if possible- is my best bet because I don't lose anything by trying.

And running is perfectly fine. However, IMO, the difference lies in this....it seems to me that the majority of people who're advocating running because that is their only answer, is just that...their only answer. They're doing nothing, unlike you, I assume, to improve on those areas. I'm assuming that you, during your training, are working an solid answers to the situations I mentioned earlier. I dont know what you train in, your rank, how you train, etc. so again, this is only an assumption on my part.

 

[MJS]

Like I said I see freeze as more an "involentary submission" to a situation. There are certain pros and cons to running away. Its all depends on the intent of your attacker if he is there to mug you he less likely to attack you for running away, If he us there to prove his manhood he may chase you down seeing your running away as a sign of fear.

Thats why I always tell my students that you need to know your enemy. If you are dealing with a criminal assault (violence or threat of violence to commit a crime) that person is "going to work" and often times won't risk greater threat of punishment over pride. If your dealing with the average tough guy, you can easily defuse the situation by first posturing to assert yourself as a hard target then by giving them a "safe out." For example a lot of "tough guys" like to use their girl friends as a pretext for a fight & most often it can be defused by first making that counter threat and then by a playing dumb and offering a peace offering. Basicly the words "You might be big but you ain't that big and I don't care for people threatening me. She never told me she had a man & if I'm stepping on your toes with her, I'm sorry but we can settle this by letting it die here and drink a beer togather or we can step outside & beat on each other for no reason."

Great points. I've said that many times that its very important to assess each situation and respond accordingly, as each one will most likely be different.

Ussually that ends it but I've had a few guys who think they are in a gang because they have friends with them, in those cases make sure the first guy goes down in the first few hits & you gain a decisive victory ASAP nothing like watching someone seriously hurt you buddy to take the wind out your sails. I'm with MJS the idea of retreating often times makes issues worse and I think those legal cases are point blank stupid. Let me give you a example; a "friend of mine" was involved in an altercation where his drugged up lil brother attacked him in his home with a knife. He hit his brother in the head with a hammer & is currently pending a charge of malicious wounding. Problem is the LEO investigating believes that he should retreat from his lil brother while the state says there is a castle law that allows someone to defend their home, family, property or self.

There have been a bunch of threads on the topic of retreating, both in the general sd areas and Kenpo. My opinion holds the same...people IMO will tell you to run, because that is the safe bet. I mean, how many times do we hear about a store clerk defending themselves, the police say it was a brave thing to do but also make a point of advising people that its not the best thing to do. Personally, I work hard for the things I have. There is nothing that says the BG wont blow my head off after I hand over my stuff. Its happened many many times and personally, if I stand a chance of getting shot anyways, I may as well go out with a fight.

 

[MJS]

I was always taught to do both;

First; fight hard and put him down, second; flee before the fuzz shows up.

Just kidding.

Actually, depending on the situation, I may do just that. I doubt the badguy would call help for someone else, but instead leave them for dead. I'm sure this'll sound cold and mean to some, but hey...he obviously doesnt give a crap about me, so I dont care about him.

 

[theletch1]

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Actually, depending on the situation, I may do just that. I doubt the badguy would call help for someone else, but instead leave them for dead. I'm sure this'll sound cold and mean to some, but hey...he obviously doesnt give a crap about me, so I dont care about him.

Doesn't sound cold hearted to me and if you add one simple line to K831s post it's actually sound advice...

Put 'em down, run like hell... call the police from a safe location. Just putting 'em down and running puts you at a legal disadvantage but if you extricate yourself from the area to somewhere you deem safe and then call the police and make a report before the BG does you should be on more stable ground.

 

[MJS]

Doesn't sound cold hearted to me and if you add one simple line to K831s post it's actually sound advice...

Put 'em down, run like hell... call the police from a safe location. Just putting 'em down and running puts you at a legal disadvantage but if you extricate yourself from the area to somewhere you deem safe and then call the police and make a report before the BG does you should be on more stable ground.

Good point. Then again, if I was fortunate enough to KO the SOB that tried to attack me, maybe he wouldn't recall what happened.

Badguy: "Officer, I tried to mug this white guy, and he did this crazy Kenpo stuff on my ***...knocked me the **** out and I dont remember nothing, other than him whoopin' my ***."

 

[Draven]

Good point. Then again, if I was fortunate enough to KO the SOB that tried to attack me, maybe he wouldn't recall what happened.

Badguy: "Officer, I tried to mug this white guy, and he did this crazy Kenpo stuff on my ***...knocked me the **** out and I dont remember nothing, other than him whoopin' my ***."

Nah, they just call the cops and say you mugged them and you get charged for malicious wounding. Trust me I know, I could say more but the case is pending...

 

[Guardian]

[/font][/color]

Actually, depending on the situation, I may do just that. I doubt the badguy would call help for someone else, but instead leave them for dead. I'm sure this'll sound cold and mean to some, but hey...he obviously doesnt give a crap about me, so I dont care about him.

That's what I'm talking about, stay around for what, he/she attacks me, I'm not waiting around to see if they believe my story for the dirtbags, not in this lifetime, sorry, not going to happen. I might call from a payphone or some other phone aways away from the scene if I suddenly get a conscious, but that's about it.

As far as run, as stated, it depends on the situation.