If your art has tests, are they cumulative or do your students brain dump?

[Flying Crane]

In my middle school math classes we didn't do quizzes on 5 + 5, 10 - 3, and 3 x 3. We still exercised those skills when we did tests on 4x + 5 = 13, we would use subtraction and division in the process of those equations.

I agree, but that is an imperfect analogy.
Do you have a white belt kata that is different from a green belt kata? If so, what do they contain? Why would you stop practicing the one after you learn the other?

Maybe the structure of the system and it’s curriculum in which I train is fundamentally different from yours, I dunno.

 

[skribs]

White Belt kata is an H pattern* with down blocks and straight punches, all in front stance.

Green Belt kata is the same H pattern* with down blocks, punches, open hand strikes, and inside blocks, and includes both front stance and back stance.

*Really it's an i pattern, but the font on this site doesn't have serifs on a capital "I", so I didn't want you to think I meant L pattern.

 

[Flying Crane]

Our warmup at our annual picnic requires a LOT of black belts to help organize everyone, and we only do the very basics.

Ok, so who out of that group is really your teacher? Is it one particular person, or are you a student of the “teaching staff” of that school?

Who is actually giving you instruction, who has authority to critique and give you corrections, and test and promotions?

There needs to be some level of consistency. If some black belt who you have never trained with before or perhaps never even seen before comes along at one of these events and suddenly starts telling you that you are doing things wrong, do you trust him?

 

[Flying Crane]

White Belt kata is an H pattern* with down blocks and straight punches, all in front stance.

Green Belt kata is the same H pattern* with down blocks, punches, open hand strikes, and inside blocks, and includes both front stance and back stance.

*Really it's an i pattern, but the font on this site doesn't have serifs on a capital "I", so I didn't want you to think I meant L pattern.

Ok, so what is your reasoning for stopping the practice of the one, after you learn the other?

And, what benefit do you see from practicing kata? How is that viewed in your school?

 

[Headhunter]

Honestly I think that's a bit silly you should always keep practicing the stuff you've learnt or whets the point in learning it

 

[MI_martialist]

Aren't they all cumulative? Do you expect someone with 5 years experience to have the same stances, focus, strikes, etc as someone with 4 months experience? A base is a base, but with more experience, the expectations are raised.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

White Belt kata is an H pattern* with down blocks and straight punches, all in front stance.

Green Belt kata is the same H pattern* with down blocks, punches, open hand strikes, and inside blocks, and includes both front stance and back stance.

*Really it's an i pattern, but the font on this site doesn't have serifs on a capital "I", so I didn't want you to think I meant L pattern.

How do you improve upon the white belt kata if you don't continue to practice it? Or are you suggesting that once you pass white belt it's suggesting you already have mastery/an advanced understanding of that kata?

 

[JR 137]

Well, there is something to be said about keeping class size and testing group size small enough to be under control. That means there is enough room for everyone and that the teacher(s) are able to give each student quality instruction, which means some amount of attention and direct and personal feedback.

Honestly, I cannot imagine how someone can give quality instruction, or a meaningful exam, to a group of 50 or 100 people at a time.

You could have one person running it, and have, say, 1 assistant overseeing each group of 5-10 students that are testing.

I’ve seen a head person run a test for 50 students. He had senior black belts circulating through the group while he was in front telling the students what to do and circulating himself. During sparring, he climbed on a ladder for a bird’s eye view of the entire floor. If a senior black felt someone wasn’t up to standards and the one running the test didn’t notice, he’d discreetly get the head guy’s attention to take a closer look.

It can definitely work. The person running the test has to be pretty competent though. He/she probably has to be looking for red flags more than anything else IMO.

 

[Flying Crane]

You could have one person running it, and have, say, 1 assistant overseeing each group of 5-10 students that are testing.

I’ve seen a head person run a test for 50 students. He had senior black belts circulating through the group while he was in front telling the students what to do and circulating himself. During sparring, he climbed on a ladder for a bird’s eye view of the entire floor. If a senior black felt someone wasn’t up to standards and the one running the test didn’t notice, he’d discreetly get the head guy’s attention to take a closer look.

It can definitely work. The person running the test has to be pretty competent though. He/she probably has to be looking for red flags more than anything else IMO.

People do make it work to their satisfaction. I personally don’t trust the quality in that kind of situation.

 

[skribs]

Ok, so who out of that group is really your teacher? Is it one particular person, or are you a student of the “teaching staff” of that school?

Who is actually giving you instruction, who has authority to critique and give you corrections, and test and promotions?

There needs to be some level of consistency. If some black belt who you have never trained with before or perhaps never even seen before comes along at one of these events and suddenly starts telling you that you are doing things wrong, do you trust him?

The bit you're quoting was about the annual picnic. Which isn't really a class and is definitely not a test. We have about 30-40 active black belts at our school, so they are usually on the perimeter keeping the kids in line, and we're not doing critiques during this event as the goal is just to have fun together.

Ok, so what is your reasoning for stopping the practice of the one, after you learn the other?

And, what benefit do you see from practicing kata? How is that viewed in your school?

Kata help reinforce the techniques, teach discipline (especially for the kids who want to rush through it), help strengthen our legs and reinforce the stances, and help with memory and neurological pathways (we had a brain cancer survivor who found the forms to really help her get her mind back on track).

My reasoning is as I said above. In middle school, I was practicing my basic arithmetic in the context of algebra, i.e. if I needed to do 4x + 5x = Y, then I'd still need to know 4 + 5 = 9, so 4x + 5x = 9x. If the advanced form includes all concepts covered in previous forms, but expanded on, why do you need to practice the previous form?

Honestly I think that's a bit silly you should always keep practicing the stuff you've learnt or whets the point in learning it

If the concept is learned, and the concept can be practiced with a more advanced pattern, then what is the point of keeping the simpler patterns? The patterns (whether it's a 1-step drill, a combination, or a kata) are tools with which to teach the concepts. If you have a tool that progresses the concept further, why do you need to go back to another tool?

How do you improve upon the white belt kata if you don't continue to practice it? Or are you suggesting that once you pass white belt it's suggesting you already have mastery/an advanced understanding of that kata?

Well, for the most part you do keep katas for a few belts, and you're expected to improve them. However, the kata is not the goal. The kata is a tool with which to teach the concepts. You don't improve on the white belt kata, you improve on katas in general. Both in terms of the skill you use with the kata, and in the ability to learn and memorize more complicated kata.

You could have one person running it, and have, say, 1 assistant overseeing each group of 5-10 students that are testing.

I’ve seen a head person run a test for 50 students. He had senior black belts circulating through the group while he was in front telling the students what to do and circulating himself. During sparring, he climbed on a ladder for a bird’s eye view of the entire floor. If a senior black felt someone wasn’t up to standards and the one running the test didn’t notice, he’d discreetly get the head guy’s attention to take a closer look.

It can definitely work. The person running the test has to be pretty competent though. He/she probably has to be looking for red flags more than anything else IMO.

The master runs the test. Several other black belts help judge (each has a paper for a specific group of students), but the master is in charge. The judges sit at the judges' table and offer critiques during the test, which the testers must fix.

However, the big thing is space. We do not have the space to test 50 people at a time, let alone 80 like we usually have. Even 30 is cramped. So there's no way we're testing 80 people unless we either rent out a venue with enough space, or people sit down until its time to perform the techniques specific to their test.

 

[JR 137]

People do make it work to their satisfaction. I personally don’t trust the quality in that kind of situation.

Depends on who’s running the show and how long they’ve been doing it.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

However, the kata is not the goal. The kata is a tool with which to teach the concepts.

I agree with this.

You don't improve on the white belt kata, you improve on katas in general. Both in terms of the skill you use with the kata, and in the ability to learn and memorize more complicated kata.

I actively disagree with this. Each kata teaches you something else, that can be improved on. The skill set is not kata, it's what each kata teaches. So if you stop practicing one, you are no longer improving what that one teaches.

In SKK we have a few of the "H" (I) shaped kata, and one of them (1 pinan) is the first kata we learn...I'm guessing it's the same for you. As a black belt when I was training there, any day we did kata, that is the first one that I would do. Doing that allowed me to focus very specifically on the movements it teaches, and continue improving my weight shifts/footwork. It didn't matter that I also know other kata with those movements but more advanced punches/blocks...I would also practice those each time before getting to my newer material. Or if I was focusing specifically on learning something new, so I didn't have that time, I would practice them at my house once I got home. The idea that after a few belts I 'no longer need' to work on it is completely alien to me.

 

[skribs]

As others have said, there are lots of things you may learn in class that aren't on your test. Why is it okay to forget those, but not okay for students to have some of the older patterns not be required for future tests?

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

As others have said, there are lots of things you may learn in class that aren't on your test. Why is it okay to forget those, but not okay for students to have some of the older patterns not be required for future tests?

What things would you consider ok to forget? I must have missed those responses.

 

[Dirty Dog]

As others have said, there are lots of things you may learn in class that aren't on your test. Why is it okay to forget those, but not okay for students to have some of the older patterns not be required for future tests?

Who says it's ok to forget material?
Just because it's not on the test doesn't mean you shouldn't learn it. And practice it.
Same with non-MA school. If you're in class to pass the test, rather than learn as much as you can, you're probably in the wrong class.

 

[skribs]

What things would you consider ok to forget? I must have missed those responses.

Drills and combinations that are made up on-the-spot by a creative instructor.

 

[skribs]

There might be other things, certain punching combinations that are frequently mixed up and changed to keep people sharp and nimble, but these drills might not be codified into the formal curriculum. Those may or may not be on a test and could be forgotten because over time there could be quite a lot of these, depending on how creative the instructor is. But that is ok if everyone understands that these are spontaneous drills that are open to ones creativity and imagination.

From one of the earlier replies in this very thread.

 

[Gnarlie]

The issue with brain dumping for me is that higher grades need to be able to help lower grades. They can't do that in the brain dump scenario. Which I guess is OK if the green belts and white belts are never in the same class, and the syllabus is structured in such a way that it isn't a problem.

But still, IMO there isn't that much new material at each belt level that the whole time in class needs to be dedicated to it.

That time is better spent re-practicing something known (basic foundations) than practicing only new, more advanced skills and dropping the underlying basics.

There are some things that hold true right through the journey, and those tend to be the things in the early forms.

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk

 

[Finlay]

I have r long kata test etc. And have done one where knowledge is assumed.

In my opinion, you should only not be tested on a technique if is it supposed by a more advance expression.

For example in tkd, at lower belts you can be tested on single kicks, in high grades and black belt then maybe double kicks and combinations

In krav, you may be tested on the higher level application of a movement you did when you just started.

In balintawak, you may be tested on having a deeper understanding on a movement you did on the first day



This build a system for a load of fragmented techniques and also means that during a test the examiner may as for a simpler expression and it (should be) no problem

If you test is a bunch of memorized techniques. Then maybe it is an issue with the art not the exam

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Drills and combinations that are made up on-the-spot by a creative instructor.

There are two differences I see. The first is that kata are a part of the system, and as such should be learned/practiced, as each kata is used to train something different. That's not true of drills that an instructor makes.

The second difference is that, from what @Flying Crane stated, I am assuming that he's referring to the short drills you practice in order to learn creativity/spontaneity while training. In that case, you actively don't want to be memorizing and working on all of them. Instead you want to be able to be given a drill, and do it on the spot, so that you learn how to adapt. I actually have had those as parts of tests before; either no-minds where someone punches/grabs however they choose and I have to react, or being told do "X then Y then Z" and expected to do it well, with no advanced warning. There are different expectations because the purpose is different.