If BJJ is so effective, why isn't everybody doing it?

[JowGaWolf]

Have you seen those same people work hard for 3 hours straight at kata?

Yes, you were exaggerating.

I've done forms for 2 hours and I had to stop because my legs could not properly support me.
2 hours of this form made me wish I was doing anything but that form. I don't know how wrestling is, but with forms like this, you don't want to be completely exhausted because your joints actually begin to fail and it only takes a sloppy foot plant or turn to rip the joint. A person should stop the moment the person feels like they can no longer support good structure. To go beyond that is inviting injury.

 

[Kung Fu Wang166 196]

Have you seen those same people work hard for 3 hours straight at kata?

Yes, you were exaggerating.

I have done form for 6 hours (12 noon - 6 pm) daily and 6 days a week for 3 months (during the summer). My long fist teacher would pair 2 persons in one group. When I did the form, my partner watched. When my partner did the form, I watched.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I have done form for 6 hours (12 noon - 6 pm) daily and 6 days a week for 3 months (during the summer). My long fist teacher would pair 2 persons in one group. When I did the form, my partner watched. When my partner did the form, I watched.

I should have broken my training up like that. I did mine back to back.

 

[Kung Fu Wang166 196]

I should have broken my training up like that. I did mine back to back.

Doing back to back may be too hard for your body. When I walked on the beach, I would throw a groin kick followed by face punch. I then walked 4 (or 6) steps and do it again. I enjoy of doing this way. I can repeat my kick punch combo 1,000 times and still not feel tired.

Today, I don't train forms any more. I just repeat my combo drills (such as roundhouse kick, side kick, back kick) over and over.

 

[Anarax]

Until you get your neck cranked or something horrible.

Neck cranks are frowned upon at a lot of BJJ schools, and you still have the tap to stop it at anytime. "Something horrible" is very vague.

 

[drop bear4]

Neck cranks are frowned upon at a lot of BJJ schools, and you still have the tap to stop it at anytime. "Something horrible" is very vague.

Neck cranks, Toe holds, suplexes, heel hooks.

A whole bunch of stuff that comes on faster than you can deal with.

I would prefer to get knocked out than have my knee destroyed.

 

[Kung Fu Wang166 196]

I would prefer to get knocked out than have my knee destroyed.

Something like this.

 

[DaveB]

Because it is hard.

And also why kata really should have acrobatics. Because then if you can't do it it becomes pretty obvious.

I know guys who could cripple you wrestling.

Until you get your neck cranked or something horrible.

Is it just me or does everyone else hear the opening of that 80's song chorus "So Macho, he's gotta be, So Macho.." whenever reading db's posts.

 

[drop bear4]

Is it just me or does everyone else hear the opening of that 80's song chorus "So Macho, he's gotta be, So Macho.." whenever reading db's posts.

I was going more for Stan Bush.

 

[Dirty Dog4 2]

I was going more for Stan Bush.

 

[Tony Dismukes164 60]

If BJJ is so effective, why isn't everybody doing it?

MA include kick, punch, lock, throw, and ground game. The ground game is only 1/5 of the total package. You have to use

1. kick to enter the kicking range.
2. punch to set up punch.
3. clinch to take your opponent down.
4. throw to set up your ground game.

Without 1, 2, 3, you cannot even reach to 4.

Properly taught, BJJ should give you plenty of 3 and 4, and even a little bit of 1 and 2. Watch the early fights of Royce and Rickson Gracie for a sense of how that works - they were fighting pure BJJ, not blending it with other arts. It's unfortunate that some schools are now focusing exclusively on sport ground grappling, but that isn't all of BJJ any more than point fighting is all of Karate.

 

[Tony Dismukes164 60]

IMO, the ground game is the most easiest part of the MA training. You don't have to experience

- kick to the chest.
- punch to the head.
- throw on your head.

When you feel uncomfortable, you just tab out. The new game will start all over again. One day when you are 80 years old, you can still play ground game with your grandchildren.

Being on your back with someone all over you is not a feeling most people want to deal with day in and day out. They absolutely should learn to deal with it, but wanting to and should are two very different things.

I haven’t done BJJ, but in this sense, wrestling’s the same thing. It’s a real grind. The day in and day out feeling of someone trying to pin you to the ground and do what they want while you’re fighting it off isn’t very appealing to most people. Hell, I wrestled and coached it for all those years and asked myself if I really wanted that grind again when I was looking to re-start MA. And I loved wrestling. I guess I didn’t miss it enough to start BJJ. I love karate too much.

I’ve been working wrestling as an athletic trainer this season. There were several times I thought “thank god im not out there anymore” when seeing some of the stuff guys were getting put into. Not from a perverse point of view, but from a “that really, really sucks to be in” point of view.

If I want to sharpen up my grappling skills, I’m sure their coach wouldn’t mind me getting on the mat during practice every now and then or even more often. It would give his guys a new look/occasional partner. But I’m good right now And I’ve got to get past this whole disc issue anyway. Just waiting for the shot on the 24th.

I'm not exaggerating at all. Most people CAN NOT roll hard for three minutes straight. Going full strength on strength against someone roughly your same size for three straight minutes will be the most physically taxing thing you can do if you aren't used to it.

I've seen hundreds of TMA black belts that look like they'd have trouble walking a block to the corner store, or identifying their own penis. In bjj (or any competitive style that REQUIRES fitness), you don't see a lot of that.

A lot depends on what you are used to. An experienced striker may be physically and psychologically crushed by a couple rounds of ground grappling if he isn't used to it. On the other hand, a grappler who has never been hit may not do much better their first time in the ring doing full contact stand-up striking sparring.

Cardio-wise, I think stand-up wrestling for takedowns is the most demanding subdomain of the martial arts. Both groundfighting and standup striking offer more opportunities to catch your breath.

Groundfighting is probably the safest subset of full-contact sparring, If you know what you're doing and spar sensibly, you can put achieve a much higher ratio of hours to injuries than in hard-contact standup sparring or takedowns. On the other hand, that means BJJ classes do devote a lot more time to free sparring. You won't find many Karate or Muay Thai schools where half of every class is devoted to full-contact sparring.

 

[Headhunter]

Because they don't want to....it really is as simple as that

 

[marques]

Because they don't want to....it really is as simple as that

I quite agree. It’s only needed to slow down before the impact (or just spar slow nearly all times) as BJJ needs to slow down before popping joints (or just roll slow nearly all times). I feel many good BJJ practices could be applied to Striking arts.

 

[Martial D]

A lot depends on what you are used to. An experienced striker may be physically and psychologically crushed by a couple rounds of ground grappling if he isn't used to it. On the other hand, a grappler who has never been hit may not do much better their first time in the ring doing full contact stand-up striking sparring.

Cardio-wise, I think stand-up wrestling for takedowns is the most demanding subdomain of the martial arts. Both groundfighting and standup striking offer more opportunities to catch your breath.

Groundfighting is probably the safest subset of full-contact sparring, If you know what you're doing and spar sensibly, you can put achieve a much higher ratio of hours to injuries than in hard-contact standup sparring or takedowns. On the other hand, that means BJJ classes do devote a lot more time to free sparring. You won't find many Karate or Muay Thai schools where half of every class is devoted to full-contact sparring.

Unless you're me, and your most serious ma injury ever(busted rib) happened grappling.

You're right though, in the sense that someone that is conditioned for only one or the other will find the other more difficult ( muscle memory. Etc). But for someone that alocates about equal time for both, (such asamyself)s grappling is a still more physically demanding, by a good margin.

Having years in TMA as well I'd go further and say nothing I experienced there even came close to the striking training I do now in terms of physical demands, and it was pretty 'hard core' in terms of TMA training(hard sparring, slow brutal low horse stance training, etc etc)

 

[Tony Dismukes164 60]

Unless you're me, and your most serious ma injury ever(busted rib) happened grappling.

You're right though, in the sense that someone that is conditioned for only one or the other will find the other more difficult ( muscle memory. Etc). But for someone that alocates about equal time for both, (such asamyself)s grappling is a still more physically demanding, by a good margin.

Having years in TMA as well I'd go further and say nothing I experienced there even came close to the striking training I do now in terms of physical demands, and it was pretty 'hard core' in terms of TMA training(hard sparring, slow brutal low horse stance training, etc etc)

I agree that for someone with equal experience in each, grappling is more physically exhausting than striking sparring.

On the other hand, striking sparring gives you the unpleasant experience of being hit in the face.

On the third hand, I may have gotten as many concussions from grappling as from striking.

On the fourth hand, I've spent a lot more hours free grappling than sparring full-contact striking, so the concussions per hours of sparring ratio is probably much higher for striking.

On the fifth hand ... I forget where I was going with this. Probably too many concussions along the way.

 

[Anarax]

Neck cranks, Toe holds, suplexes, heel hooks.

Suplexes aren't commonly used in BJJ.

A whole bunch of stuff that comes on faster than you can deal with.

The one caught in the submission can stop it at anytime by tapping. Sometimes people hold out for too long or turn the wrong way and accrue injury. However, in striking you can't stop your opponent's strike midway through the kinetic transfer. The training dynamics are different.

I would prefer to get knocked out than have my knee destroyed.

You have more time to feel the setup/onset of a lock than you will with a high velocity strike.

 

[drop bear4]

Suplexes aren't commonly used in BJJ.


The one caught in the submission can stop it at anytime by tapping. Sometimes people hold out for too long or turn the wrong way and accrue injury. However, in striking you can't stop your opponent's strike midway through the kinetic transfer. The training dynamics are different.


You have more time to feel the setup/onset of a lock than you will with a high velocity strike.

Heavy throws. Including suplexes are pretty common. My guess is whoever is training you is being nice. That's fine I can also be nice striking.

You can take a knee striking any time as well. Striking just doesn't do the same damage with one technique.

When did he have time to tap?

 

[Buka38 5]

As I look back over the last forty years I think everyone is doing BJJ now. At least as a general comparison.

On the subject of hard rolling, I don’t know, it kind of depends on what you’re talking about. I’ve been rolling for a while, it’s the most relaxed I am in anything I’ve ever trained.

If you go hard with me you better be a lot better grappler than me, because I’m really good at stalling. Better have better endurance, too. Because I’ll gas you out in less then five minutes if you’re going hard.

The best BJJ guys I’ve trained with are so damn relaxed you think they’re almost asleep...until they make me tap. Tap early and tap often I always say.

 

[Deleted member 39746]

Im 50/50 on grappling and i think they tend to focus on ground grappling? (obviously i have seen various discussions on it and it tends to be the flaw is neglect on standing up/ striking ) I haven't really looked into it that much. (as in circulems of the schools available who teach it)


I would rather focus on standing up grappling and get more of a escape based ground grappling system and break falls so i dont instantly get screwed if i inevitably get knocked over. I don't know how they do that. Plus i dont want to be persuaded by somone who extends it further than it actually is. (in simple i dont want to fall under the "BJJ Cult" as people call it, im fine with my tactical cult)

Not discounting the use of grappling however, its something i would do eventually in some capacity and wish to.

Anyway those are my ramblings why i haven't really looked into it.

addendum: Plus it seems like it would conflict with "everyone is armed" as a state of mind.