How Would You Rework Techniques That Have Potential?

[DIYorDie89]

This is something I’ve been wanting to ask and I figured I’d start a thread on this topic. What techniques do you believe have the potential to work on the streets, but could be reworked? For example, let’s take joint locks.

 

[Tez3]

You start, what techniques do you think have potential?

 

[Bill Mattocks]

This is something I’ve been wanting to ask and I figured I’d start a thread on this topic. What techniques do you believe have the potential to work on the streets, but could be reworked? For example, let’s take joint locks.

Not to be contrary, but I would question what kind of technique would not work 'in the street'. That would not be something I'd call a valid technique, or it wasn't taught properly, or it wasn't learned properly.

There are many techniques that are perfectly valid but for a very limited purpose or circumstance. I would hope that I could choose the right tools from my training toolbox for the situation.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

You might want to clarify what you mean by techniques, since you're coming from a kenpo background. To me, and other kenpoists of various styles I've talked to, a technique is a set of movements (like forearm block-->grab-->pull in-->hook punch). But in other styles, a technique would be any one of those-so a hook punch is a technique, or a sideblade kick is a technique. It's caused confusion when I've asked similar questions in the past so figured I'd get that part out of the way first.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Not to be contrary, but I would question what kind of technique would not work 'in the street'. That would not be something I'd call a valid technique, or it wasn't taught properly, or it wasn't learned properly.

There are many techniques that are perfectly valid but for a very limited purpose or circumstance. I would hope that I could choose the right tools from my training toolbox for the situation.

This might be related to the post I just made (saw this after hitting enter), but that depends on the definition of technique. In SKK for instance, there are techniques which are groups of strikes/blocks/grabs, some of which aren't meant to be realistic but instead meant to teach a principle or increase an ability (ie: striking/transition speed, or jumping power). Some, I even learned the way it was taught for teaching a skill, and a formal (AFAIK formal) variation that's meant to be more effective.

 

[Cynik75]

I think jab has potential. It can be reworked by using knuckleduster instead a fist.

Maaaan, you have written in other topic "have a 1st degree black belt in American Kenpo". Every new question you ask make me more sure you lied to us or your Kenpo gym was/is garbage.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

This might be related to the post I just made (saw this after hitting enter), but that depends on the definition of technique. In SKK for instance, there are techniques which are groups of strikes/blocks/grabs, some of which aren't meant to be realistic but instead meant to teach a principle or increase an ability (ie: striking/transition speed, or jumping power). Some, I even learned the way it was taught for teaching a skill, and a formal (AFAIK formal) variation that's meant to be more effective.

Sure, but that's not what I would call a technique, that's an exercise. Upper body block, uppercut is a technique. If it's not working on the street, Houston, we have a problem.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Sure, but that's not what I would call a technique, that's an exercise. Upper body block, uppercut is a technique. If it's not working on the street, Houston, we have a problem.

Yeah, that's the difference in terminology between systems. I'd call an upper body block a block, an uppercut a strike, an ankle lock a lock, tai otoshi a throw, etc, while an uppercut into a tai-otoshi into an ankle lock a combination or a technique. From what I've seen, this is only true for ken/mpo styles.

On this forum I specify or stick with 'combination' since the word technique just causes confusion. And without knowing which terminology OP uses, there's bound to be a lot of miscommunication.

 

[DIYorDie89]

You start, what techniques do you think have potential?

I’ll try to explain this the best I can. One technique I could think of at the moment is a wrist lock. For example, if a thug goes to push you with one hand, grab the fingers with both hands like you would with the back of the thug’s hand, bring it down and towards you while you are taking a step backwards. And from there, just drive the hand downward.

I think jab has potential. It can be reworked by using knuckleduster instead a fist.

Maaaan, you have written in other topic "have a 1st degree black belt in American Kenpo". Every new question you ask make me more sure you lied to us or your Kenpo gym was/is garbage.

So what if I posted about my belt on another topic? I thought this was a forum, not a place for the new guy to get dumped on. Unless you got something else that’s helpful on this thread, maybe you should shut right up.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

@Bill Mattocks and @Cynik75 Here's an example of a green belt technique in American Kenpo.

That was not one I chose specifically to highlight my point, I just chose a random mid-rank technique (per google this is a green belt technique). You should be able to see pretty easily why there might be confusion for new black belts of AK if techniques like this one should be reworked/streamlined.

It also explains why newer black belts tend to look into other self-defense systems to create a streamlined version of the system. Whether or not that's needed/beneficial is a topic I'll bow out of though.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

I will say I have experimented with techniques I have seen various places outside of my dojo, like on Youtube or the Bubishi or described in various forums, sometimes in the dojo, sometimes with training partners, to see if we could 'make it work'. If it does, great. If it does not, I have to consider that I might not be doing it correctly.

An example I played around with some time ago was from the Bubishi, but I forget the name of the technique. It basically involved checking a step forward by the opponent with the flat of the foot on the opposing leg, while grasping the opponent's gi top with both hands. This causes them to fall forward as their step forward is interrupted. Then the defender falls backwards, keeping their checking leg extended, and throws them over it. It worked for us, but seemed awkward, plus it involved falling backwards ourselves, which is something alien to our style. Still, "a person's unbalance is the same as a weight." In this case, we're using our own unbalance as a weight tied to the person we just tripped and then throwing them over that axis. I get it, but I'm not sure I'd ever use it. I also might not be doing it right. Definitely not something I'd employ in self-defense I think.

 

[DIYorDie89]

You might want to clarify what you mean by techniques, since you're coming from a kenpo background. To me, and other kenpoists of various styles I've talked to, a technique is a set of movements (like forearm block-->grab-->pull in-->hook punch). But in other styles, a technique would be any one of those-so a hook punch is a technique, or a sideblade kick is a technique. It's caused confusion when I've asked similar questions in the past so figured I'd get that part out of the way first.

Just seeing this, I don’t mean Ken/mpo’s (like a set of strikes/punches/knees/elbows/throws/joint lock off of a single punch). I mean stand alone techniques like a single strike, punch, knee, elbow, throw or joint lock. A Kenpo as a noun is a set of techniques off of a punch.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

I’ll try to explain this the best I can. One technique I could think of at the moment is a wrist lock. For example, if a thug goes to push you with one hand, grab the fingers with both hands like you would with the back of the thug’s hand, bring it down and towards you while you are taking a step backwards. And from there, just drive the hand downward.

So what about this do you think needs to be reworked? Is there some reason that you're unable to use a wrist lock to bring someone down?

 

[Bill Mattocks]

@Bill Mattocks and @Cynik75 Here's an example of a green belt technique in American Kenpo.

That was not one I chose specifically to highlight my point, I just chose a random mid-rank technique (per google this is a green belt technique). You should be able to see pretty easily why there might be confusion for new black belts of AK if techniques like this one should be reworked/streamlined.

It also explains why newer black belts tend to look into other self-defense systems to create a streamlined version of the system. Whether or not that's needed/beneficial is a topic I'll bow out of though.

That's quite something.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Just seeing this, I don’t mean Ken/mpo’s (like a set of strikes/punches/knees/elbows/throws/joint lock off of a single punch). I mean stand alone techniques like a single strike, punch, knee, elbow, throw or joint lock. A Kenpo as a noun is a set of techniques off of a punch.

Cool. Just checking since each style's terminology is different. So then my question becomes the reverse of Tez's. What techniques do you think don't work as they are?

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

That's quite something.

That's probably the best word for it. On an unrelated note, I've taken an indefinite break from ken/mpo styles for reasons you can probably guess from that video. I have been spending free time slowly breaking up the shaolin kempo SD tech's into smaller versions/shedding the 'fluff' to make them viable.

 

[Tez3]

I’ll try to explain this the best I can. One technique I could think of at the moment is a wrist lock. For example, if a thug goes to push you with one hand, grab the fingers with both hands like you would with the back of the thug’s hand, bring it down and towards you while you are taking a step backwards. And from there, just drive the hand downward.

So what if I posted about my belt on another topic? I thought this was a forum, not a place for the new guy to get dumped on. Unless you got something else that’s helpful on this thread, maybe you should shut right up.

Mmm, a technique you need to work on is communicating properly, no one is dumping on you, they are reacting to your perceived arrogance in thinking you know more than people who have, collectively, been training for hundreds of years, who are senior instructors and even founders of styles. We have serving and retired military as well as serving and retired police officers (some have been both) on here, there's professional security people, bodyguards, MMA and full contact kick boxers, prison warders etc etc basically a lot of people who know about violence and you seem unwilling to listen to them.

If you are going to behave like a stroppy toddler telling people to shut up then any 'rude' replies you get are on your own head. Try tact. Tact is the art of telling someone to go to hell in such a way they look forward to the journey so please play nice, we'd like to hear from adults not children. This is the way.

 

[drop bear]

The simple answer is, during sparring you try to hit that technique untill you get good at it.

 

[drop bear]

So what about this do you think needs to be reworked? Is there some reason that you're unable to use a wrist lock to bring someone down?

Most people can't.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Most people can't.

Nothing is always. Teach them to do it properly, and if they can't make it work, or work consistently, move on. Consider also the possibility that there's something unusual about the person they're trying to use it on. I've put a lot of people down with various applications of wrist locks. I also trained one young lady whose wrists were oddly flexible in odd ways. And wrist locks didn't affect her in any noticeable way.