How to spar without sustaining major injuries?

Jenny_in_Chico

Black Belt
Joined
Aug 28, 2009
Messages
531
Reaction score
30
Location
California
I do disagree with the idea that you are to expect hard contact in a semi contact sport sparring session as you need to learn how to take a knock for "the street" as some have suggested earlier. Semi contact free sparring is just that and has absolutely nothing to do with self defence.

If you are to be training and conditioning yourself for a hard knock for self defence purposes then that should be well explained to you first so that there are no surprises.

I was one of those who suggested that one of the benefits of sparring is that it teaches us to handle getting hit. I'm coming from a kenpo background, and that is the mindset in my art. I overlooked the possibility that a person could be training in TKD as a sport, rather than for SD purposes. No criticism was intended.
 

l_uk3y

Green Belt
Joined
Nov 12, 2009
Messages
125
Reaction score
2
Location
Australia
Yeah but there becomes a limit. I am quite the fan of copping a controlled kick or being punched in the face. The unexpected contact sort of shocks me and starts to bring the adrenalin in. This to me is good experience and useful.

What isn't good to me is when you take shots that all of a sudden mean your off training to recover and effects your job and your life at home etc. Remember the topic of this convo is "Major Injuries" which I see as injuries that you take home and they hold you back for recovery. Accidents do happen but my belief is that most are avoidable.

As a guide from general MA injuries (whether it be sparring or general) I would have taken 3 months of last year off training. (Although a Hamstring injury was 2 months).
Several others from our class took similar time off due to knee/ankle injuries etc.
Thats a considerable chuck of the year off just through injuries that realistically should only be a few weeks taking proper accidents into consideration.
 

jks9199

Administrator
Staff member
Lifetime Supporting Member
Joined
Jul 2, 2006
Messages
22,175
Reaction score
2,358
Location
Northern VA
As a guide from general MA injuries (whether it be sparring or general) I would have taken 3 months of last year off training. (Although a Hamstring injury was 2 months).
Several others from our class took similar time off due to knee/ankle injuries etc.
Thats a considerable chuck of the year off just through injuries that realistically should only be a few weeks taking proper accidents into consideration.

That's a pattern that's worrisome. You've got several people losing training time and probably some work time due to the same sorts of injuries... There's a clue in that. Something's not being done properly; I don't know if they're permitting techniques that they shouldn't or if there's a control problem in sparring, or if they're pushing students to do things that they aren't ready for or if there's a problem with the training area... but somebody should be looking into the problem and addressing it.

As an example, when I was in the academy, we had to run an obstacle course. After several people got hurt in one element, the staff stopped the exercise, and looked at what was going on, then addressed that before we continued. It was done on the spot -- and it's what I'd expect. A pad was slipping when people landed on it, and so it was anchored before we continued.
 

AlanE

Yellow Belt
Joined
Feb 8, 2010
Messages
46
Reaction score
3
Location
Alaska
That's a pattern that's worrisome. You've got several people losing training time and probably some work time due to the same sorts of injuries... There's a clue in that. Something's not being done properly; I don't know if they're permitting techniques that they shouldn't or if there's a control problem in sparring, or if they're pushing students to do things that they aren't ready for or if there's a problem with the training area... but somebody should be looking into the problem and addressing it.

As an example, when I was in the academy, we had to run an obstacle course. After several people got hurt in one element, the staff stopped the exercise, and looked at what was going on, then addressed that before we continued. It was done on the spot -- and it's what I'd expect. A pad was slipping when people landed on it, and so it was anchored before we continued.

Perfect example, jks9199. This is worrisome, indeed. As well explained before and with respect, students should speak with their instructors before class if there exists a systemic injury problem. Prepare to change schools. How can leaders not know what's going on and protect? Typical sounds in some dojos every so often: First person follows script, controls contact, and gets slammed back. No one to help. First person does not hold back the next time. Escalation in physical pain exchanges is not ideal! Alternatively, cowering from one's opponent is a colossal waste of time, money, your self-esteem, your concentration, and your body.

TkJojo and l_uk3y, be prepared for action using all the lower-the-car-dealer's-price techniques you learned (be prepared, informed, specific, cool, serious, still cool, and finally appreciative). This is the next victory you must win for your precious time, money, body, and self-esteem. Be sure it's not just some toughening and learning to get along that is required (doesn't sound like it). That whole playing along with outlandish, undisciplined, and barely concerned leaders toughening nonsense has so many bad implications it's best not to go there now. Take charge of your experience because you're a human being before you're a martial artist - which when responsibly taught will have you become A HAPPIER HUMAN BEING. Teach them a little something, too. I'll cross my fingers so you can continue looking confident without doing that during "the talk." ;)
 

Bruno@MT

Senior Master
Joined
Feb 24, 2009
Messages
3,399
Reaction score
74
I use ax kick all the time in sparring. It is one of the easist kick to control.
Here is a clip of a couple of our kids sparring with control (light contact). You will see a couple of ax kicks with control.
[yt]XFhHz3qaFWA[/yt]

I just watched this clip and I am wondering something: why are they both hanging their arms down, instead of keeping their guard up?
 

JWLuiza

Black Belt
Joined
Jan 20, 2006
Messages
654
Reaction score
32
Location
Pittsburgh
I just watched this clip and I am wondering something: why are they both hanging their arms down, instead of keeping their guard up?
Rules of a sparring match mold the fighting stance. It hurts me to see that, but if that's what they wanna do. People say the same stuff about the style of sparring I do as well!
 

Bruno@MT

Senior Master
Joined
Feb 24, 2009
Messages
3,399
Reaction score
74
I was one of those who suggested that one of the benefits of sparring is that it teaches us to handle getting hit. I'm coming from a kenpo background, and that is the mindset in my art. I overlooked the possibility that a person could be training in TKD as a sport, rather than for SD purposes. No criticism was intended.

Even if you train for SD, training with medium contact and training hard is still orders of magnitude better than not training at all.

My brain is what provides my livelihood. If I cannot look at a monitor for 12 hours per day and stay focused, I have a serious problem. Being a middle class white male with an engineering job, living in a safe neighborhood, the added benefits of full contact sparring does not outweigh the risk of full contact sparring injury.
I have had one severe concussion in my life when I was young, and that was enough. It took long enough to get better. I know accidents can happen in MA training and I accept that. But I am not stepping onto the mat with some who is going to do his best to hit me really hard.

Self defense is -a- factor why I practice martial arts, but it is definitely not the only one or the most important one.
 

granfire

Sr. Grandmaster
Joined
Dec 8, 2007
Messages
15,277
Reaction score
1,033
Location
In Pain
Even if you train for SD, training with medium contact and training hard is still orders of magnitude better than not training at all.

My brain is what provides my livelihood. If I cannot look at a monitor for 12 hours per day and stay focused, I have a serious problem. Being a middle class white male with an engineering job, living in a safe neighborhood, the added benefits of full contact sparring does not outweigh the risk of full contact sparring injury.
I have had one severe concussion in my life when I was young, and that was enough. It took long enough to get better. I know accidents can happen in MA training and I accept that. But I am not stepping onto the mat with some who is going to do his best to hit me really hard.

Self defense is -a- factor why I practice martial arts, but it is definitely not the only one or the most important one.

This is probably one of the most significant posts in this debate, including 'MA is sport'

Most of us have a day job and can't afford to get hurt 'playing'
Or how good is your SD when you are hurt from training anyhow.
 

ATC

Senior Master
Joined
Jan 20, 2009
Messages
2,664
Reaction score
70
Location
San Jose
Even if you train for SD, training with medium contact and training hard is still orders of magnitude better than not training at all.

My brain is what provides my livelihood. If I cannot look at a monitor for 12 hours per day and stay focused, I have a serious problem. Being a middle class white male with an engineering job, living in a safe neighborhood, the added benefits of full contact sparring does not outweigh the risk of full contact sparring injury.
I have had one severe concussion in my life when I was young, and that was enough. It took long enough to get better. I know accidents can happen in MA training and I accept that. But I am not stepping onto the mat with some who is going to do his best to hit me really hard.

Self defense is -a- factor why I practice martial arts, but it is definitely not the only one or the most important one.
Hmmm...wouldn't the same apply to any race living in any area doing any job? Not sure what you are getting at with how your statement was worded. Also we are talking about bumps and bruises not injuries of that magnitude.
 

ATC

Senior Master
Joined
Jan 20, 2009
Messages
2,664
Reaction score
70
Location
San Jose
I just watched this clip and I am wondering something: why are they both hanging their arms down, instead of keeping their guard up?
As JWLuiza has stated the rules of the sport dictate where the hands are. Because of no punching to the face in the sport, it is better to keep your hands down as 85% of the scoreing is done to the trunk with the feet only. Plus the way to block any head or face kicks is not to block the kick at the strike target but to prevent the kick from coming up in the first places. So even when blocking head shots from a kick is easier to keep your hands down and trap the leg from coming up. This is not SD but a sport of kicking. SD or even boxing would not dictate that you do this.
 

JWLuiza

Black Belt
Joined
Jan 20, 2006
Messages
654
Reaction score
32
Location
Pittsburgh
Hmmm...wouldn't the same apply to any race living in any area doing any job? Not sure what you are getting at with how your statement was worded. Also we are talking about bumps and bruises not injuries of that magnitude.
In the US Race predicts exposure to violence above and beyond SES, but not to the same level as SES. So statistically it is a mitigating factor. What that means, no one knows, but he was just pointing out how unlikely it was he would need it. And given that the title of the thread is serious injury, we shouldn't be talking about just bumps and bruises.
 

ATC

Senior Master
Joined
Jan 20, 2009
Messages
2,664
Reaction score
70
Location
San Jose
In the US Race predicts exposure to violence above and beyond SES, but not to the same level as SES. So statistically it is a mitigating factor. What that means, no one knows, but he was just pointing out how unlikely it was he would need it. And given that the title of the thread is serious injury, we shouldn't be talking about just bumps and bruises.
No, he was not stating that at all. If that was the case then why is he even bothered with martial arts at all. He prefaced his statement with how his brain is his livelihood and then he said he had a problem with the concept of full contact anything, being a white middle class male in a safe neighborhood. There are plenty Mexican, black, Asian, and other middle class males and females living in safe neighborhoods, not to mention that there are plenty of whites also residing in the not so desirable poor or bad neighborhoods also. Not sure why the adjective of white was needed at all. He could have just as well said that he was a middle class citizen living in a safe neighborhood, regardless of the so called statistical mitigating factors. It was just an unnecessary comment no matter how you look at it.

If you really look at what you think he was trying to say he simply had to state that he was an engineer and nothing more. The rest was simply uncalled for.

Plus his statement still applies to anyone doing any job. Not just white engineers. I know plenty of engineers that are not white.

Also the OP of this thread did not sustain a serious injury and simply looks at bumps and brusies as such. A black eye is not a serious injury.
 

granfire

Sr. Grandmaster
Joined
Dec 8, 2007
Messages
15,277
Reaction score
1,033
Location
In Pain
You might not like it, but what you are and where you live has a great influence on whether or not you are likely to be in any type of altercation.

It has been a while since I read it, so I am hard pressed to give sources, but studies have shown that The majority of crimes are perpetrated by a minority (not in terms of race though) of people, and crime is locally centered.

I am sure there are plenty of other studies that show - all anti profiling efforts be damned - that there is a correlation between race, mostly education and location on how liekly it is that crimes are happening. So as affluent white white collar individual, he is less likely to need what he learns in the dojang in real life.

(same as women most likely need to beat up a friend or relative, if not their own spouse to defend themselves against an attack and not against an unknown boogieman!)
 

JWLuiza

Black Belt
Joined
Jan 20, 2006
Messages
654
Reaction score
32
Location
Pittsburgh
No, he was not stating that at all. If that was the case then why is he even bothered with martial arts at all. He prefaced his statement with how his brain is his livelihood and then he said he had a problem with the concept of full contact anything, being a white middle class male in a safe neighborhood. There are plenty Mexican, black, Asian, and other middle class males and females living in safe neighborhoods, not to mention that there are plenty of whites also residing in the not so desirable poor or bad neighborhoods also. Not sure why the adjective of white was needed at all. He could have just as well said that he was a middle class citizen living in a safe neighborhood, regardless of the so called statistical mitigating factors. It was just an unnecessary comment no matter how you look at it.

If you really look at what you think he was trying to say he simply had to state that he was an engineer and nothing more. The rest was simply uncalled for.

Plus his statement still applies to anyone doing any job. Not just white engineers. I know plenty of engineers that are not white.

Also the OP of this thread did not sustain a serious injury and simply looks at bumps and brusies as such. A black eye is not a serious injury.
And statistically, he has a valid point, not as a perpetrator of crime but as a victim of violence. It's data. You can partial out the variance due to SES and still find an effect due to race. Everything you said is true, but it doesn't change the data. Sorry. He wasn't proclaiming his worth as higher because he was white. If you think that you're reading too much into it.
 

JWLuiza

Black Belt
Joined
Jan 20, 2006
Messages
654
Reaction score
32
Location
Pittsburgh
From a Community Psychology Journal:
his study examined the associations between household income, race/ethnicity, and exposure to violence in a nationally representative sample of youth. Participants included a national probability sample of adolescents (ages 12-17), who completed a telephone interview that assessed lifetime occurrences of witnessing violence, receipt of physically abusive punishment, physical assault, and sexual assault. Results indicated that as household income increased prevalence of witnessing violence, receipt of physically abusive punishment, physical assault, and sexual assault decreased for Caucasian but not African-American or Hispanic youth. In addition to the interaction of household income with race/ethnicity, a main effect of race/ethnicity across income groups was apparent for witnessing violence. More specifically, African-American and Hispanic youth reported significantly higher rates of witnessing violence at each income level relative to their Caucasian counterparts. Findings from this nationally representative sample of youth suggest that it may be simplistic to interpret high rates of violence exposure among minority youth as due to their disproportionate representation among the economically disadvantaged in the United States. This study illustrates the importance of examining risk and protective factors separately for each type of violence experienced by youth, and underscores the need to assess the generalizability of risk and protective factors across racial/ethnic groups.
Just one example.
 

ATC

Senior Master
Joined
Jan 20, 2009
Messages
2,664
Reaction score
70
Location
San Jose
You might not like it, but what you are and where you live has a great influence on whether or not you are likely to be in any type of altercation.

It has been a while since I read it, so I am hard pressed to give sources, but studies have shown that The majority of crimes are perpetrated by a minority (not in terms of race though) of people, and crime is locally centered.

I am sure there are plenty of other studies that show - all anti profiling efforts be damned - that there is a correlation between race, mostly education and location on how liekly it is that crimes are happening. So as affluent white white collar individual, he is less likely to need what he learns in the dojang in real life.

(same as women most likely need to beat up a friend or relative, if not their own spouse to defend themselves against an attack and not against an unknown boogieman!)
All understood grandfire. But lets look at the statement again. "Being a middle class white male with an engineering job, living in a safe neighborhood".

Now we can eliminate race and color from the statement according to your explanation above because middle class and engineering indicate educated and he already states that his neighborhood is safe. Now according to you by your statement above, race, color and creed has nothing to do with anything. It is economics and education with both having equal influence on one another. So you can replace the word white with black, brown, red, yellow, tan. So if that is the case then why even state your color, race or national origin.

We can take the reverse and say "being a poor black male in a bad crime ridden neighborhood" and still eliminate the word black or any color because as you stated, poor and bad neighborhood is what are the dictating factors. So again black can be replaced by any color, thus not being needed in the statement at all.

So not matter how one wants to sugar coat it, his statement was an unnecessary one.
 

granfire

Sr. Grandmaster
Joined
Dec 8, 2007
Messages
15,277
Reaction score
1,033
Location
In Pain
your assessment is sadly false.

At current state of our society race still matters if you are being attacked or not.

Many thing play into that but it still holds true.

Sometimes being Political correct is still being wrong.
 

JWLuiza

Black Belt
Joined
Jan 20, 2006
Messages
654
Reaction score
32
Location
Pittsburgh
All understood grandfire. But lets look at the statement again. "Being a middle class white male with an engineering job, living in a safe neighborhood".

Now we can eliminate race and color from the statement according to your explanation above because middle class and engineering indicate educated and he already states that his neighborhood is safe. Now according to you by your statement above, race, color and creed has nothing to do with anything. It is economics and education with both having equal influence on one another. So you can replace the word white with black, brown, red, yellow, tan. So if that is the case then why even state your color, race or national origin.

We can take the reverse and say "being a poor black male in a bad crime ridden neighborhood" and still eliminate the word black or any color because as you stated, poor and bad neighborhood is what are the dictating factors. So again black can be replaced by any color, thus not being needed in the statement at all.

So not matter how one wants to sugar coat it, his statement was an unnecessary one.
The consensus of sociology research and community psychology research says you're wrong.
 

ATC

Senior Master
Joined
Jan 20, 2009
Messages
2,664
Reaction score
70
Location
San Jose
From a Community Psychology Journal:

his study examined the associations between household income, race/ethnicity, and exposure to violence in a nationally representative sample of youth. Participants included a national probability sample of adolescents (ages 12-17), who completed a telephone interview that assessed lifetime occurrences of witnessing violence, receipt of physically abusive punishment, physical assault, and sexual assault. Results indicated that as household income increased prevalence of witnessing violence, receipt of physically abusive punishment, physical assault, and sexual assault decreased for Caucasian but not African-American or Hispanic youth. In addition to the interaction of household income with race/ethnicity, a main effect of race/ethnicity across income groups was apparent for witnessing violence. More specifically, African-American and Hispanic youth reported significantly higher rates of witnessing violence at each income level relative to their Caucasian counterparts. Findings from this nationally representative sample of youth suggest that it may be simplistic to interpret high rates of violence exposure among minority youth as due to their disproportionate representation among the economically disadvantaged in the United States. This study illustrates the importance of examining risk and protective factors separately for each type of violence experienced by youth, and underscores the need to assess the generalizability of risk and protective factors across racial/ethnic groups.

Just one example.
This study is a joke. How much did the income rise? Did the participants move out of their respective neighborhoods? What about relatives that still live in such environment and the so called increased income participants need/want to still visit the lower income neighborhoods due to relitives or even close friends that they have bonded with. There are so many factors that I can list that can skew this so called study it isn't even funny. Plus this was a phone study. There was not and actual first hand study. Show me a study that state this from a born in situation. Study a black family that had kids born in middle to upper class neighborhoods. This so called study is flawed by design.

If you believe this study then all the middle upper class people better watch out, because this study indicated that all the crime stated is also in those middle to upper class neighborhoods. It only takes common sense to see the flaws of this study. How can one still see the same level of violence if out of the violent areas unless they are still in the same areas for some reason.:nuke:
 

JWLuiza

Black Belt
Joined
Jan 20, 2006
Messages
654
Reaction score
32
Location
Pittsburgh
Just one study I pulled really quickly. All studies have flaws. Triangulation of research has hit home the same point. Hit google scholar up and see for yourself. Minorities are at greater risk for exposure to violence. It's something that should drive policy when trying to protect people, and it is something I used as a therapist to understand the difference from growing up a white middle class male and counseling a wide diversity of patients. Pull up google scholar and look for yourself.
 

Latest Discussions

Top