How to Perform a Horse Stance Elbow?

[dvcochran]

The question specifically relates to a poomsae but I not mention the form name in an attempt not to muddy the question.
Picture moving forward or perpendicular in a horse stance and performing an elbow strike in the direction you are moving. If you were standing static in a horse stance the strike would be to the side.
How do you use your hands?
Considering the stance you are in what is your target?
What part of the elbow do you use?
Is the palm of the striking hand up or down?
Why?

I hope to hear from more than just TKD folks. Thanks,

 

[wab25]

Got a picture? (can you pull it from a karate kata or a different TKD form or... just tell us its from a different form...)

 

[jobo]

The question specifically relates to a poomsae but I not mention the form name in an attempt not to muddy the question.
Picture moving forward or perpendicular in a horse stance and performing an elbow strike in the direction you are moving. If you were standing static in a horse stance the strike would be to the side.
How do you use your hands?
Considering the stance you are in what is your target?
What part of the elbow do you use?
Is the palm of the striking hand up or down?
Why?

I hope to hear from more than just TKD folks. Thanks,

...? why are you moving in a horse stance.? that's just silly, its hard to think of a less efficient way of moving forward !

 

[Headhunter]

The question specifically relates to a poomsae but I not mention the form name in an attempt not to muddy the question.
Picture moving forward or perpendicular in a horse stance and performing an elbow strike in the direction you are moving. If you were standing static in a horse stance the strike would be to the side.
How do you use your hands?
Considering the stance you are in what is your target?
What part of the elbow do you use?
Is the palm of the striking hand up or down?
Why?

I hope to hear from more than just TKD folks. Thanks,

How do you move forward in a horse stance?...a horse stance as I've been taught it is a training stance to strengthen your legs and get weight distribution not as an actual combat movement. I honestly can't see a single way you can effectively move forwards in a horse stance. The body mechanics just don't work

 

[skribs]

How do you move forward in a horse stance?...a horse stance as I've been taught it is a training stance to strengthen your legs and get weight distribution not as an actual combat movement. I honestly can't see a single way you can effectively move forwards in a horse stance. The body mechanics just don't work

...? why are you moving in a horse stance.? that's just silly, its hard to think of a less efficient way of moving forward !

There's plenty of ways/reasons. One is to use it as a side stance. Useful before or after a side kick. It shows up in quite a few of our forms, all the way back to orange belt and all the way up to our 3rd and 4th degree black belt forms (that I've learned so far).

Another option is what we'll do in our self defense training sometimes, which is to move 45 degrees and face our opponent in horse stance.

Then there's sweeps, where you step behind your opponent's leg, make a horse stance in order to get a low center of gravity, and use your knee to execute the sweep.

The question specifically relates to a poomsae but I not mention the form name in an attempt not to muddy the question.
Picture moving forward or perpendicular in a horse stance and performing an elbow strike in the direction you are moving. If you were standing static in a horse stance the strike would be to the side.
How do you use your hands?
Considering the stance you are in what is your target?
What part of the elbow do you use?
Is the palm of the striking hand up or down?
Why?

I hope to hear from more than just TKD folks. Thanks,

I know exactly which form you speak, because this comes from another thread.

First off, keep in mind that Taekwondo forms often feature stylized versions of the moves, and the actual application may be somewhat different. (This is something I've really struggled with, especially with forms like Keumgang which feature a lot of cool looking blocks and stances, that I can't find any practical application for the moves as shown and described). So part of the reason it's done this way is to look good.

As to elbow strikes themselves, how I orient my hand will depend on my direction and my level.

1. An elbow uppercut or a downward elbow, my palm will face inward towards my ear. I will use the point of my elbow for this one.
2. If I'm doing a diagonal elbow (like you see in the UFC when someone is pressed against the wall and wants to score points on the side of someone's head) I would point my palm up. I will try and use the area above my elbow, or the point of my elbow.
3. For a cross elbow (elbow starting outside and going inside) my palm will always be down. I will try to use my forearm or the point of my elbow.
4. For a straight elbow to the side or rear (if to the front, I will turn so it will be a side elbow), it depends on the level. A lower elbow, such as to the stomach or groin, I will have my palm up. A higher elbow, to the chest or face, I will have my palm down. With both, I am trying to use the area above me elbow or the point of my elbow, depending on how far the target is.

As to my other hand, in each of the above situations:

1. My other hand is either in guard, doing another strike in the combination, or holding them in place
2. My other hand is probably trapped
3. My other hand may grab my wrist to pull the elbow through, hold onto them to pull them into the elbow, or be part of a guard or combination
4. My other hand may be pulling them, but more likely is going to push on my fist to push the elbow through

For the "unnamed form", if it is the move I'm thinking of, you are driving your elbow into their solarplexus, ribs, or neck. However, there are other applications of horse stance elbow. One is what I mentioned to Headhunter - put your stepping leg behind them, and then elbow to the chest (even better if you hit the solar plexus) to execute the sweep.

Now, there are other parts of the form I have bigger problems with. For example, the mid-level knife-hand block, followed by a grab and a punch. This was a recent change from a face-level block, grab, and punch, which would make sense (grab the back of their head and punch). I'm not really sure what I'm supposed to grab in that way at mid-height.

 

[jobo]

There's plenty of ways/reasons. One is to use it as a side stance. Useful before or after a side kick. It shows up in quite a few of our forms, all the way back to orange belt and all the way up to our 3rd and 4th degree black belt forms (that I've learned so far).

Another option is what we'll do in our self defense training sometimes, which is to move 45 degrees and face our opponent in horse stance.

Then there's sweeps, where you step behind your opponent's leg, make a horse stance in order to get a low center of gravity, and use your knee to execute the sweep.



I know exactly which form you speak, because this comes from another thread.

First off, keep in mind that Taekwondo forms often feature stylized versions of the moves, and the actual application may be somewhat different. (This is something I've really struggled with, especially with forms like Keumgang which feature a lot of cool looking blocks and stances, that I can't find any practical application for the moves as shown and described). So part of the reason it's done this way is to look good.

As to elbow strikes themselves, how I orient my hand will depend on my direction and my level.

1. An elbow uppercut or a downward elbow, my palm will face inward towards my ear. I will use the point of my elbow for this one.
2. If I'm doing a diagonal elbow (like you see in the UFC when someone is pressed against the wall and wants to score points on the side of someone's head) I would point my palm up. I will try and use the area above my elbow, or the point of my elbow.
3. For a cross elbow (elbow starting outside and going inside) my palm will always be down. I will try to use my forearm or the point of my elbow.
4. For a straight elbow to the side or rear (if to the front, I will turn so it will be a side elbow), it depends on the level. A lower elbow, such as to the stomach or groin, I will have my palm up. A higher elbow, to the chest or face, I will have my palm down. With both, I am trying to use the area above me elbow or the point of my elbow, depending on how far the target is.

As to my other hand, in each of the above situations:

1. My other hand is either in guard, doing another strike in the combination, or holding them in place
2. My other hand is probably trapped
3. My other hand may grab my wrist to pull the elbow through, hold onto them to pull them into the elbow, or be part of a guard or combination
4. My other hand may be pulling them, but more likely is going to push on my fist to push the elbow through

For the "unnamed form", if it is the move I'm thinking of, you are driving your elbow into their solarplexus, ribs, or neck. However, there are other applications of horse stance elbow. One is what I mentioned to Headhunter - put your stepping leg behind them, and then elbow to the chest (even better if you hit the solar plexus) to execute the sweep.

Now, there are other parts of the form I have bigger problems wi if those appear to be good reasons to attempt to move forward in a horse stance, at the very ,east it will considerably slow your movement if you intend to strike and makes it remarkably easy for your opponent to go backwards at twice your forward progress

There's plenty of ways/reasons. One is to use it as a side stance. Useful before or after a side kick. It shows up in quite a few of our forms, all the way back to orange belt and all the way up to our 3rd and 4th degree black belt forms (that I've learned so far).

Another option is what we'll do in our self defense training sometimes, which is to move 45 degrees and face our opponent in horse stance.

Then there's sweeps, where you step behind your opponent's leg, make a horse stance in order to get a low center of gravity, and use your knee to execute the sweep.



I know exactly which form you speak, because this comes from another thread.

First off, keep in mind that Taekwondo forms often feature stylized versions of the moves, and the actual application may be somewhat different. (This is something I've really struggled with, especially with forms like Keumgang which feature a lot of cool looking blocks and stances, that I can't find any practical application for the moves as shown and described). So part of the reason it's done this way is to look good.

As to elbow strikes themselves, how I orient my hand will depend on my direction and my level.

1. An elbow uppercut or a downward elbow, my palm will face inward towards my ear. I will use the point of my elbow for this one.
2. If I'm doing a diagonal elbow (like you see in the UFC when someone is pressed against the wall and wants to score points on the side of someone's head) I would point my palm up. I will try and use the area above my elbow, or the point of my elbow.
3. For a cross elbow (elbow starting outside and going inside) my palm will always be down. I will try to use my forearm or the point of my elbow.
4. For a straight elbow to the side or rear (if to the front, I will turn so it will be a side elbow), it depends on the level. A lower elbow, such as to the stomach or groin, I will have my palm up. A higher elbow, to the chest or face, I will have my palm down. With both, I am trying to use the area above me elbow or the point of my elbow, depending on how far the target is.

As to my other hand, in each of the above situations:

1. My other hand is either in guard, doing another strike in the combination, or holding them in place
2. My other hand is probably trapped
3. My other hand may grab my wrist to pull the elbow through, hold onto them to pull them into the elbow, or be part of a guard or combination
4. My other hand may be pulling them, but more likely is going to push on my fist to push the elbow through

For the "unnamed form", if it is the move I'm thinking of, you are driving your elbow into their solarplexus, ribs, or neck. However, there are other applications of horse stance elbow. One is what I mentioned to Headhunter - put your stepping leg behind them, and then elbow to the chest (even better if you hit the solar plexus) to execute the sweep.

Now, there are other parts of the form I have bigger problems with. For example, the mid-level knife-hand block, followed by a grab and a punch. This was a recent change from a face-level block, grab, and punch, which would make sense (grab the back of their head and punch). I'm not really sure what I'm supposed to grab in that way at mid-height.

, non of those appear to be good reasons to attempt to move forward in a horse stance, at the very ,east it will considerably slow your movement if you intend to strike and makes it remarkably easy for your opponent to go backwards at twice your forward progress, there may be reasons to drop your centre of gravity. but not when you want fast movement

 

[skribs]

, non of those appear to be good reasons to attempt to move forward in a horse stance, at the very ,east it will considerably slow your movement if you intend to strike and makes it remarkably easy for your opponent to go backwards at twice your forward progress, there may be reasons to drop your centre of gravity. but not when you want fast movement

It's very natural for me. A lot of times I'm behind or offset. Those times they are on my side, if they move behind me, I'm in a good spot to do a spinning elbow/hammerfist/back kick.

 

[wab25]

I wanted to see a picture or video of the technique in question... words don't do so well here. I think one of the confusing issues is the word "forward." Some think this stance is fast and good for moving "forward" while others think it is a slow and sub-optimal way of moving "forward." It all depends on what we mean by moving "forward."

If one is in a horse stance, and looking to the right, over his right shoulder, you could then define "forward" as the direction he is looking. In this definition, you can move "forward" very quickly as evidenced by any TKD competition, Shotokan Karate competition and even by watching people in MMA who have a Karate or TKD background.

If one is in a horse stance and defining "forward" as the direction his belly button is facing. Then moving "forward" will be very hard if at all possible. It certainly would not be on balance or very practical.

It could also be the case where one is in a different stance to start with, and is transitioning into the horse stance, in such a way that they get closer to their opponent... hence stepping "forward" into horse stance.

A picture is worth a thousand words here. (video even more)

 

[jobo]

It's very natural for me. A lot of times I'm behind or offset. Those times they are on my side, if they move behind me, I'm in a good spot to do a spinning elbow/hammerfist/back kick.

the question was MOVING FORWARD,! you seem to be addressing every possible scenario but that one.

bb if I'm behind you I will kick you so hard up your but that the spinning kick will never come. you've just made it the optimum height for a good toe end.

it's very dodgy position to be in and one you ha e clearly never tried in real life or you would know that

 

[skribs]

the question was MOVING FORWARD,! you seem to be addressing every possible scenario but that one.

bb if I'm behind you I will kick you so hard up your but that the spinning kick will never come. you've just made it the optimum height for a good toe end.

it's very dodgy position to be in and one you ha e clearly never tried in real life or you would know that

All of those scenarios are moving forward.

 

[skribs]

I wanted to see a picture or video of the technique in question... words don't do so well here. I think one of the confusing issues is the word "forward." Some think this stance is fast and good for moving "forward" while others think it is a slow and sub-optimal way of moving "forward." It all depends on what we mean by moving "forward."

If one is in a horse stance, and looking to the right, over his right shoulder, you could then define "forward" as the direction he is looking. In this definition, you can move "forward" very quickly as evidenced by any TKD competition, Shotokan Karate competition and even by watching people in MMA who have a Karate or TKD background.

If one is in a horse stance and defining "forward" as the direction his belly button is facing. Then moving "forward" will be very hard if at all possible. It certainly would not be on balance or very practical.

It could also be the case where one is in a different stance to start with, and is transitioning into the horse stance, in such a way that they get closer to their opponent... hence stepping "forward" into horse stance.

A picture is worth a thousand words here. (video even more)

I'll sully the thread by giving you the name of the form: it's Koryo Hyung.

 

[jobo]

All of those scenarios are moving forward.

how is doing a spinning back kick moving forward?

 

[skribs]

how is doing a spinning back kick moving forward?

If, after I move forward into a horse stance, my opponent moves behind me, I will back kick.

Edit to add: spinning back kick is also moving forward, if the kick is in the direction I face when I start the kick.

 

[jobo]

If, after I move forward into a horse stance, my opponent moves behind me, I will back kick.

Edit to add: spinning back kick is also moving forward, if the kick is in the direction I face when I start the kick.

a spinning back kick is forwards movement?

why would you let him move behind you, turning to keep facing is a lit wiser and very easy to do if you haven't gone in to a horse stance

 

[skribs]

a spinning back kick is forwards movement?

Let's say I'm facing the front of the dojang. I pivot and back kick towards the front of the dojang. That is a forward movement, from the perspective of where I started.

why would you let him move behind you,

Because if I had psychic control over my opponent, I wouldn't be in a fight to begin with.

turning to keep facing is a lit wiser and very easy to do if you haven't gone in to a horse stance

Turning to face him with a back kick is also easy. It's easier if I am in a side stance than a front stance.

 

[dvcochran]

a spinning back kick is forwards movement?

why would you let him move behind you, turning to keep facing is a lit wiser and very easy to do if you haven't gone in to a horse stance

You are very, very narrow minded jobo. A living example of contradiction.

 

[skribs]

You are very, very narrow minded jobo. A living example of contradiction.

I was thinking about this, and I think @jobo is thinking along the lines of what @wab25 was referring to. Jobo might be thinking you're in a horse stance facing the opponent, and then move forward. We're talking about moving forward and transitioning into a horse stance.

 

[dvcochran]

Got a picture? (can you pull it from a karate kata or a different TKD form or... just tell us its from a different form...)

I will work on that when I get back to TN.

 

[dvcochran]

I was thinking about this, and I think @jobo is thinking along the lines of what @wab25 was referring to. Jobo might be thinking you're in a horse stance facing the opponent, and then move forward. We're talking about moving forward and transitioning into a horse stance.

If we use the same Kicho form set, think of Kicho Hyung Sam Bu. Three horse stance punches up and down the middle line. You progressively move forward through the form, from horse stance to horse stance.
I can visualize what they are thinking; that the chest is always the front. I feel this is incorrect. If I am in a horse stance the punching fist dictates where the front is as well as direction of travel.
I think part of it is simply training in different styles. Some styles may never practice walking through a horse stance so never learn that the body is turned into the direction of desired travel.

 

[jobo]

I was thinking about this, and I think @jobo is thinking along the lines of what @wab25 was referring to. Jobo might be thinking you're in a horse stance facing the opponent, and then move forward. We're talking about moving forward and transitioning into a horse stance.

Forward us the direction your toes are facing to , it being walking move, the orientation of the rest of your body is if no concern
.he definitely said moving IN a horse stance