Elbow/Pullback Position in AK?

[CombatWombat51]

Simple question: in American Kenpo, do the practitioners use some kind of "elbow position" or "pullback position", or something similar? If I'm not clear, I mean where one's fists are on either side of their ribs, palms up. Many styles use this while working out of a horse stance, and generally as a place to put their hands when not punching, blocking, or anything.

If AK does use that, when is it used? Soley out of a horse for training purposes? In forms/katas/pinians? As a recoil position during the defense techniques (Alternating Maces, Squeeze the Peaches, etc)?

Thanks in advnace, and I hope I was clear enough despite not knowing your specific terms

 

[rmcrobertson]

All of the above, though it'd probably be referred to as a, "chambered," position. Why do you ask?

 

[CombatWombat51]

Chambered! Thanks, I knew there was another common term I was forgetting.

As for why, well... at the risk of people harassing me for having the gall to thinking of changing a fundamental aspect of kenpo (as well as other arts), here's what I was thinking

1) Forms/katas serve a purpose, and that purpose is to practice techniques in a structured way. A way that isn't as boring as punching in a static stance over and over.

2) We don't fight like we do in forms. We don't put our hands into a chambered position after striking, we go back on guard. Or even more likely in kenpo, we flow from there into another strike.

Wouldn't it be more of a benefit to eliminate chambering all together, and just return our hands to the guard position? Much better for muscle memory. This idea applies to some stances, as well.

BTW, I don't mean for this idea to only apply to only AK, but I noticed that the majority of posters that practice kenpo, practice AK.

So, any thoughts on that? Is there some benefit to chambering that I don't see?

 

[Rainman]

elbow pull back... why eliminate a technique? Chambered= pull the slide back and fire... is a transitional position which becomes a method if you so choose to continue the movement.

 

[Kenpomachine]

So, any thoughts on that? Is there some benefit to chambering that I don't see?

Yes, it teaches you the obscure elbow strike

 

[Doc]

Yes, it teaches you the obscure elbow strike

Sorry, but I'm afraid that is incorrect. Mr. Parker's definition of "obscure" states the term is applied whenever the weapon is "within your Peripheral Vision but outside of your Line Of Sight."

The backwards, often dscribed as "chambered position" of the hand at the hip does not meet that guideline, thusly the term "obscure" cannot attach to execution from that position in American Kenpo as I understand it.

 

[Doc]

... We don't fight like we do in forms. We don't put our hands into a chambered position after striking, we go back on guard. Or even more likely in kenpo, we flow from there into another strike.

There are aspects of some forms where we do exactly that, whereas others are training tools, and still others contain indexes of information.

Wouldn't it be more of a benefit to eliminate chambering all together, and just return our hands to the guard position? Much better for muscle memory. This idea applies to some stances, as well.

Sorry sir but you are completely wrong here.

BTW, I don't mean for this idea to only apply to only AK, but I noticed that the majority of posters that practice kenpo, practice AK.
So, any thoughts on that? Is there some benefit to chambering that I don't see?

I caution those who are in such a hurry to throw things out they don't understand. I suggest that one accumulate significant knowledge of the subject matter before making rash judgements as to what is, and what is not valid. Clearly it was put there, and is represented in most martial arts for a reason. More than likely if you give it consideration, all of these different disciplines couldn't be completely wrong.

From my understanding, and predicated on the position of the hand itself, the position can be either a weapon, or facilitate the proper application of a weapon.

 

[Kenpomachine]

Sorry, but I'm afraid that is incorrect. Mr. Parker's definition of "obscure" states the term is applied whenever the weapon is "within your Peripheral Vision but outside of your Line Of Sight."

Thanks for the clarification, Doc. The part about peripheral Vision never made it into my head.

You'll never go to bed without learning something new...

 

[CombatWombat51]

Sorry sir but you are completely wrong here.

I caution those who are in such a hurry to throw things out they don't understand. I suggest that one accumulate significant knowledge of the subject matter before making rash judgements as to what is, and what is not valid. Clearly it was put there, and is represented in most martial arts for a reason. More than likely if you give it consideration, all of these different disciplines couldn't be completely wrong.

Who said I was in a hurry or rash? After years of training (10, to be exact) in styles that use and don't use the chambered position, I've began to wonder. I think a decade is reasonable amount of time to at least question an aspect of an art that could be improved.

And I never said all of any discipline was "completely wrong". Simple, friendly curiousity here

From my understanding, and predicated on the position of the hand itself, the position can be either a weapon, or facilitate the proper application of a weapon.

By "weapon", do you mean a strike? I won't retort to that point until I'm sure of what you mean.


Thanks for everyones' feedback though. Since I'm now far away from the lands of civilization, it's nice to find a place where I can pick the brains of fellow MAists.

 

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

I like the chambered position for transitional purposes, as well as for forms. As a Chiropractor, I like it because it is one of the few positions in the martial arts that recruits the fibers of the lower trapezius during scapular retraction. Most slumped shoulder postures leading to back and neck pain correlates with weak lower division trapezium. Most of MA upper extremity motion & training takes place in positions that strengthen anterior, superior, and lateral shoulder & back musculature. I practice chambered position in forms for the conditioning and gleno-humeral range of motion aspect. Have to admit; I do practice a "high-chamber" position in sparring, to slip one over the top or mislead my opponent about my intent.

I think your idea of reducing it's presence for combat training is worth exploring; if nobody asks questions, and irreverently breaks from the status quo, how are we to evolve and develop? Try it for awhile, see what happens, and let the results of your own experience guide you. Doc is learned and experienced, and can speak for himself based on his acquired body of knowledge, but his body is not your body, and...for yourself...you may be on to something.

Namaste!

Dr. Dave

 

[Touch Of Death]

Chambered! Thanks, I knew there was another common term I was forgetting.

As for why, well... at the risk of people harassing me for having the gall to thinking of changing a fundamental aspect of kenpo (as well as other arts), here's what I was thinking

1) Forms/katas serve a purpose, and that purpose is to practice techniques in a structured way. A way that isn't as boring as punching in a static stance over and over.

2) We don't fight like we do in forms. We don't put our hands into a chambered position after striking, we go back on guard. Or even more likely in kenpo, we flow from there into another strike.

Wouldn't it be more of a benefit to eliminate chambering all together, and just return our hands to the guard position? Much better for muscle memory. This idea applies to some stances, as well.

BTW, I don't mean for this idea to only apply to only AK, but I noticed that the majority of posters that practice kenpo, practice AK.

So, any thoughts on that? Is there some benefit to chambering that I don't see?

I'll tell you why you don't eliminate the "chambered position". You will find that when you are walking around your hands hang at your sides. Chambering is the very first point of reference you can acheive from that particular and very common position. In short it is faster to thrust when tasked to move from that position. All kinds of power can be generated from that position; so, why not thrust off the hip?
Sean

 

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

For the sake of being provocative: A side note about the mechanics of powerlifting as it may (note, I say may) impact starting position for a punch. Bench Press powerlifters have a vested interest in pressing the fist away from the body anteriorly in it's most power-producing relative position. They don't start from the hip, nor do they "corkscrew" the wrist to "create torque" (as I've heard so many karate-ka say). Most people, untrained in lifting, can move more weight, more times, in a decline press machine, then in a straight chest-press or incline press position, due to the recruiting of the lats and other back muscles into the strike.

Ergo, a more powerful strike ought to be launched from an elevated height, to a lower height. Not from the hip, up, as in most MA training (a weaker moment arm, cante-levered at the shoulder and powered to elevation by the anterior delt, and to elbow extension by triceps > chest or back). Just some fodder for thought.

Don't hate me cuz I'm homely.

Dr. Dave

 

[Touch Of Death]

For the sake of being provocative: A side note about the mechanics of powerlifting as it may (note, I say may) impact starting position for a punch. Bench Press powerlifters have a vested interest in pressing the fist away from the body anteriorly in it's most power-producing relative position. They don't start from the hip, nor do they "corkscrew" the wrist to "create torque" (as I've heard so many karate-ka say). Most people, untrained in lifting, can move more weight, more times, in a decline press machine, then in a straight chest-press or incline press position, due to the recruiting of the lats and other back muscles into the strike.

Ergo, a more powerful strike ought to be launched from an elevated height, to a lower height. Not from the hip, up, as in most MA training (a weaker moment arm, cante-levered at the shoulder and powered to elevation by the anterior delt, and to elbow extension by triceps > chest or back). Just some fodder for thought.

Don't hate me cuz I'm homely.

Dr. Dave

I'm not going to let you tell me upper cuts don't have power. Just as you lift with your legs not your back, the power you can generate from the ground up by using your legs, is more than adequate enough to generate a knock out, or a take-down for that matter. I will conceed that the hand on the hip is not the best place to have you hand in a fight; however, it is important to know that it is a starting point of reference for thrust, and by simply anchoring your elbow when you punch you will find that downward motion in your thrust you were just saying wasn't there. However and foremost, moving off the hip is the absolute fastest motion you can make when you find your hands in the vicinity of your hips. And its important to know how to fight from more than one set position; so, proclaiming the hammer position the best, should not be a reason to throw out usefull tools of motion.
Sean

 

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

I'm not going to let you tell me upper cuts don't have power. Just as you lift with your legs not your back, the power you can generate from the ground up by using your legs, is more than adequate enough to generate a knock out, or a take-down for that matter. I will conceed that the hand on the hip is not the best place to have you hand in a fight; however, it is important to know that it is a starting point of reference for thrust, and by simply anchoring your elbow when you punch you will find that downward motion in your thrust you were just saying wasn't there. However and foremost, moving off the hip is the absolute fastest motion you can make when you find your hands in the vicinity of your hips. And its important to know how to fight from more than one set position; so, proclaiming the hammer position the best, should not be a reason to throw out usefull tools of motion.
Sean

Having trained with some crusty old boxers, I would never say uppercuts don't have power...by curling the palm up and bending the elbow, you recruit brachialis, biceps brachii, coraco-brachialis, anterior delt, and even (since the humerus i s externally rotated) pectoralis minor and major (as well as some of the rotator cuff muscles). And, if you target low and time the pinning of the elbow to your side with the impact of the blow and the forward thrusting of the hips, you also recruit the legs, abdominals, and rotators of the spine. All good biomechanics.

 

[pete]

They (powerlifters) don't start from the hip, nor do they "corkscrew" the wrist to "create torque" (as I've heard so many karate-ka say).

the corkscrew is not to create torque from the upper body, but to draw whole body power by turning the wrist as you turn the rear ankle and settle into a forward bow... the corkscrew from a horse stance is useless and a corkscrew to a target above one's own shoulder height is anatomically incorrect. i guess we've both heard many karate-ka say things!

 

[rmcrobertson]

Uhm, I agree with Doc. Most of these, "improvements," actually work to remove some of the range of possibilities--some of the vocabulary, if you prefer--from kenpo.

I'd refer posters who believe that there is no purpose in training a, "corkscrew," punch from a horse stance to Ed Parker and Tom Gow, "Ed Parker's Kenpo Karate, Vol. 1: The Basics," pages 15-16: "The basic corkscrew punch starts in a horse stance with the hands cocked at the waist...."

When we cut the, "unnecessary," out prematurely, we are--among other considerations!--cutting out exactly the material that allowed us to learn.

Personally, I think a lot of these "improvements," come out of some unconscious desire to cut students short, to put a good solid roadblock in their progress.

 

[Doc]

the corkscrew is not to create torque from the upper body, but to draw whole body power by turning the wrist as you turn the rear ankle and settle into a forward bow... the corkscrew from a horse stance is useless and a corkscrew to a target above one's own shoulder height is anatomically incorrect. i guess we've both heard many karate-ka say things!

There is a lot to be commented on this thread, but I think I'll start with my ole buddy "Pete" while I scramble for more time to answer here at work.

Based on your statement Pete, the impression is given that the so-called corkscrew is useless without the "..turn (of) the rear ankle and settle in a forward bow..." I suggest you consider this physical movement as an independent entity to challenge or confirm its efficacy.

Next you say, "...the corkscrew from a horse stance is useless ..." I'm curious as to how you arrive at that conclusion. Follwed by, "...a corkscrew to a target above one's own shoulder height height is anatomically incorrect." Interesting assessment and perspective that is actually right and wrong depending upon assumptions about what a "corkscrew" punch actually is. Help me out Pete, and explain.

 

[Michael Billings]

I assume this was a serious question, and not intended just to stir and aggravate.

Conceptually the "chambering" teaches us about Reverse and Opposite motion, it also introduces the idea of Oppossing Forces and the Double Factor.

[font=&quot]Structurally i[/font]t teaches us the proper position for the elbow, when punching or jabbing (not necessarily from a chambered postition - which is seldom used except in Forms or Sets). It also teaches us about range and the proper rotation of the arm both extending, for the punch, and or retracting. In the retraction, or reverse of the upward block for example, you find an inward vertical forarm strike, a downward elbow strike, and a back elbow strike. I can actually insert a few more if I try. But fundamentally this is to teach correct motion and have the opportunity to practice full range of motion to engage the proper muscle groups sequentially, in order to maximize the strike.

This is not addressing the separate strikes available in the upward block itself (horizontal uppercut [stomach, ribs, kidney, etc.], continuing the motion to the traditional uppercut to the chin, then the upward forearm strike found in Long Form #2, etc.

Any chambering is training proper Motion, not "fighting" per say, but the Motion is then integrated into techniques and freestyle in a logical, consistant manner, that is part of the SYSTEM of learning Kenpo correctly.

Just my 2 cents worth of course ... and why I practice basics from horse stances, and alternately shadow box, and do bag work to bring the basics into the real world.

-Michael

 

[JD_Nelson]

From my limited time in Kenpo, I agree with Mr. Billings.

For me, the chambered position is a rear elbow. It may not be practical to constantly chamber like this in an actual street fight, but it teaches us our very first strike to the rear attacker.

I guess I agree with Mr. Robertson as well. If you eliminate this, then the student has to learn another way to deal with an attacker from the rear that may not be as simple.

Salute,

JD

 

[Rainman]

The so called chambered position is actually sophisticated basic. Position should have been the givaway. To me it is a double arm break as in snakes of wisdom and marriage of the rams and always a transitional movement as is the rest of the system unless you strike a pose.