How to defeat a Wrestler

GBlues

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Hey GBlues...Now your talking...In a second we have to return back to how to defeat a grappler with out going to the ground...But you are making some good points...



The main thing about ground fighting is you just have to do...its exactly like Chi Sau only not standing up

Wing Chun has over 70 Chin Na techniques which includes arm locks and throws.

But not all Wing Chun lineages really go into detail...Now we did because our Sifu was a fighter. We didn't go in depth on ground fighting like MMA schools. But we got some minor practice among one another. Sifu would speak of turning off force...Parrying strikes to face....

As for Japanese terminology...I dont remember hardly any terminology...But my Aikido instructure had us do mostly take down drills the entire class after we practice stretching, Rolls and Throwing.

Some of the drills are very applicable. But you mention one of my old judo take downs...Where the guy grabs you by your shirt and you grab his shirt or arm and you can flip him over your back...Another move was you roll backwards kick you foot in his chest an when you get flat on your back kick him in the air over you...Nasty technique...Those were my favorites...Some of Aikido Techniques take too long an are too Slow so I try to miminize down to what works the majority of the time...


But you mention someone skilled like Gracie...I don't know too many people who can honestly say they are skilled enough to beat Gracie in Jiujitsu. Needless to say not to many strikers think they can beat Mike Tyson in striking...Even with kicks...

But as for the weapons of Wing Chun Man...he is never limited...

Oh I hear all the time Wing Chun doesn't kick above the Stomach or Waist...Wing Chun doesn't usually kick above the Waist...But just because it doesn't usually. What would happen if the wing chun man has he hands behind his back...He would probably kick your face off if he could. Ha Ha...My Sihing says all the time he doesn't fight with high kicks...But that doesn't mean he doesn't practice them...We practice defense drills with one another. My Sihing is very strecth out an kicks very high...Possibly over my head if he wants to. But in a fight usually he is going aim below your hips...Thats to prevent you from grabbing his feet with your hands. To reach his feet you have to bend down. lol...So I tell people all the time Wing Chun has principals but just because it has principals in fighting you can bend the rules...Like Wing Chun is mostly linear. But if you look at Bil Gee form you will see right and left hooks. Also Wing Chun has an upper cut. Some Wing Chun people actually are lazy...They practice everything...So some Wing Chun people can not kick high...can not throw circle attacks.Can not ground fight. Some Wing Chun people have terrible flexibility. An when they get fifty they will understand then why their body is in such bad shape.

People think Wing Chun fighters don't have stamina...But whats up with jumping rope and running...Wing Chun is not a lazy man's art as it is becoming in states...Its for fighters. I have heard one guy says he doesn't even practice kicks...He has videos showing his wing chun...but he is very lazy...he doesnt practice kicks...he doesnt hit the wall bag or punching bag with force...He doesn't work to increase his strength and punching power Etc etc...Now of course he could just be talking an actually lying to me because he doesn't want me know he is not that lazy...or he is being truthful...There is so much more to WC than practicing Forms,two man Drills and Chi Sau all day. Most people think thats all there is...No thats just the beginning...

But also did you know the Chain punch can be altered to be many different types of punching? Not just all straight chain punches...you can alternate strikes. Like a Crane does...
But the tactics you meantion for the shoot sound like a pretty good one...

I have suggestion for you...

Get a buddy...Buy some head gear with a face shield or cage.

Practice light contact sparring an trying to shoot in on him after every three strikes you throw...He is to use a kick,knee, elbow or upper cut stop you. Now this way you get used to seeing how is body structure changes...feel the change and possibly block or parry the blow or evade the kick. This will also help you with your timing. Because he knows your going to shoot. But you time it just right to where his attack is void...Now if he tries to kick you or knee you practice deflecting the kick or moving it out the way as you shoot for the legs...move the knee on through and shoot for the side of the hips and slam him down!

This could be a great skill builder...It allows you to work on shooting...It allows your friend to work on striking so you can't shoot.

Tell me what you think?
was talking about defeating a grappler without going to the ground. I was thinking of everything standing up. LOL! Guess I wasn't descriptive enough sorry.
The technique that your describing about putting your foot in the guys stomach, and rolling back, to throw him over you...I have heard this called a 'monkey flip'
I was just using Gracie as an example of that kick that he used to use in the UFC back in the day. I wouldn't go to the ground with someone like that. Or try and fight Mike Tyson. I'd just shoot the guy and run! LOL!
No, I did not know that about Wing Chun. Thanks for the information on that. I appreciate it.
I'm going to have to try that drill. I think it would be fun. I really want to try taking the guy down from that front knee kick, though. I think that it would really put a crimp in the grapplers game. At least for Street Self-Defense. Course you may never meet a guy that fights like a Gracie, but still be a cool move to get good at. I think. If it can be done. Anyways, back to how to defeat a grappler while standing.
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Yoshiyahu

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Okay how do you defeat grappler standing up..continue...

An the below comments about Mike Tyson and Royce Gracie made me laugh...lol


I was talking about defeating a grappler without going to the ground. I was thinking of everything standing up. LOL! Guess I wasn't descriptive enough sorry.

The technique that your describing about putting your foot in the guys stomach, and rolling back, to throw him over you...I have heard this called a 'monkey flip'

I was just using Gracie as an example of that kick that he used to use in the UFC back in the day. I wouldn't go to the ground with someone like that. Or try and fight Mike Tyson. I'd just shoot the guy and run! LOL!
No, I did not know that about Wing Chun. Thanks for the information on that. I appreciate it.

I'm going to have to try that drill. I think it would be fun. I really want to try taking the guy down from that front knee kick, though. I think that it would really put a crimp in the grapplers game. At least for Street Self-Defense. Course you may never meet a guy that fights like a Gracie, but still be a cool move to get good at. I think. If it can be done. Anyways, back to how to defeat a grappler while standing.
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mook jong man

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We used to practice Chi Sau , with one person attempting to tackle at random and it was found on the first few times people usually got taken to the ground.

But after that they became quite adept at picking up the body cues and most times were able to avoid the tackle.

I believe more Wing Chun schools should train like this , we are already training at close range so why not just include shoots and tackles as part of the drill.

Surely if you can develop the reflex to stop them from Chi Sau range would this not enhance your ability to stop them from longer ranges .
 
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Yoshiyahu

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Excellent idea...Mook Jong...I practice some similiar with friend as well...Great strategy.



We used to practice Chi Sau , with one person attempting to tackle at random and it was found on the first few times people usually got taken to the ground.

But after that they became quite adept at picking up the body cues and most times were able to avoid the tackle.

I believe more Wing Chun schools should train like this , we are already training at close range so why not just include shoots and tackles as part of the drill.

Surely if you can develop the reflex to stop them from Chi Sau range would this not enhance your ability to stop them from longer ranges .
 

Hagakure

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I guess we exhausted this topic...No more comments eh?

Not quite amigo. ;)

My take is that utilising a combination of WC techniques, including increased awareness of a grapplers shoot, looking for body signs/positions that will alert you to what he/she will do next is key. Combine that with the chi sao drills and it's a "start".

I also believe that training with grapplers is pretty important too. In my view, and I've seen it borne out in the UFC as a test bed, that the longer you can frustrate a grapplers attempts to take you to the ground, the more frustrated they will become, when they will likely fall back onto their secondary strength, i.e striking, simply because they can't take you to the ground. It's safe to say it's a good idea to practice grappling techniques, and something I intend to add to my repetoire.

So, in conclusion, practice looking for signs, train against grapplers and their techniques, as someone previously mentioned to get used to the speed that these guys can move, utilise WC techniques/applications such as chi sao. You don't necessarily need to train a new art if you don't want to, but I certainly think you need to train with grapplers at some point if you're serious about defeating them.

I watched Matt Hughes trying to repeatedly take down GSP a while back, and every time was resisted and avoided, and then bludgeoned with strikes. It is possible, but you've got to be able to know when the shoot is coming, ways to get out of it, stay on the ground, then hit hardest, fastest and first to put them down. Would be my take on it.
 
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Yoshiyahu

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I love your post...This is so true, I plan to engage some grapplers when the snow is gone and it warms up. This is very true one needs to train spar or fight wrestlers to know what to expect.

Not quite amigo. ;)

My take is that utilising a combination of WC techniques, including increased awareness of a grapplers shoot, looking for body signs/positions that will alert you to what he/she will do next is key. Combine that with the chi sao drills and it's a "start".

I also believe that training with grapplers is pretty important too. In my view, and I've seen it borne out in the UFC as a test bed, that the longer you can frustrate a grapplers attempts to take you to the ground, the more frustrated they will become, when they will likely fall back onto their secondary strength, i.e striking, simply because they can't take you to the ground. It's safe to say it's a good idea to practice grappling techniques, and something I intend to add to my repetoire.

So, in conclusion, practice looking for signs, train against grapplers and their techniques, as someone previously mentioned to get used to the speed that these guys can move, utilise WC techniques/applications such as chi sao. You don't necessarily need to train a new art if you don't want to, but I certainly think you need to train with grapplers at some point if you're serious about defeating them.

I watched Matt Hughes trying to repeatedly take down GSP a while back, and every time was resisted and avoided, and then bludgeoned with strikes. It is possible, but you've got to be able to know when the shoot is coming, ways to get out of it, stay on the ground, then hit hardest, fastest and first to put them down. Would be my take on it.
 

Hagakure

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I love your post...This is so true, I plan to engage some grapplers when the snow is gone and it warms up. This is very true one needs to train spar or fight wrestlers to know what to expect.

Totally, wouldn't fancy rolling around the ground when it's covered in snow. Brrrrr!! ;)
 

KamonGuy2

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This goes back to the format of the fight. Very similar to the BJJ argument raging in another thread

If its two people at either side of a ring, then wing chun will have an advantage (kicks, striking, seeing your opponent coming, etc)

If it is in a bar or street and you are pounced on a chunner will struggle.

Yet it does come down to the skills of each practitioner rather than the arts themselves

My bro (who is a chunner) started BJJ late last year in the US. The lessons were full of big wrestlers. When they tried to grab hold of him, they found it difficult because he wasnt tense/using strength

Most wrestlers arent too bothered about taking you down to the ground (ie they can fight stand up), buit we are currently working on a lot of clinchwork at Kamon utilizing fak saos and huen saos to strip structure with minimal energy

As I have always said, it is wise to know some kind of ground/clinch art to help compliment your wing chun

If anyone in London is interested in that kind of stuff, try and get down to the Kamon Croydon class on Mondays (you are welcome to sit and watch) and Master Chan will give a brief demo of clinchwork in wing chun

He is a very nice guy and as long as you dont p*ss him off, you can pretty much ask him anything

One bit of advice though dont lie about where youre from. He doesnt care if youre from another school so long as youre open about it. In fact it usually helps his demos as it is easier to explain things if you know wing chun already!
 
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Yoshiyahu

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No what I meant is during winter seasons I hybernate...i dont come out as much. I am sure the mma fighting is done indoors. lol...but i totally agree with you. Most of snow is melted but its like 17 degress outside. I am in the house covered in four blankets with the heat on 80 degrees. I hate cold....


Totally, wouldn't fancy rolling around the ground when it's covered in snow. Brrrrr!! ;)
 

dungeonworks

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No what I meant is during winter seasons I hybernate...i dont come out as much. I am sure the mma fighting is done indoors. lol...but i totally agree with you. Most of snow is melted but its like 17 degress outside. I am in the house covered in four blankets with the heat on 80 degrees. I hate cold....

You'd hate Michigan then....17 degrees is spring jacket weather! Heck, I get excited when the mercury rises above 15 F!!!!
 

mook jong man

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What the hell are you people whinging about , in some parts of Sydney this weekend its going to be 47 C .

I went out in the backyard to do a kettle bell workout the other day and between the heat and all the smoke from the bush fires that are going on I nearly passed out .

Man I reckon I would love that cold weather , I'd go outside and make myself a Mook Jong out of the snow , sort of like a Wing Chun snowman .
 

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Gblues, you'r pop's has it right. He's answered that question for you in the same or similar manner I would have.

As for getting "overemotional" I hope you guys had fun poking at Si-Je, lol!
But, realize taking BJJ doesn't make your "kempo" better, it just is another art you take other than kempo. Now, Tai Chi could make your wing chun better as an example.
But the two are so different they do conflict, that's what I've been trying to say.(ex. kempo and BJJ)
Aiki Ju-Jitsu is has a strong striking technique to it too, that might be more akin to kempo, and they do more technique standing. Just an example.

I've got lots of posts on here about how to defeate a wrestler with pure WC/WT which was the origional post. The BJJ got added by other folks that were missing the point of the post. That believe that WC/WT won't work against a wrestler or grappler. I so strongly disagree, I'm seriously re-considering my origional withdrawl from competition.

Your Pop's not right in the head. He can be taken down at will by any wrestler worth his salt. The bulldog/steer throw that many propose will not work as wrestlers who know what thier doing keep their elbows close to their body. Also, wrestlers who have you on the ground will put you in a choke and your dead.
 
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Yoshiyahu

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My Friend lets not get this Wrestler vs strikers stuff started again. Its pointless..


Your Pop's not right in the head. He can be taken down at will by any wrestler worth his salt. The bulldog/steer throw that many propose will not work as wrestlers who know what thier doing keep their elbows close to their body. Also, wrestlers who have you on the ground will put you in a choke and your dead.
 
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