How effective is the MT knee strike?

[drop bear]

You use both hands to control my head. You can't punch/elbow me at that time. You can only knee strike at me. But I have 2 free hands to catch your leg. The moment I can catch your leg, I can sweep/hook your rooting leg, the striking game will be over, the grappling game will start.

Who has advantage at that moment?

When you have double collar tie on me, I can also use my right knee strike at your right inside upper leg. My right leg can then inner hook your left standing leg and take you down.

It's an elbow. They literally are set up from hand grabs. That is how they work.

 

[drop bear]

I will argue that knowing what details you want to keep them from applying and drilling keeping them from applying are related, but separate skills.

I teach them as games. So here you want double plum and broken posture. They want a neutral clinch and good posture. Then he wants his own double plumbs.

You are both fighting to death to preserve that. And that is the game. The person who wins that kind of wins the position and has an easier time. Which in fighting is what you always want.

You having it easier and them having it harder.

The elbows and knees theoretically are designed to to achieve that positional advantage. So that your knees and elbows become more effective.

Diving for the legs is not really part of that. And is generally where you have lost and are trying something desperate.

 

[drop bear]

How do you get that head to a shoulder when they are controlling it with that double collar tie, though?

You could do that sweep off a Thai clinch.

 

[jks9199]

How would anyone but the two of them know the answer to that?

Off the top of my head, I can think of a few reasons: they didn't know it, didn't think of it, didn't react in time, were busy trying something else, felt like they could take those hits...

Or, maybe, it's hard to trap/catch and unbalance, when someone's already pulling you down? Looking at that clip alone, you can see that both are pulling each other into the knees... which is a really nice way to deliver a knee, with some extra oomph...

 

[skribs]

Or, maybe, it's hard to trap/catch and unbalance, when someone's already pulling you down? Looking at that clip alone, you can see that both are pulling each other into the knees... which is a really nice way to deliver a knee, with some extra oomph...

My main point was that there are many reasons why you get caught with a technique.

While there is merit in going over failures to defend a technique and how it could have been better, I don't think it makes much sense to look at every successful strike and say, "There's a counter. Why didn't so-and-so do the counter?"

 

[Gerry Seymour]

You could do that sweep off a Thai clinch.

Does that work when they've got a double collar tie? I've never had a chance to play in clinch with someone who has experience with it.

 

[drop bear]

Does that work when they've got a double collar tie? I've never had a chance to play in clinch with someone who has experience with it.

Not very well.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

How do you get that head to a shoulder when they are controlling it with that double collar tie, though?

This is what I have addressed in an early post. When your opponent tries to bend his arm and control your neck, you will help him to bend his arm more than he wants to. This way, you can take over the control.

When your opponent has both arms on your neck, you can pin both of his arms on your chest. At that moment, you are controlling him. He is not controlling you.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

After you have controlled your opponent's arm on your chest, you can do a lot of things.

In this picture, his opponent's right arm has no threaten to him.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

After you have controlled your opponent's arm on your chest, you can do a lot of things.

In this picture, his opponent's right arm has no threaten to him.

View attachment 28193

The trick is getting that control, and then keeping it. This seems like a more specific version of an underhook fight, and most grapplers will know how to try to switch to where they have the underhook. It's a useful drill trying to maintain it.

 

[Unkogami]

It depends on who is doing it. Can be devastating or practically a caress. This is the case with all techniques.

A straight leg is a broken leg or a taken leg.

 

[JowGaWolf]

You could do that sweep off a Thai clinch.

Take a lower stance and that clinch won't exist.

A straight leg is a broken leg or a taken leg.

This is how I think as well. Muay Boran doesn't stand as tall as Muay Thai . Muay Thai gets away with it because it's a sport. And the rules don't allow certain strikes or take downs that would take advantage of that straight leg.

 

[jayoliver00]

You have just assumed that you are better than your opponent. If that's the case, no matter what your opponent may do, he will always lose.

No, because I've said that all of the counters that you've posted (the ones that I paid attention to) were "legit"; so I'm agreeing with you that they can work....esp. when most of them are trained in MT to begin with.

I'm just saying that it's not that easy as you think to take a knee to the ribs & then catch it + dump them. Factor in the fact that most other TMA styles rarely train the clinch well enough nor throws full knees often, then it gets way worse; despite knowing this simple counter.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

most other TMA styles rarely train the clinch well enough nor throws full knees often, then it gets way worse; despite knowing this simple counter.

Agree that general TMA training and wrestling training are different. Also, if one doesn't train MT clinch and knee strike, he may not train how to deal with it.

So, knowing how to do it is not enough, one has to train it.

 

[jayoliver00]

Take a lower stance and that clinch won't exist.

This is how I think as well. Muay Boran doesn't stand as tall as Muay Thai . Muay Thai gets away with it because it's a sport. And the rules don't allow certain strikes or take downs that would take advantage of that straight leg.

The stance is about the same in MB (although I could be wrong/not an expert on MB). This video, they are specifically clinch sparring. In the MT clinch, you do not want to lower your head as you will be helping your OPP to full plum you -> knees to the face. This is the same in a MB fight. You want to posture up & stiffen your neck.

Most of those illegal throws that you're talking about in MT, are easy & MTs who trains the legal way, can easily do those illegal ones. MT rules actually makes it more difficult to throw/sweep b/c they want to see knees & elbows thrown in the clinch rather than an immediate throw.

I've sparred w/a lot of different TMA's in open sparring groups in the last 15 years; even joined KF schools to learn & spar. I usually win when sparring them but when I do lose, I'd clinch & they rarely have an answer for my MT clinch work; I usually hurt their necks (but not full power knee them, just light). If it goes to the ground, then it gets worse as I train full MMA w/BJJ + wrestling. Nowadays, more trains BJJ, so it's better. I did get submitted by a Wushu instructor in a Wushu school, b/c he also trained BJJ, had MMA gloves on & I had boxing gloves. That guy later joined my friend's MMA gym.

 

[drop bear]

Take a lower stance and that clinch won't exist.

This is how I think as well. Muay Boran doesn't stand as tall as Muay Thai . Muay Thai gets away with it because it's a sport. And the rules don't allow certain strikes or take downs that would take advantage of that straight leg.

You have ti stand tall to avoid getting kneed.

 

[JowGaWolf]

In the MT clinch, you do not want to lower your head as you will be helping your OPP to full plum you -> knees to the face.

You have to be at a lower stance before the clinch. It doesn't have to be super low. It just hast to be lower than what's required for the clinch. I'm glad I found this video. It sums it up nicely.

Modern Muay Thai (1:20)
Ancient Stance Muay Boran (2:35)

If you stand in a tall stance and I stand in a low stance, Your punches cannot reach me, but my punches can reach you. You have to test this in a static position because it's the easiest way to understand the mechanics of it. The picture below is an example. If the center of the circle is your shoulder then then circle itself is the rotation of the the arm. This picture is a little in accurate but it will do. The fist will only touch the sides of the square at one point (it doesn't look like it here because the circle and square overlap instead of touching the edges of each other. Each point of contact is at 90°. Anything less than that will start to fall short. If I lower my stance I will still be able to reach you so long as I punch straight and not at an angle. I may not be able to hit your face but I can hit your stomach. That's the basic concept. However in application, nothing is static, so what it does in application is that it allows me to out of the way faster using a shorter distance. Clinches require that your opponent stands at a certain height in relation to you. If I'm below that height then you won't be able to initiate that clinch.

In terms of being in a clinch, I wouldn't lower myself unless I was up close to the person applying the clinch. I would only do that to slip under an armpit if the clinch loosens up. I don't want to move back because then my opponent can basically use by body to support his structure (Like leaning on a hand rail to walk). If I move back then my structure will be worse as I do not have anyone to lean on. If I close the gap and move forward then I can cut down on the power of the knee strikes and it prevents my opponent from being able to use my structure to support himself. While I'm closing the gap, I need to be trying to either break his structure or the structure of the clinch. I have to give his body 2 things to deal with. He brain will only think 1 thing. Either strike or try to maintain the clinch. He cannot do both without controlling the clinch. Either break the structure of the clinch or the structure of the standing leg. I personally wouldn't try to pull back as I would be pulling his strike towards me. Unfortunately, pulling back is a natural response.

 

[JowGaWolf]

You have ti stand tall to avoid getting kneed.

JayOliver and maybe you misunderstood what I was describing. The lower stance has to exist before the clinch. Once the clinch is set, then everything below your chest is the danger zone. The only time I've been put into a clinch is when my stance was high enough to allow my opponent to set one in. Keep in mind it doesn't have to be some super low stance. Stances that are that low are used for wrestling. When I say take a lower stance it's only a few inches that are needed.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

TMA styles rarely train the clinch well enough nor throws full knees often,

Both clinch and knee strike are basic training for my guys.

 

[drop bear]

JayOliver and maybe you misunderstood what I was describing. The lower stance has to exist before the clinch. Once the clinch is set, then everything below your chest is the danger zone. The only time I've been put into a clinch is when my stance was high enough to allow my opponent to set one in. Keep in mind it doesn't have to be some super low stance. Stances that are that low are used for wrestling. When I say take a lower stance it's only a few inches that are needed.

And you can be clinched because you are a few inches lower?