Knee kick in stand up game, elbow drop in ground game

[Kung Fu Wang]

When

- your opponent punches at you, he has to shift weight on his leading leg. This will give you a chance to kick (or step down) on his knee joint.
- you are on the ground, you may not have proper distance for your punch, but you will have perfect distance for your elbow striking.

Both "knee kick" and "elbow drop" are power skills but we just don't see it's used often in UFC. Why? Your thought?

 

[Tony Dismukes]

The kick to the leading knee is currently underused in MMA, but with top fighters like Jon Jones and Conor McGregor using it effectively I imagine other fighters will soon follow suit.

The elbow strike on the ground is actually a mainstay of MMA and is used all the time by many, many fighters.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

The kick to the leading knee is currently underused in MMA, but with top fighters like Jon Jones and Conor McGregor using it effectively I imagine other fighters will soon follow suit.

This just further prove that sometime when MMA guys say that certain TMA techniques don't work in the ring, the truth is most MMA guys are not good in those TMA techniques yet.

We need "top fighters" to make a TMA technique popular just like we need a model to make some product to sale. I do have faith to see more and more TMA techniques to be used in MMA.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

This just further prove that sometime when MMA guys say that certain TMA techniques don't work in the ring, the truth is most MMA guys are not good in those TMA techniques yet.

We need "top fighters" to make a TMA technique popular just like we need a model to make some product to sale. I do have faith to see more and more TMA techniques to be used in MMA.

Over the history of modern MMA, more and more techniques have been added to the fighter's repertoire and I'm sure more will be in the years ahead. I think the most common reason why many of these techniques were not originally successful in the cage is largely down to two reasons:

1) The technique was good, but the fighters from the art it came from didn't have good training to prepare them for full-contact, mixed art competition.

2) The technique was good, the fighters were good, but they were missing some other element they needed to handle MMA competition. (Like pure strikers lacking takedown defense.)

 

[JP3]

Tony, I agree with you on both of those points. Agree with KFW as well.

Pretty much, one can pick just about any technique, other than something like the triple-spinning inverted dewdrop finger and stuff like that, and figure out a time and a place for it to be effective, otherwise it would not exist. This comment not meant to be extended to cover simple rules exploitation techniques, you guys. A great example of a rules-exploitation "technique" is the use of the turtle in groundwork in judo tournaments...... which is pretty close to the dumbest thing one could do in a real/street/MMA contest, methinks. But, in the controlled environment of judo tournament play, it's viable.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

I don't think those announcers know what 'hyperextend the knee' means.

 

[drop bear]

This just further prove that sometime when MMA guys say that certain TMA techniques don't work in the ring, the truth is most MMA guys are not good in those TMA techniques yet.

We need "top fighters" to make a TMA technique popular just like we need a model to make some product to sale. I do have faith to see more and more TMA techniques to be used in MMA.

Round kick hits the knee at a weaker angle. The knee braced is pretty strong.

 

[JowGaWolf]

When

- your opponent punches at you, he has to shift weight on his leading leg. This will give you a chance to kick (or step down) on his knee joint.
- you are on the ground, you may not have proper distance for your punch, but you will have perfect distance for your elbow striking.

Both "knee kick" and "elbow drop" are power skills but we just don't see it's used often in UFC. Why? Your thought?

Thanks for the video. I played the video in slow motion and noticed how bad the stances were. Now I'm sitting over here feeling happy that I do a lot of stance training. I actually had a conversation with the other instructor at my school about the "knee kick" after receiving a few during free sparring. 2 things help neutralize it. A low bow stance. It doesn't have to be super low, just low enough to put the thigh at about a 45 degree angle. The 45 degree angle gives less surface for the knee kick. The bow stance puts prevents the knee from being pushed backwards. Kicking the knee head on is like kicking a table corner head on.

What's really going to be interesting if stance training is implemented as a way to deal with that kick

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

What's really going to be interesting if stance training is implemented as a way to deal with that kick

When your opponent kicks on your knee, you can use stance to make yourself as heavy as a mountain. You can also bend your knee at your knee joint and let your opponent's kick to pass through as light as a feather.

IMO, the purpose of the knee kick is not to hurt your opponent's knee joint but to interrupt your opponent's attack. It also can be a distraction that the moment your opponent looks down at your knee kick, the moment that you can punch on his face. The "chain kick - knee stomping" is a very important part of the long fist system training.

 

[FriedRice]

- your opponent punches at you, he has to shift weight on his leading leg. This will give you a chance to kick (or step down) on his knee joint.

This is just a Teep to the lead leg, nothing new to Muay Thai:

- you are on the ground, you may not have proper distance for your punch, but you will have perfect distance for your elbow striking.

Plenty of elbow strikes in MMA for both standup and grounded.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Plenty of elbow strikes in MMA for both standup and grounded.

If you just pick up any 3 UFC fights, you may not see any elbow striking used. Here is an arbitrary one that I just pick up.

I like the side way dodging for "knee stomping" in that clip. It has the least amount effect on your structure. Not sure if your opponent steps down can hurt the lower leg or not. I like to test it in my next class.

 

[FriedRice]

This just further prove that sometime when MMA guys say that certain TMA techniques don't work in the ring, the truth is most MMA guys are not good in those TMA techniques yet.
.

Most TMA kicks and techniques are already in the Muay Thai repertoire. Spinning hook kick, spinning back kick, axe kick, sidekick, etc. A kick is a kick and nobody really owns the exact technique....although maybe with the exception the Muay Thai round-house, which is very unique to Muay Thai.

They are all trained, just that the bread & butter is the round-house kicks....easy and powerful. Spinning kicks do work, but are used sparingly in high level fights such as The UFC. Spinning is bad news when there are take-downs.....but by surprise, anyone can get caught. The main reason that Muay Thai is the staple of MMA is because MT gets right to the point with the training, just like Boxing....while Karate, Kung-Fu, etc... you have a lot of forms, traditions, etc. before you get down to knocking someone out.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

the Muay Thai round-house, which is very unique to Muay Thai.

Believe it or not, the MT roundhouse kick (contact with the instep) could not get score in the Karate tournament back in the early 70s. I believe it was changed after 1973 when "point system Karate" had changed into "full contact Karate".

 

[FriedRice]

If you just pick up any 3 UFC fights, you may not see any elbow striking used. Here is an arbitrary one that I just pick up.

I'm pretty sure Nak Muays know how to throw elbow strikes. The only way to really understand the nature of elbow strikes is to actually try to KO or cut someone with elbow strikes for real in a fight. It's not that easy while standing up. It's a very short range weapon and you usually have to be clinch fighting to throw them...unless, ie. you have a huge reach advantage on someone. If you throw it in jab range, the jab will beat it. If you throw it in hook range, you're wide open for a same side hook. Your reach with your elbow is just very short.

It's a good counter such as block, move in while up elbow (with the opposite elbow). This is all done in one move.

On the ground, then there are lots of other things going on such as trying to control position.
Current MMA dominantly trains Muay Thai, which means lots of elbow striking....so it's there.

 

[FriedRice]

Believe it or not, the MT roundhouse kick (contact with the instep) could not get score in the Karate tournament back in the early 70s. I believe it was changed after 1973 when "point system Karate" had changed into "full contact Karate".

I think in full contact, American Kickboxing around that time, it wasn't allowed to kick to the leg all together as it was considered too easy and trashy....like spamming. Then this fight happened where the Karatekas/Kickboxers agreed to let a Nak Muay kick to the leg (although I doubt they allowed full Muay Thai....so no clinch, knees nor elbows):

I read that despite Rick Roufus' brother talking mad trash about how cheesy it was during the interview right after, their whole camp went out ASAP to train Muay Thai techniques.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I like the side way dodging for "knee stomping" in that clip.

let me save you the time. The side way for dodging only works so long as the person doesn't follow through. I tried it already and what happens is when that knee turns, it begins to break the structure of the stance. Simply stepping on the calf muscle while it's in that position of dodging will make actually bring you to the ground. As a person who takes great pride in my stances and stability, there was nothing I could do with someone stepping on my calf muscle. And yes it hurt my ego for having to been brought to the ground like that. Still trying to figure out a counter for it.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I read that despite Rick Roufus' brother talking mad trash about how cheesy it was during the interview right after, their whole camp went out ASAP to train Muay Thai techniques.

It was very funny to hear someone said, "It doesn't take much talent to kick somebody's leg". The MT "low roundhouse kick" is so similar to "foot sweep". When I saw it the 1st time, I told myself, "I want that".

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Simply stepping on the calf muscle while it's in that position of dodging will make actually bring you to the ground. ... Still trying to figure out a counter for it.

That's what I thought too. I will test it some more in my tomorrow morning class.

When your opponent steps on your knee, the best counter should be to:

- bend your knee at your knee joint.
- Let your opponent's foot to step on the ground,
- you then step back on his knee, or sweep that leg.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I

The side way for dodging only works so long as the person doesn't follow through.

I have just tested that counter in my morning class. When I stomp on my opponent's knee, if he just move his knee side way, I can step down, hook on his ankle, and scoop his leg. That's not a proper counter at all.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Thanks for the feedback. I'm glad you tested it out because it provides it makes it easier to discuss possible counters. When I saw the video suggesting to move the leg to side, I already knew that wasn't going to be a solution for me. I think some people come up with partial solutions and not understanding that it get rid of one problem but then creates another that may be bigger than the original issue of being kicked in the knee.