StrongFighter
Green Belt
- Joined
- Feb 10, 2009
- Messages
- 137
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That is what they did in the old days and it still works.
Men were really Men back then.
Here is one positive rep. :ultracool
How do we desensitize our students to contact?
- Thread starter Thesemindz
- Start date
That is what they did in the old days and it still works.
Men were really Men back then.
Here is one positive rep. :ultracool
OP
- Thread Starter
- #42
You know, I can understand not agreeing with that position. But a negative rep ding?
Seems a little silly.
-Rob
And again I'll say, "Love it"
I have to agree with you and just2kicku on this one, again.
I know we have had some people state that MA is not all about kicking a**, but then what is it really good for? If you are looking for spiritual enlightenment, go take some yoga(not all of which is spiritual based) or something of that nature. Perfection of character, go serve in a soup kitchen. But please leave the MA alone. After the week I have had with my students, I am reserving the right to become even more of a sadistical ba****d. I am so sick of all these people coming in for (fill in the blank with some namby-pamby answer) and crying because I want to teach a MARTIAL art. I hope I get dinged by the same coward that dinged TF. If you don't want to prepare your students for what is out there, then fine, stop calling it a martial art.
Sorry for the rant, but it needed to be said.
Absolutely agree. When it comes to martial arts, you are learning to overcome an adversary, whether physically, mentally, or emotionally. Now, in learning this, you learn to overcome yourself as well, but, being martial arts, you're either learning to fight-- to use weapons, and be a weapon--, or you're not learning to fight, you're learning to dance.
But the problem nowadays is the litigious nature of our culture mixed with a protectionistic fear of any kind of discomfort.
I was teaching a 6 year old to keep their guard up when they're kicking. I went overboard on protection: I had the kid wear his sparring headgear, and used one of those Century blockers. And I hit just light enough to move his head about a half inch.
The parents still talked to me the next day, expressing their concern about that lesson. Never mind the fact that the kid learned to get his guard up. Never mind that he's a blue belt. Never mind that the parent is a green belt and knows first hand the importance of being able to hit and take a hit, as well as keep your guard up. "He's just 6 years old!" they say.
I've trained other kids his size to take on kids twice their size with success. Sorry, I know I'm ranting a little bit. The parents were concerned that all the kid learned was to be afraid of me holding a blocker.
Sigh.....
But the problem nowadays is the litigious nature of our culture mixed with a protectionistic fear of any kind of discomfort.
I was teaching a 6 year old to keep their guard up when they're kicking. I went overboard on protection: I had the kid wear his sparring headgear, and used one of those Century blockers. And I hit just light enough to move his head about a half inch.
The parents still talked to me the next day, expressing their concern about that lesson. Never mind the fact that the kid learned to get his guard up. Never mind that he's a blue belt. Never mind that the parent is a green belt and knows first hand the importance of being able to hit and take a hit, as well as keep your guard up. "He's just 6 years old!" they say.
I've trained other kids his size to take on kids twice their size with success. Sorry, I know I'm ranting a little bit. The parents were concerned that all the kid learned was to be afraid of me holding a blocker.
Sigh.....
Sorry sweetie the OP asked "How do we desensitize our students to contact" this includes BJJ, Wrestling, Judo, Combat JJ, Akido......ect. Not just the striking arts. But you are correct, I will not highjack another thread.
If you were going to teach self defence to women who were in a battered women shelter, women who were being hunted, would you use the "Hit 'em, Hit 'em again, Keep hitting 'em or tell them the dance studio is next door" method? Just asking.:angel: (this is an example of those most in need)
Lori
OP
- Thread Starter
- #47
I think something else people missed about my original post in this thread is that I don't just mean traumatic contact, or even grappling contact. I mean contact. In general.
My wife has clients freak when she washes their hair at the salon because they aren't used to strangers touching them.
I had a student break down into tears because someone touched her with their foot.
Adults in our society aren't used to being touched. At all. By anyone.
That's what we are facing. That's what we have to overcome.
Not just their fear of being hit, or grappled with. Their fear of being touched.
And that doesn't even take into account people who have PTSD, either from a previous assault or some other traumatic event. Or those who have mental or emotional problems which make contact with others more difficult.
-Rob
I guess we all need to go through some sensitivity training and start having group hugs in class. :wah:
I have had women in my classes before that had their husband try to kill them and their kids. And trust me, the heavy contact was one of the biggest things that they thanked me for. Along with that came the proper mindset of dealing with a larger, stronger opponent.
Pain is often a good teacher.
I have had women in my classes before that had their husband try to kill them and their kids. And trust me, the heavy contact was one of the biggest things that they thanked me for. Along with that came the proper mindset of dealing with a larger, stronger opponent.
Pain is often a good teacher.
In order to desensitize ourselves to anything, it has to be done by repitition of that certain thing. For a striker, it's taking shots over and over. For bjj, it's crawling around on the floor till it doesn't feel funny anymore. I asked my grampa when I was young what it was like to shoot someone in the war (WWII) and he said a little hard at first but you get used to it. The enemy is trying to kill you and the more real you train the better off you'll be.
As far as the example of the battered woman, the rules don't change. once again it does no good to train them to defend themselves and then they're afraid to use it. The contact still has to be there or the training does no good. They have to hit, and yes, get hit also, or roll on the mat with someone. The point is, there is no desensitizing if you avoid the the contact all together.
Just2kickU, first let me apologize for being rather sharp with you. My anger was misplaced and I was rude, I am sorry, please forgive me. There are those days when it's evident that I am a few sandwiches short of a picnic.
In any case try this; You have a 17 year old sister who heads to LA for a holiday with a few friends. While she is standing on the curb hailing a cab to take her back to the hotel two gang members grab her. These are big muscular guys with prison time, they know how to immobilize her and keep her quiet till they get her into a waiting car. A few solid punches to the head and she is KTFO. She is gang raped and left for dead. Someone calls the cops after the gang leaves and she gets to the hospital. The damage is severe, broken nose, cheek bones, right orbital, torn lips, broken teeth ( from punches whenever she cried out, resisted or didn't comply with the attackers) both writs broken from being stood on, damaged trachea from being choked, internal injuries from repeated kicks and the brutality of the rapes, head trama from the punches and repeated oxygen deprivation from chokes.
When your sister makes it back home she will not leave the house, she doesn't like leaving her room when visitors come over. No one but your mom can touch her. She doesn't go to the hair dresser anymore, or the beach, or school, shopping with her freinds, she won't even talk to guys, she can't look you in the eye. Her life gets smaller by the day. The feelings of helplessness, terror, and panic never stop.
Do you send her to a school that employs TwiFist's approach? If she breaks down and cries and he tells her the dance studio is next door how do you feel about that?
Put your Ego aside, think about being this girls brother and reread this thread.
lori
In any case try this; You have a 17 year old sister who heads to LA for a holiday with a few friends. While she is standing on the curb hailing a cab to take her back to the hotel two gang members grab her. These are big muscular guys with prison time, they know how to immobilize her and keep her quiet till they get her into a waiting car. A few solid punches to the head and she is KTFO. She is gang raped and left for dead. Someone calls the cops after the gang leaves and she gets to the hospital. The damage is severe, broken nose, cheek bones, right orbital, torn lips, broken teeth ( from punches whenever she cried out, resisted or didn't comply with the attackers) both writs broken from being stood on, damaged trachea from being choked, internal injuries from repeated kicks and the brutality of the rapes, head trama from the punches and repeated oxygen deprivation from chokes.
When your sister makes it back home she will not leave the house, she doesn't like leaving her room when visitors come over. No one but your mom can touch her. She doesn't go to the hair dresser anymore, or the beach, or school, shopping with her freinds, she won't even talk to guys, she can't look you in the eye. Her life gets smaller by the day. The feelings of helplessness, terror, and panic never stop.
Do you send her to a school that employs TwiFist's approach? If she breaks down and cries and he tells her the dance studio is next door how do you feel about that?
Put your Ego aside, think about being this girls brother and reread this thread.
lori
OP
- Thread Starter
- #51
I wouldn't dispute that.
But what about those students, male and female, who can't allow themselves to be touched by strangers, for whatever reason? Do we simply tell them to find someplace else to train? Or do we try to help them break down the emotional barriers they've built so that we can begin to teach them real self defense?
Pain can be a good teacher, but sometimes you have to lead a horse to water.
-Rob
Just2kickU, first let me apologize for being rather sharp with you. My anger was misplaced and I was rude, I am sorry, please forgive me. There are those days when it's evident that I am a few sandwiches short of a picnic.
In any case try this; You have a 17 year old sister who heads to LA for a holiday with a few friends. While she is standing on the curb hailing a cab to take her back to the hotel two gang members grab her. These are big muscular guys with prison time, they know how to immobilize her and keep her quiet till they get her into a waiting car. A few solid punches to the head and she is KTFO. She is gang raped and left for dead. Someone calls the cops after the gang leaves and she gets to the hospital. The damage is severe, broken nose, cheek bones, right orbital, torn lips, broken teeth ( from punches whenever she cried out, resisted or didn't comply with the attackers) both writs broken from being stood on, damaged trachea from being choked, internal injuries from repeated kicks and the brutality of the rapes, head trama from the punches and repeated oxygen deprivation from chokes.
When your sister makes it back home she will not leave the house, she doesn't like leaving her room when visitors come over. No one but your mom can touch her. She doesn't go to the hair dresser anymore, or the beach, or school, shopping with her freinds, she won't even talk to guys, she can't look you in the eye. Her life gets smaller by the day. The feelings of helplessness, terror, and panic never stop.
Do you send her to a school that employs TwiFist's approach? If she breaks down and cries and he tells her the dance studio is next door how do you feel about that?
Put your Ego aside, think about being this girls brother and reread this thread.
lori
First, there is no need to apologize, we agree to disagree. and I think this is healthy. What a boring world it would be if everyone agreed on everything.
Second, self defence classes are the last thing I would think for this girl( my sister in the example). I would think that getting her to some sort of therapist woulsd be the first order of business to get her head back semi straight. Sometimes people that have undergone such a severe trauma never bounce back, in which case I could not see putting her thru any kind of program.
But I would have to ask, Is there point to her ever taking self defence, if she can't be touched, would she not be able to protect herself anyway for fear of touching someone else? If so, then there isn't a class anywhere out there for her. Now on the other hand, if she is able to recover (maybe after years of therapy) and decides she will never be a victim again and will do whatever it takes, then I would have to say yes, I would take her to TwinFists' school.
I have met two rape victims in my life, one was a MAist, and you never would have guessed what she went thru until she talked about it. But she was one of the nicest and toughest ladys' I have ever met. The other went thru a lot of therapy and was able to cope with life, but I wouldn't have recomended any kind of training for her.
I am trying to leave the ego at the door, sort of speak, and I have my own ideas of what should be done with people that do these kind of f'd up crimes. (it involves explosives and sharp blades) But if someone wants to learn self defence, than they have to be able to deal with whatever contact comes with it. And the more of that contact they get, the less it will bother them.
I think I also need to state that I myself have been talking about 99% of the students that don't have any kind of problems. There are always the "special" cases that involve doing something a little different in the approach. I would not take a student with down syndrome or an autistic student and beat on them per say as I would the other students. There are special circumstances to everything. But someone who does not like to be touched should see a professional first to make sure they are well enough to take a certain class.
OP
- Thread Starter
- #54
I think a lot of martial artists don't realize that most adult americans don't like to be touched. They don't touch anybody, ever, in their daily lives. Outside of their family, they don't hug, they don't grapple, they don't shove each other, they don't even like to shake hands anymore. They bumb closed fists instead. They don't even like to bump into people on accident. Watch them walk through a mall or ride a bus. They collapse in on themselves to avoid coming into contact with each other, and if they do by accident, they recoil.
What I'm trying to convey, and what I think a lot of martial artists forget, is that unlike those of us who have been rolling around and hitting each other for years, when a student comes in off the street they don't have this kind of experience. They aren't used to being touched. I keep using the example of my wife the cosmetologist. She cuts hair. And her clients, who know they are going to a hair stylist to get their hair styled, are still uncomfortable being touched.
It isn't an issue of hit them till they get over it. Its an issue of bringing them to a place where they are ready to get hit at all without heading for the hills, or worse, suing you.
-Rob
If they have a real problem with any physical contact, then I cannot help them. I am not a psychologist or therapist, I am a martial arts instructor. I can deal with physical problems, but the mindset you are in referance to is beyond my scope of practice.
Rob I think that getting students to this place takes each student a different amount of time, different methods and perhaps different teachers. I think that only a small % of MA instructors are either willing or more so Able to work through the barriers you describe. The lucky one find them, the not so lucky ones....... well they get told about the dance studio next door. Rob, I would say your students got lucky, as was I. Cheers.
lori
OP
- Thread Starter
- #57
I'm willing to admit that I have a somewhat idealistic view of martial arts. I see the arts, and their practice, as something more than the mere transmission of physical technique. I recognize that this is a bit romantic, but I've always been a romantic idealist.
As such, I feel that when someone comes to me to learn self defense, I have a responsibility to that person. I see it as more than merely teaching them to punch and kick. I have had students with mental and emotional problems. I have had students with physical disabilities. I have had students who were the victims of real assaults. Muggings. Rapes.
Some of these students I could help. Some of them I could not. I never tried to exceed my experience. I'm not a licensed physician, or a psychiatrist. But I am a person who cares. As such, I was willing to try.
I had a woman who was middle aged. I never found out what happened to her, because I never asked and she never said, but I could tell she had been a victim of abuse. Probably more than once. Probably most of her life. She wasn't interested in learning how to punch and kick. She wanted to know how to get up if she was pushed to the ground. She wanted to know how to get a bigger stronger man off of her if he held her down. She wanted to know how to get a person out from between her legs while she was on her back. She didn't want to learn bearhug techniques. She didn't want me to put my arms around her, or my hands around her throat.
So I taught her what she wanted to learn. Over time, she became more and more confident in the skills she was learning. She did eventually learn to punch and kick. She grew to love her training. It gave her the confidence to stand up for herself when she was assaulted again years later.
I had another student who asked me what to do when a man was on top of her holding her down. I tried to teach her some grappling defenses, and some striking options. But no matter what I showed her, she kept asking how she could get him off her if he pinned her arms and held her down, without hurting him. In the end, there was nothing I could do, because I could never convince her that she might have to hurt the boyfriend who was date raping her in order to get him to stop.
The people who come into a karate school to learn self defense are each unique creatures. Some come to learn how to dance. Some come to collect trophies. Some come to gain self confidence. In my romantic, idealistic view of the world, the ones who come to learn self defense deserve just that. Real, applicable self defense. Not martial tom foolery. Not mystic nonsense. And if they come to me with scheduling difficulties, or financial problems, or mental or emotional barriers to their learning, then I am willing to do what I can to help.
Because I may not be a physician or a psychiatrist, but I am a person who cares.
-Rob
Riaan
White Belt
I think the traditional martial arts that focus on line work (up and down the hall in little neat rows) must change their way of working. Hitting air will get you nowhere. In the dojo I train at the only time you stand in a row is when there is conditioning being done with weights, ect. We almost exclusively do partner work and kata. I know I had a good time when my arms and shins are bruised. In the begining it is hard, but in time you will get hard and then also train harder. BTW I train in Goju Ryu.
OP
- Thread Starter
- #59
What are you referring to when you speak of kata? For most of us here, I think kata refers to pre-arranged sequences of movement performed without a partner. Are you referring to something else? If not, how does this practice differ in some important way from hitting the air?
I'm not sure I understand where you are going here. I agree that partner training is crucial to any real study of self defense. Are you saying that solo training is without value?
-Rob
I think searcher is right. The problem seems more deep rooted then what we are trained to deal with. It's like taking an alcoholic and telling them not to drink, in the end it is THEY themselves that have to decide they want to stop. MA may be a part of their therapy, but their mindset has to be there.
The person who does not liked to be touched is kinda the same way, they have to accept that being touched is part of the training, and then they have to find a way to deal with it. Sometimes they never will be able to, but they need help from other professionals. Everyone has their own battle they will have to fight, sometimes we can advise or be there for support but often these battles are up to them to overcome. To me, it's not fair to the rest of the class to cater to one person. There are private lessons, but the fear of being alone with the instructor and a witness might overcome their desire to learn. I personally am not a therapist or psychologist, but I do think that these people need to take care of the root of their problem first and then come to a class.
