Ideal coach-to-student ratio for different age groups

[skribs101]

I'm curious what others think is an ideal ratio of coaches to students, in each of these classes. By "coach" I mean anyone who is given the authority to help out with students who don't understand the technique, and (especially in the kids classes) keep them on task and following the rules. It could be anywhere from an assistant coach that just keeps kids in line and holds pads, to full-blown instructors capable of teaching the entire curriculum.

What is the ideal ratio for:

1. Young kids (age 4-7)
2. Older kids (age 8-14)
3. Teen and adult class

 

[wab251]

For all groups teen and younger... (anyone not an adult) You should have at least 2 "leaders" (coaches) at all times. I would take a look at the Scouting Youth Protection system, two deep leadership stuff for some good ideas. The basic idea is to make sure there is A) no one on one contact between adults and kids and B) no appearance of one on one contact. You always want other people to support your story of what did or did not happen.

The Scouting program will go a little overkill, they want one leader per kid for their youngest (1st grade level). That's probably a little much. But you will want as many eyes around as possible, the younger the kids are. Even if they are not out on the mat. I would encourage the parents to stay and watch their kids.... it is as much to protect you as it is to protect their kids. If any kind of accusation is made... you want as many witnesses as you can get saying it did not happen like that.

The Scouting program gets into tons of details about things like digital communication, phone calls, private conversations, cameras.... These are things to at least think about. If you have minors of any age, include a parent on every email and text sent, make sure there are people around if you are on the phone with a minor, never be alone with a minor.

I have seen way to many martial arts instructors ignore these types of things. They send an email to all the students "testing is next week, remember to wear your best uniform," then one student replies just to the instructor "am I testing?" Instructor replies "yes, wear your best uniform," student "do you think my blue one is the best?" Instructor "yes you blue one is fine" Now the student fails the test... "But the instructor told me how much he likes me wearing my blue gi and how good I look in it... so I wore it for him and he didn't pass me, watch out for that creep...." And we have all seen the stories wear the instructor is a creep.

I know you were looking for people on the mat helping them to stay on target with the class.... But, I wanted to at least throw this out as well.... consider protection and witnesses for both the kids and the coaches.... everyone can get burned here.

 

[skribs101]

For all groups teen and younger... (anyone not an adult) You should have at least 2 "leaders" (coaches) at all times. I would take a look at the Scouting Youth Protection system, two deep leadership stuff for some good ideas. The basic idea is to make sure there is A) no one on one contact between adults and kids and B) no appearance of one on one contact. You always want other people to support your story of what did or did not happen.

The Scouting program will go a little overkill, they want one leader per kid for their youngest (1st grade level). That's probably a little much. But you will want as many eyes around as possible, the younger the kids are. Even if they are not out on the mat. I would encourage the parents to stay and watch their kids.... it is as much to protect you as it is to protect their kids. If any kind of accusation is made... you want as many witnesses as you can get saying it did not happen like that.

The Scouting program gets into tons of details about things like digital communication, phone calls, private conversations, cameras.... These are things to at least think about. If you have minors of any age, include a parent on every email and text sent, make sure there are people around if you are on the phone with a minor, never be alone with a minor.

I have seen way to many martial arts instructors ignore these types of things. They send an email to all the students "testing is next week, remember to wear your best uniform," then one student replies just to the instructor "am I testing?" Instructor replies "yes, wear your best uniform," student "do you think my blue one is the best?" Instructor "yes you blue one is fine" Now the student fails the test... "But the instructor told me how much he likes me wearing my blue gi and how good I look in it... so I wore it for him and he didn't pass me, watch out for that creep...." And we have all seen the stories wear the instructor is a creep.

I know you were looking for people on the mat helping them to stay on target with the class.... But, I wanted to at least throw this out as well.... consider protection and witnesses for both the kids and the coaches.... everyone can get burned here.

I'm trying to focus this thread more on day-to-day operations as far as keeping everyone on task and making sure students get enough coaching time to feel they're not being ignored.

I have some other threads that have gone into the Safesport stuff, and in addition I've been Safesport certified and am generally aware of these kinds of policies from youth groups I grew up in.

I'm not saying it's not important, but it's not the question I'm trying to answer right now.

 

[philwhite33]

Wow this thread got gross. I have two kids so I get it though.

What ratio? It really depends. Its nice when you have helpers or second instructors buts thats not always possible. I try to plan my schedules based on what I can do and some classes are more challanging.

If its pad strikes I can have tons of people on the floor. These are easier classes to maintain. Youth classes are the hardest. Kids classes are usually easy. We keep these shorter to match their attention span.

Teens and adults can go either way. They are usually much easier for technique classes but harder in sparring. Teens don’t realize their power and men sometimes let ego take over.

 

[skribs101]

Wow this thread got gross

Honestly I'm leaning more and more towards AI with my questions. I figure the end result is roughly the same as a forum: a conglomerate of human experience condensed into a single thread. However, AI tends to stay on topic and ask the questions I'm asking.

For example, if I were to ask a forum if I should get a Mustang or a Camaro, I'm sure I'd get a bunch of answers about what color of car I should get, to make sure that I don't pay for extended warranties, that a pickup truck is better, some story about a drive-in movie someone watched while driving a Thunderbird, and to make sure I get the extended warranties. Maybe one person in the pack will actually discuss Mustangs or Camaros, and they won't even compare the two.

If I ask AI, it answers the question. It might hallucinate some information, but so might a person. It might not be entirely correct, but so might a person. But it stays on topic.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf103]

Regardless of age range, 3-5 students per instructor is ideal to me. That way you're able to sort students into small groups when needed and have an instructor work with each group, and when everyone is together you've got a lot of eyes on them.

That said, it's not exactly cheap or realistic to have that many instructors in each class.

 

[philwhite33]

My biggest classes have been about 15-16 students. We just end up with a ton of interest in the 8-10 range. We're trying to work around this but when most of your students are beginners they stay in the same class.

I don't have an assistant but I do get some help from our adult students on occasion.

We purposely plan the schdule based around capacity. I do a large class on wednesdays because I know its occasionally a chuch night which keeps the size in check. Sparring is belt limited so it keeps things in check there as well.

If I only taught 3-5 students it would be great but I couldn't keep the lights on financially doing that.

As far as AI I use it too but I don't love it. It basically gives you the answer you already knew to be true. If you correct it, it changes its tune to follow the new thought path you put it on. I believe the term is self confirmation bias.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf103]

That's the same issue I have with AI. Great for saving me on repetitive tasks, coding, or doing things I don't have expertise in. Also good for initial brainstorming. No ability really to push back or challenge my thoughts, and can lead one down a rabbit hole that seems amazing but actually is a horrible idea.

 

[skribs101]

I feed it questions to give me pros and cons. I feel it does a pretty good job of that.

 

[wab251]

I'm trying to focus this thread more on day-to-day operations as far as keeping everyone on task and making sure students get enough coaching time to feel they're not being ignored.

I have some other threads that have gone into the Safesport stuff, and in addition I've been Safesport certified and am generally aware of these kinds of policies from youth groups I grew up in.

I'm not saying it's not important, but it's not the question I'm trying to answer right now.

I guess I owe you an apology.... I did not read every thread you have ever started, nor all 8,836 posts you have made, to understand exactly what questions you have already asked and found answers to on this forum before responding to this thread. I will make note of this requirement going forward. Question though, does that only have to occur before responding to threads you start or does that rule apply to any thread you post in? (or will post in?) Maybe a moderator can update the rules of posting here with those requirements....

I merely read the opening post and responded to it. It was asking about the "Ideal coach to student ratio" for kids classes. In the explanation it mentioned keeping the kids "on task and following the rules." I guess I may have extrapolated "acting appropriately and being treated appropriately" in the "following the rules" bit. I assumed that the rules would include some type of respect for others.... but yes, I should not assume. Again, my apologies.

The other consideration I had when making my post was that this is a public board, with lots of people reading these, now and in the future. Someone may find this thread and look here for guidance or thoughts on what ratios to look for when putting their kids in class or maybe they are have their own kids class and may be wondering about their own ratios or maybe they never thought about the ratios before.... Not all of these people will search all your previous threads and posts, to know every facet you have already asked and answered. Having seen many kids classes neglect, forget or not know about the importance "youth protection" I thought I would mention it. Too many innocent people have had their lives ruined because no one thought to have a few measures in place. I have seen both real and false accusations ruin lives. If mentioning this when talking about how to run classes for young kids, prevents even one innocent person from having their life ruined.... I am not too concerned that it ticks you off.

 

[skribs101]

I guess I owe you an apology.... I did not read every thread you have ever started, nor all 8,836 posts you have made, to understand exactly what questions you have already asked and found answers to on this forum before responding to this thread. I will make note of this requirement going forward. Question though, does that only have to occur before responding to threads you start or does that rule apply to any thread you post in? (or will post in?) Maybe a moderator can update the rules of posting here with those requirements....

I was making you aware of those other threads to stop the argument in its tracks. So that we could avoid the back-and-forth of, "This is off topic", "But this is important!"

And yes, I do think that threads should stay on topic.

I merely read the opening post and responded to it. It was asking about the "Ideal coach to student ratio" for kids classes. In the explanation it mentioned keeping the kids "on task and following the rules." I guess I may have extrapolated "acting appropriately and being treated appropriately" in the "following the rules" bit. I assumed that the rules would include some type of respect for others.... but yes, I should not assume. Again, my apologies.

Your comment had nothing to do with ratios. You did not even attempt to answer the question at hand. You admit in this quoted piece that you purposefully and willfully misinterpreted what I posted by rewording it to something different and then making assumptions based on that.

Then you bring up the topic of respect. You have completely disrespected this thread. You haven't respected the topic. You haven't respected me. So on the one hand, you don't deserve my respect. You're not a member of my gym. You're just some random person on the internet. If you troll me, what benefit do I have of showing you respect?

Oh, except...the disrespect? That you're so offended by? "Please stay on topic." I didn't insult you. I didn't call you names. I didn't attack you passive-aggressively the way you did me. I merely pointed out that this topic has been discussed in other threads, and I'd like to keep this thread on topic to the question you neglected to answer.

The other consideration I had when making my post was that this is a public board, with lots of people reading these, now and in the future. Someone may find this thread and look here for guidance or thoughts on what ratios to look for when putting their kids in class or maybe they are have their own kids class and may be wondering about their own ratios or maybe they never thought about the ratios before....

Should I just go into all of your threads and reply to every single one of them that youth safety is important? Because someone reading that thread might not have thought of it. Maybe you're talking about a form. Have we mentioned how some instructors get handsy when teaching forms? You may be talking about a punch. A punch can be taught in a private lesson, which if there's no cameras or guardians can be a place of isolation and abuse.

I know your apology was insincere. But you're the one who responded off-topic. You shouldn't be surprised I'm asking this thread to stay on topic.

You're being a jerk and playing the victim. This is why I prefer talking to AI.

 

[Buka19]

It’s a complicated question to me. I can only speak to teen and adult classes. My experience with younger kids is limited.

I also think the ideal ratio might differ depending on what Martial Art is being taught and how much experience the students have.

And if it’s a sparring/grappling/boxing class, hoo boy, that’s different too.

 

[wab251]

Your comment had nothing to do with ratios. You did not even attempt to answer the question at hand.

If you had bothered to look into the Youth Protection part of the Scouting program, you will find that it very much addresses ratios. I even mentioned one of the specific ratios it uses for its youngest group, which includes the youngest group that you mentioned. They go into the ratios a bit more though. Lets say they have a ratio for a particular age group of 1 adult for every 4 kids. That means for 8 kids you need 2 adults... but if you only have 4 kids.... the two deep leadership over rides and says you still need that second adult even though the ratio would say you only need one. That program goes into great amounts of detail on different age groups and different types of activities, giving specific ratios for each combination. It was exactly an answer to the ratio question. I just added that there is more to consider than just teaching the art.

 

[philwhite33]

Cub scout ratios are not comparable. The reason for why they are as they are is because they do things like camping and field trips, where adult will be around kids in a less public space. When you have an open dojo floor that the world can look in the window and many parents stay in the lobby you have a much safer environment for kids. If I had 1 instructor for every 4 kids I’d be broke.

 

[skribs101]

Cub scout ratios are not comparable. The reason for why they are as they are is because they do things like camping and field trips, where adult will be around kids in a less public space. When you have an open dojo floor that the world can look in the window and many parents stay in the lobby you have a much safer environment for kids. If I had 1 instructor for every 4 kids I’d be broke.

Depends on the level of instructor. We've had kids from the big kids class volunteer with the littles before. But the good ones we have left (one's doing basketball, the other band and robotics). And the rest of them that have tried to help us have started causing problems in their class and subsequently been banned from volunteering.

In the little's class, there's a lot of kids that require a coach be assigned to them. The ones that either:

• Do absolutely nothing unless a coach tells them directly to do it
• Do absolutely everything unless a coach tells them directly not to do it

These are the kids that it's nice to have a buffer with assistant coaches.