How close do UFC fights come to real life self defence?

DarrenJew

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I havent been in a fight in 20 years...(not counting the zero tolerance issue Im having at work... currently) But being young and stupid at one point (like any other guy) Ive had my share of black eyes. Fortunately none went to the ground, none ever had weapons involved other than a car one time. Maybe times have changed, and young st*p*d people prefer ground fighting now a days? Oh the car incident... I remember having to flee from a bar fight, a few blows thrown and a couple of kicks... Both sides knew the police was called (considering the Bar Tender said, "Stop, I calling the Cops", and a massive exit by both parties became priority over beating each other up. As one of my buddies was leaving he was run over by a 240z exiting the parking lot... Luckily he had enough sense to jump just before the car struck him... Ended up rolling over the top of the car as it sped away. Another time I also remember sitting in a bar when I see my friend Bob sitting across the table from me get that look... Hes staring another guy down that appears to be sitting behind me. Finally hed had enough slams his drink down on the table and stands up. First thing I think is Oh S**t here we go again... my adrenaline kicks in.... but all of the sudden he sits back down... I turn around and about 35 feet behind me is one of those walls with a large mirror covering it. Bob is the only guy I know that ever picked a fight with himself. lol

Sometimes it the company that you keep which bring those situations about.
 

sgtmac_46

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Usually, when I hear someone saying that the UFC isn't realistic, it's coming from "reality based martial arts" exponents or traditional martial artists, who have rarely, or never been in a fight. I always walk away wondering what they know about it. On the part of some traditional martial artists, they are trying to discredit mma/nhb fighting because it conflicts with their traditional system. On the part of reality based teachers, they don't want to have to enter a ring to convince people that their theoretically based system works on the street. Always look at the source. Are there modifications that need to be done to adapt what we learn in UFC style competition to the street? Yes. Is it more realistic than a lot of the other crap out there? YES!!! It's a lot easier to add an eye gouge to a UFC useful system, than to invent an untested system that will work in the street, if eye gouging is all people are worried about.
 
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Corporal Hicks

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Well surely the fact that it has rules automaticly reduces its validity? The fact that they are in a ring and wearing only shorts reduces its validity. I'm a RBSD Martial Artist and I'm beginning to think that UFC doesnt become close to self defence. RBSD fights (i know because I have been there) are bang bang bang dead quick, you looking at fights that last 20 seconds starting generally with the typical sucker punch. UFC has time to prepare for fights, they have mental and physical preperation which can start two/three hours before their SCHEDULED fights. In RBSD training you gotto train to have 2/3 seconds to get into that mind set!
 

Bod

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UFC style fights are also over quickly. Certainly the standing to floor grappling part, after which the skill of the sportsmen on the floor slows the action down.

And it's in a dominant position during floor grappling that a gouge or other dirty trick is most effective - this includes the scoring non-submission holds in judo and wrestling that are used to transition to a submission hold in UFC style fights. You can easily bight the nose on top in Kesa-Gatami (scarf hold far easier than the chap underneath can pinch your ribs.

It is also of note that small time thugs do actually watch UFC style fights on TV. A close friend of mine with no MA experience was recently kicked, tackled and then beaten about the face from his attackers mount. The kid attacking him was about 15-18 years old and won by surprise and then using pretty standard MMA techniques. By the way my friend describes finally pushing off the attacker it is quite likely that the attacker had no actual MMA training.

Even if the UFC is not like real fights, real fights are getting more like the UFC.
 

47MartialMan

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sgtmac_46 said:
Usually, when I hear someone saying that the UFC isn't realistic, it's coming from "reality based martial arts" exponents or traditional martial artists, who have rarely, or never been in a fight..
Not so true, per many fghits in the real world do not look that way.



sgtmac_46 said:
I always walk away wondering what they know about it. On the part of some traditional martial artists, they are trying to discredit mma/nhb fighting because it conflicts with their traditional system.
It should not. Trad MA were for realistic fighting, generallly to the death per its development per its era.



sgtmac_46 said:
On the part of reality based teachers, they don't want to have to enter a ring to convince people that their theoretically based system works on the street.
Perhaps they already had and that they already made adjustments.



sgtmac_46 said:
Always look at the source. Are there modifications that need to be done to adapt what we learn in UFC style competition to the street? Yes. Is it more realistic than a lot of the other crap out there? YES!!! It's a lot easier to add an eye gouge to a UFC useful system, than to invent an untested system that will work in the street, if eye gouging is all people are worried about.
Is not if UFC can adept or work on the street. it is the name that is blown out. It is not truely UFC in the ring.
 
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RMACKD

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47MartialMan said:
Those are the rules currently. But the rules when the tma and rbsd people were coming into it was no biting or eye gouging. Neither which are severely disabling techniques. Biting and eye gouging is a very small part of the martial arts arsenal and if you can not fight well without those two techniques then you probably going to get stomped on in a streetfight. There is a vid on the internet with a kung fu guy fighting an mma fighter andwhen the fight went to the ground the kung fu guy tried to claw his eyes but the mma dude just broke with his arm with a key lock and walked out unscathed. Besides that where is the litimus test for streetfighting? Are you going to beat up that drunk at the bar? That will prove nothing. Fighters are also able to turn on that switch that turns them from an average person to an aggressive "beast" I guess you could say. The adrenaline rush before a fight also is more similar to what you will feel when you are about to fight on the street than doing some role playing sparring in class. How do people know that there eye gouges or bite techniques will work on a partner if you can not use them in all out sparring? But even if the eye gouges and biting were not allowed in the early UFC's that would still mean that the mma fighters were better at groundwork, takedowns, striking, ect and the other fighters might have been better at 2 techniques. Those are not very good odds. The fights in the UFC do take a while because the fighters are pretty equally in skill. However when Vitor Blefort fought a practicioner of an RBSD system (under rules that allowed biting and eye gouging, the man actually viciously attacked another mans eyes in another match) it happened very quick. TMA's and RBSD lack testing grounds, you can not prove somethign is better in a life and death situation without doing it.
 
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agatanai atsilahu

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Biting and eye gouging are not severely disabling techniques? This debate is officially impossible to rationally continue.
 

MJS

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IMO, I think that the name of the event was a little mis-leading. When it was first aired, it was billed as a no rules, anything goes event. However, there were still rules in place. Compared to the first few shows, there currently are many more rules in place.

One thing that we need to keep in mind, is that this is a sport event. That being said, there are going to be rules in place for fighter safety. I would think that some aspects would be able to be applied to a street fight, but again, we need to keep in mind that we are talking about 2 very different things here.

Mike
 
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agatanai atsilahu

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You are absolutely right. UFC is a sporting event, and I havent chimed in all the heated this is better than that stuff finger pointing. I draw the line though, when you try to sell the idea that biting and gouging are not severely damaging. I posted something similar somewhere, and the reason bites or might may be lessoned in effect is the fact these fighters realize they are in a sporting event, NOT a real fight. Although this will never justify anyone, grappler or otherwise to boost and/or promote a style, by belittling real world proven techniques. We shouldnt allow that sort of thing to happen. Its dangerous misinformation.
 

Paul Genge

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I recently took part in a Bullshido Throw down. During this we had a match under Vale Tudo rules. I also have alot of real world experience gained during 9 years of being a cop.

Real fights and competitions are two different beasts. In a competion there is a presure to win. This causes tension and fear which is different from what is caused when there is only presure to survive. In a real fight you do not get penalised if you do not attack or offer aggression towards your partner, you do not get disqualified for climbing out of the ring at the first opportunity to do so safely.

Having said that fighting under these sorts of rules does give us the opportunity to feel some of the sensations experienced during combat and a chance to apply parts of whatever system you study to a full speed and often aggressive assailent. If your goal in martial arts is more than sporting it can be healthy to use MMA type bouts as a form of extreme trainng. The only difficulty comes if you are not prepared enough for it. People who have not been prepared enough for this experience will either suffer the effects of injury to either their physical or phycological health.

For more articles on subjects such as surviving kicks on the floor and applying systema to a MMA environment please checkout my site.

Paul Genge
Russian Martial Arts Northwest (UK)
 
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Corporal Hicks

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RMACKD said:
Those are the rules currently. But the rules when the tma and rbsd people were coming into it was no biting or eye gouging. Neither which are severely disabling techniques. Biting and eye gouging is a very small part of the martial arts arsenal and if you can not fight well without those two techniques then you probably going to get stomped on in a streetfight. There is a vid on the internet with a kung fu guy fighting an mma fighter andwhen the fight went to the ground the kung fu guy tried to claw his eyes but the mma dude just broke with his arm with a key lock and walked out unscathed. QUOTE]

Can I just say that this video is actually fake, that guy in that video does not do Kung Fu, its a scam that was set up I believe by another website to get their point across. Can I add that a real Kung Fu MA does not go out of his/her way to fight an MMA fighter or other fighter for that instance, if he/she does then she is not very good and does not understand the system.

Regards
 

sgtmac_46

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Again, the only difference between the UFC style competition and the street is the element of surprise. That's it. The techiques are the same. The only difference is that you get to deliver the punch with the other person not expecting it. That's why street fights are over so fast, not because there's a different technique that works in the ring versus the street. An understanding of Speed, Surprise and Violence of Action is all that's missing between the MMA ring and the street. Anyone thing otherwise, pick a street fight with an MMA practioner and we can solve this argument real quick. As i've said before, if eye gouging is all people are worried about, big deal. How hard is it to add eye gouges to an MMA system? As far as bites, i've been bitten in fights and it isn't a big deal. The pain I felt was very distant and dissassociated. I found the experience more annoying than painful or disabling. The last guy that did it found getting his head bashed in to the asphalt afterwards more disconcerting that I found his bite. I can further back this up by saying that i've been bitten by a couple of police K9's, including my Belgian Malinois, and no human being bites like that. Again, the experience was one of pain disassociation and I was able to work through it. A human bite is nasty, but it does nothing to render someone combat ineffective. Eye gouges are a different story, but again, you can't eye gouge anyone if you get knocked unconcious or tied up on the ground.
 

dsp921

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I haven't read this entire thread so maybe this stuff was covered...
To me, there are some big differences between a UFC (or Pride or K1) fight and a street defense situation. On the street you don't necessarily know you are going to fight, who you are fighting and what their skill level is, you don't know if they are armed or if their friends are going to jump in. In a UFC match you know well in advance who and when you are fighting, you know what their skills are and you are matched up (at least size-wise). There is no chance of a weapon or a gang of friends piling in. You can be pretty sure you won't be killed or beaten beyond a "reasonable" level. You have ample time to prepare.
That said, the UFC, K1, Pride, etc guys are most definitely some tough fighters. They are out there in the ring putting in on the line and seeing what they have. That I have great respect for. There is no doubt in my miind they are tough, skilled fighters. UFC, etc, are most likely the best test of your skill, but it still isn't the same as a street defense.
 

MJS

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One thing that I'd like to say regarding the eye gouges and bites. IMO, they are not meant to be fight stoppers. At the very least, they can be simple distractions, used by the defender to set up other moves. They are right up there with a pinch, spitting, a low line kick, etc., to momentarily distract the attacker from his primary attack, so that you can execute your defense a little easier.

Mike
 

47MartialMan

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agatanai atsilahu said:
You are absolutely right. UFC is a sporting event, and I havent chimed in all the heated this is better than that stuff finger pointing. I draw the line though, when you try to sell the idea that biting and gouging are not severely damaging. I posted something similar somewhere, and the reason bites or might may be lessoned in effect is the fact these fighters realize they are in a sporting event, NOT a real fight. Although this will never justify anyone, grappler or otherwise to boost and/or promote a style, by belittling real world proven techniques. We shouldnt allow that sort of thing to happen. Its dangerous misinformation.
So why call it "Ultimate"? Why not "Hard Core Ring", or Rong Supremacy"....
 
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RMACKD

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Biting and eye gouging are not necesarily fight stoppers. Eye gouging can help blind an attacker but most people find it hard to launch and eye gouge attack in the free movement phase of the fight when there heart is pumping and they are in the middle of an adrenaline spurt and they are trying to stick a dime sized finger into a dime sized target. Besides that realize that you can not train biting and eye gouging at full force. Thats like trying to become a good basketball player by shooting all the time with no one to block you. The fight between John Marsh and the kung fu guy definitely not fake. But by the way why is it always when a practicioner challenges an mma fighter and gets whooped he did not know real kung fu? How come most of the traditional fighters in the beginning UFC realized the shortcomings and started training mma? Can someone define severely damaging? I simply consider something that can really wreck you like being crippled, your face smashed in, broken bones. While biting and eye gouging are definitely nasty things.(Thats why they are not allowed in most sporting events) they are in my opinion not deadly as simply holding the crucifix neck crank until their neck breaks. I should have elaborated that in my first posts. As for why it is called Ultimate? Who cares! The definition of ultimate is not no rules. If you call something Ultimate Fighting it does not have to have no rules. It is Ultimate in the fact that you can strike both in free movement and grappling phases, wrestle, position and do submissions. No other martial arts sport allows you to do that. But there have been some competitions where biting and eye gouging is allowed held in brazil and russia(which has a long lineage of mma combat). The most people do forget that the rules do protect the man fighting for the rbsd and traditional systems as well. If they did not than in those fights between people of those systems between mma fighters they would get curbed after they were beat half the death. I do not however believe that the UFC is the same as a streetfight. They do however say something about a persons ability under full contact situations. I just find saying that a system can not function in a full contactenviroment because of biting and eye gouging not being allowed is a very, very poor excuse.
 

sgtmac_46

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dsp921 said:
I haven't read this entire thread so maybe this stuff was covered...
To me, there are some big differences between a UFC (or Pride or K1) fight and a street defense situation. On the street you don't necessarily know you are going to fight, who you are fighting and what their skill level is, you don't know if they are armed or if their friends are going to jump in. In a UFC match you know well in advance who and when you are fighting, you know what their skills are and you are matched up (at least size-wise). There is no chance of a weapon or a gang of friends piling in. You can be pretty sure you won't be killed or beaten beyond a "reasonable" level. You have ample time to prepare.
That said, the UFC, K1, Pride, etc guys are most definitely some tough fighters. They are out there in the ring putting in on the line and seeing what they have. That I have great respect for. There is no doubt in my miind they are tough, skilled fighters. UFC, etc, are most likely the best test of your skill, but it still isn't the same as a street defense.
I think the real question everyone is trying to dodge around, is whether or not techniques that work to damage a human being in the NHB ring work on human beings in the street. Human physiology being what it is, there is nothing difference between in the ring and on the street. So now we've established that the techniques are the same.

That having been settled, we can debate whether the strategy is the same. The easy answer is "of course not". The strategy in the ring is to gain a submission of some sort, whether by tap out or knock out, or to gain a decision. The strategy in the street is to survive relatively unscathed. In the ring everyone is there for the same reason, so the element of surprise is limited. On the street, the element of surprise is a HUGE element.

Competitors in combat arts like boxing, muay thai, and the UFC (as opposed to point fighting styles) rarely lose street fights. I've seen this with my own eyes, boxers in a bar fight usually render people unconcious (this, despite the fact that there isn't a square ring and a referee). The surest way to learn to fight human beings...is to fight human beings. NHB fighting is the closest thing we legally have to a real street fight. Of course it's not exactly like a street fight, but no one has pointed toward anything better.

So, in short, the techniques that work in NHB fighting directly transfer to the street, which was really the point to begin with. At no point did anyone claim that fights on the street happen in a big octagon, with a referee and a time limit. The question settled by the UFC is what techniques work best to fight other human beings. The application of that lesson on the street is up to you. Lest we forget, BJJ was being tested in the streets in REAL street fights for years before the UFC came along. Ditto boxing and muay thai.
 
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JKD_Silat

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RMACKD said:
How do you really "train" these dirty tatics when you can not use them against fully resisting opponents. It would be like practicing punching without ever using it in an alive sitiuation. I would not say the first UFC's had a lot of rules. The two rules were no biting or eye gouging. However if you did do any of these two techniques the fight would not be stopped and the only penalty was that they had to pay the other competitor a small fee if they caused any major damage. Gordeau actually bit Royces ear and Tank Abbot had been eye gouged during his match and Frank Shamrock has been eye gouged but they still made no difference in the outcome of the match. There has been many mma matches that have had biting or eye gouging occur. Just my .9 cents.
I'm actually agreeing with you about the early UFC's not having a lot of rules. I suppose I should have made my point more clear. That is, in spite of all that, the MMA fights at the pro level nowadays are still pretty much a "level playing field", where as with real life street fights , it is seldom the case. To take " you know who you are going to fight in advance, and have the luxury of training for them accordingly " point even further, it's also possible that you may have to deal with multiple opponents in the street. Also, god knows what kind of "ground" your dealing with (broken glass, rain, concrete, asphalt, ect.). MMA fights, however they may promote themselves as NHB (no holds barred), are still very much controlled situations. How many street fights have a ref, or a doctor to step in when a fighters saftey is in question? Yes, a lot of sport martial arts are very effective in real life self defense, however, martial arts training for sport, and training for self defense are two different worlds. One not better than the other, just different.
You asked a good question about how do you actually "train" these dirty tactics. Simply put, you need body armor of some sort (think womens rape prevention classes where the assailant wheres full body padding), and some tactics you obviously can't train 100%, but you go to the point where it's understood that you could have applied the tactic. Even If you only train at say 30% to at least ingrain it into your muscle memory, and be able to recognize opportunities to apply the tactics, its still far better than never training it at all.

Regards
 

47MartialMan

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Yeah...I am not sayong they are not effective either....I am only hashing on the technicality of the name-not the fighters.
 
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