Ho Kam Ming wing chun

guy b.

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Some people here on the forum study HKM/Augustine Fong wing chun. This is not a wing chun I have seen before. Can anyone explain what differentiates this wing chun from others (particularly WSL VT), and describe what is particularly good about it please? Any video showing what you mean would be useful.
 

wckf92

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I can't and wouldn't claim to speak for HKM (or any lineage) but I will share this: I recently met a HKM practitioner...and he had a solid understanding of WC, a good solid horse, properly aligned and pressured elbows, crisp forms and footwork, etc. It was a good encounter for sure and gave me a respect for him and his HKM lineage.
 

Vajramusti

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Some people here on the forum study HKM/Augustine Fong wing chun. This is not a wing chun I have seen before. Can anyone explain what differentiates this wing chun from others (particularly WSL VT), and describe what is particularly good about it please? Any video showing what you mean would be useful.
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I respect WSL.There are good and bad and name droppers in all "lineages".I have been doing Augustine Fong's version of wing chun since 1976. All my shortcomings are mine. I have gone to Ho Kam ming seminars-
have visited with him and taken private lessons with him in Canada. I have met WSL in California and Texas and have rolled with him. I have rolled with Ho kam Ming, WSL, TST, Victor Kan, Hawkins Cheung and my sifu and quite a few people from other lineages. I prefer what I do- why else would I do it?

Ho Kam Ming was as close to IP Man as anyone-but I try not to put down others who learned from IM.
What is characteristic of good HKM wing chun -IMO? You name it-foot work, handwork, precision, timing, control, power ,integrated structure, square bodied balancing,adjustment and more- the whole enchilada. I have some excellent sihings and sisters including Danny Chan. Van Iotti . Carinna, Brian Tufts and others.

Ip Man used to visit Ho Kam Ming's school in Macao and corrected folks there including my sifu.
Ho Kam Ming has had some good students including Augustine Fong, Luis Ming Fai (Macao and HK)
and Kiet Pham(Toronto). Sigung's oldest son and several of his wing chun brothers teach in Macao.
HKM is 90 years old and is basically retired.
.
There are several people who drop HKM's name but they really have not been consistent HKm students- just visitors. Many folks don't know- Hawkins Cheung used to hang around HKM's Macao school.
There was acontest to celebrate the formation of Hong Kong Martial arts association. Tang asked IP Man for fighters- IM directed him to HKM who provided the fighters and they all won. When Thai fighters first came to HK it wasa disaster for wc- but HKM sent fighters in the return engagement and the results were different.
.
HKM is 90 years old and is basically retired.
 

Danny T

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Haven't studied HKM but have had the pleasure to have a couple of their practitioners train with us for a few sessions. Neither trained with HKM but were within the lineage. First one was a 30 something lady who told us she had been training for about 2 years. She was in our area for 2 weeks and came in to play. Stance & structure was excellent, her chi sao was very good. The second was a gentleman who if I remember correctly have been training for about 5 years. Solid structure, sensitivity was very good, movement smooth, relaxed, yet powerful. Their applications of the drills were a bit different and we all learned from each other. The most significant thing I found was neither were accustom to being hit but other than that what they had was good.
 

KPM

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Thanks Joy! Please tell us....does HKM lineage teach that the empty hands are derived from the Pole? Does HKM lineage teach that the Tan Sau is only for training the elbow? Does HKM lineage teach that looking at things from the forms as "applications" is wrong? Does HKM lineage teach that the Chum Kiu and Biu Gee forms are completely separate? Does HKM lineage teach that the knives are completely different than the empty hands?

I met HKM only once. I met Hawkins Cheung at the same seminar. It was a long time ago and is all a "swirl" in my head now, since I was so in awe of who was there! :)
 
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guy b.

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Thanks Joy! Please tell us....does HKM lineage teach that the empty hands are derived from the Pole? Does HKM lineage teach that the Tan Sau is only for training the elbow? Does HKM lineage teach that looking at things from the forms as "applications" is wrong? Does HKM lineage teach that the Chum Kiu and Biu Gee forms are completely separate? Does HKM lineage teach that the knives are completely different than the empty hands?

Why would you try to carry argument from one place to another?
 
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guy b.

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I respect WSL.There are good and bad and name droppers in all "lineages".I have been doing Augustine Fong's version of wing chun since 1976. All my shortcomings are mine. I have gone to Ho Kam ming seminars-
have visited with him and taken private lessons with him in Canada. I have met WSL in California and Texas and have rolled with him. I have rolled with Ho kam Ming, WSL, TST, Victor Kan, Hawkins Cheung and my sifu and quite a few people from other lineages. I prefer what I do- why else would I do it?

Ho Kam Ming was as close to IP Man as anyone-but I try not to put down others who learned from IM.
What is characteristic of good HKM wing chun -IMO? You name it-foot work, handwork, precision, timing, control, power ,integrated structure, square bodied balancing,adjustment and more- the whole enchilada. I have some excellent sihings and sisters including Danny Chan. Van Iotti . Carinna, Brian Tufts and others.

Ip Man used to visit Ho Kam Ming's school in Macao and corrected folks there including my sifu.
Ho Kam Ming has had some good students including Augustine Fong, Luis Ming Fai (Macao and HK)
and Kiet Pham(Toronto). Sigung's oldest son and several of his wing chun brothers teach in Macao.
HKM is 90 years old and is basically retired.
.
There are several people who drop HKM's name but they really have not been consistent HKm students- just visitors. Many folks don't know- Hawkins Cheung used to hang around HKM's Macao school.
There was acontest to celebrate the formation of Hong Kong Martial arts association. Tang asked IP Man for fighters- IM directed him to HKM who provided the fighters and they all won. When Thai fighters first came to HK it wasa disaster for wc- but HKM sent fighters in the return engagement and the results were different.
.
HKM is 90 years old and is basically retired.

Thanks for your answer. Would you mind answering a few more questions please?

Can you explain the teaching progression in HKM wing chun and what each stage is aimed at developing?

What do you feel are the main reasons for doing the different drills, e.g. dan chi sau, poon sau, chi sau, lap sau

What is intended to be developed by the various equipment you use, e.g. dummy, weapons

What is the main fighting strategy in HKM wing chun?

Is there anything that you feel is unique to HKM wing chun?

Do you have any good representative footage of HKM wing chun?
 

Vajramusti

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Thanks for your answer. Would you mind answering a few more questions please?

Can you explain the teaching progression in HKM wing chun and what each stage is aimed at developing?

What do you feel are the main reasons for doing the different drills, e.g. dan chi sau, poon sau, chi sau, lap sau

What is intended to be developed by the various equipment you use, e.g. dummy, weapons

What is the main fighting strategy in HKM wing chun?

Is there anything that you feel is unique to HKM wing chun?

Do you have any good representative footage of HKM wing chun?
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No one speaks for Masters Ho and Fong but they themselves. Fong sifu has a website-google- Fong wing chun federation- it has a section on curriculum and also a dictionary of terms.Luis Ming Fai and Kiet Pham have websites of their own. I have an old site at www.tempewingchun.com
Brian Tufts has some videos of wing chun motions and mok jong and biu gee on the net.
you can google those.
 
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KPM

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Why would you try to carry argument from one place to another?

Who's arguing? I'm truly interested. I have great respect for Master Ho. I do believe that he is one of the people that Ip Man "gave a sh1t about" and one of the people that spent a lot of quality time with Ip Man. So if these are things that Master Ho teaches, I truly want to know!
 

geezer

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Some people here on the forum study HKM/Augustine Fong wing chun. This is not a wing chun I have seen before. Can anyone explain what differentiates this wing chun from others (particularly WSL VT), and describe what is particularly good about it please? Any video showing what you mean would be useful.
Thanks for your answer. Would you mind answering a few more questions please?

Can you explain the teaching progression in HKM wing chun and what each stage is aimed at developing?

What do you feel are the main reasons for doing the different drills, e.g. dan chi sau, poon sau, chi sau, lap sau

What is intended to be developed by the various equipment you use, e.g. dummy, weapons

What is the main fighting strategy in HKM wing chun?

Is there anything that you feel is unique to HKM wing chun?

Do you have any good representative footage of HKM wing chun?

Holy moly! A few questions there Guy. Considering how much effort it would take to for Joy adequately address all that, maybe it would be better just to pay for some lessons. :p
 
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geezer

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Who's arguing? I'm truly interested. I have great respect for Master Ho. I do believe that he is one of the people that Ip Man "gave a sh1t about" and one of the people that spent a lot of quality time with Ip Man. So if these are things that Master Ho teaches, I truly want to know!

IMO a fair question, but I can see why Guy spotted it as baiting him into an argument. Honestly folks, sometimes it's best to note your differences and then give it a rest. Another thread just got locked. lets not see that become regular a practice around here!

KPM, might I suggest a PM to Joy on this topic to let people cool off a bit? :)
 

Phobius

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No one speaks for Masters Ho and Fong but they themselves. Fong sifu has a website-google- Fong wing chun federation- it has a section on curriculum and also a dictionary of terms.Luis Ming Fai and Kiet Pham have websites of their own. I have an old site at www.tempewingchun.com
Brian Tufts has some videos of wing chun motions and mok jong and biu gee on the net.
you can google those.

Actually HKM peaks my interest now as well.

I do have one question for you. Whether or not you wish to answer is up to you.

Do you have a favorite video in mind (that you might want to link to me here or privately) that in your view best depicts HKM WC? Not speaking about some "sparring to prove its Worth" but more of a depiction of the essence whether it is a drill, documentary, images, whatnot, of HKM lineage. Just interested to have as a base for researching it further.

Would visit a club but given the crazy distance across seas to closest club would render that a big No for quite some time.
 
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guy b.

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No one speaks for Masters Ho and Fong but they themselves. Fong sifu has a website-google- Fong wing chun federation- it has a section on curriculum and also a dictionary of terms.Luis Ming Fai and Kiet Pham have websites of their own. I have an old site at www.tempewingchun.com
Brian Tufts has some videos of wing chun motions and mok jong and biu gee on the net.
you can google those.

Ok thanks, will have a look.
 
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guy b.

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Holy moly! A few questions there Guy. Considering how much effort it would take to for Joy adequately address all that, maybe it would be better just to pay for some lessons. :p

Those should be one or two word answers I would have thought. No more than a sentence. Should take about 2-5 minutes total?
 

geezer

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Those should be one or two word answers I would have thought. No more than a sentence. Should take about 2-5 minutes total?

OK you're on. Why not take "about 2-5 minutes total" and answer those same six questions with regard to the WSL VT that you practice?
 

LFJ

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Why would you try to carry argument from one place to another?

What did I say in that other thread? Part of his M.O..

Now, regarding HKM WC, it appears jam-sau has also suffered the same fate in their lineage. It has completely disappeared.

The dichotomy between taan elbow and jam elbow is largely what the system makes use of for development of elbow behaviors in free fighting. As most of us know, gaang-sau was added to SNT following one of WSL's fights where jam-sau had failed and YM deciding that it should be introduced sooner than the dummy or Biu-ji form. However, while WSL kept the important jam-sau section, his contemporaries replaced it with the new gaang-sau section.

As a result, jam-sau seems to have disappeared entirely from their thinking, and this means that taan-sau no longer has an opposing jam-sau to work with, which has led to various application ideas for the taan-sau shape which have nothing to do with the original function in training. Their focus has shifted away from the elbow, forward to the wrist, and the wrist is now used as they stick, feel, and redirect with one hand and strike with the other. This fundamentally changes the way the system works, removing simultaneous attack and defense functions in a single limb, fully castrating the "cut the way" strategy, and ultimately resulting in a far less efficient method.

This is a major difference between WSL's VT and that of his contemporaries, and it seems HKM lineage is no exception.

Two videos below show Lui Ming Fai demonstrating daan-chi-sau, and we can see how his elbow pops out while his wrist drops to the level of the navel to redirect the incoming strike. In WSLVT, the jam elbow comes in and forward to a punching position with hip connection and without dropping the wrist, then punches. It's broken up first to teach the elbow. Later, it turns into a single action. Taan and jam elbows are further developed in pun-sau too, but this should be the first stage of their interaction... and yet it's missing.
Right side:
Left side:

In the last video, we can see how not only in their SNT form is the jam-sau section missing, but throughout the form there is no jam elbow at all. A result of this is then seen in their seung-ma / teui-ma drill where they are not using the jam elbow because their focus is on their wrists. This means they aren't making the proper angle and their footwork is wrong, just moving back in a straight line.

With no jam-sau, the entire system falls apart! Nothing fits together in coherent stages for development. Lonely taan-sau, left to imagination, gets treated as a fighting technique. And the entire strategy is lost and replaced with sticky wrists.

This is one simple way to know if a system is broken in a YM lineage. Check if they are missing jam-sau from the very beginning! If so, it pretty well guarantees they are going to have sticky wrists and fight with taan-sau.
 
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guy b.

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OK you're on. Why not take "about 2-5 minutes total" and answer those same six questions with regard to the WSL VT that you practice?

Because this thread is about Ho Kam Ming wing chun and most people (including yourself) are telling me you have heard enough about WSL VT?
 
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guy b.

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What did I say in that other thread? Part of his M.O.

I hope not

Now, regarding HKM WC, it appears jam-sau has also suffered the same fate in their lineage. It has completely disappeared.

The dichotomy between taan elbow and jam elbow is largely what the system makes use of for development of elbow behaviors in free fighting. As most of us know, gaang-sau was added to SNT following one of WSL's fights where jam-sau had failed and YM deciding that it should be introduced sooner than the dummy or Biu-ji form. However, while WSL kept the important jam-sau section, his contemporaries replaced it with the new gaang-sau section.

As a result, jam-sau seems to have disappeared entirely from their thinking, and this means that taan-sau no longer has an opposing jam-sau to work with, which has led to various application ideas for the taan-sau shape which have nothing to do with the original function in training. Their focus has shifted away from the elbow, forward to the wrist, and the wrist is now used as they stick, feel, and redirect with one hand and strike with the other. This fundamentally changes the way the system works, removing simultaneous attack and defense functions in a single limb, fully castrating the "cut the way" strategy, and ultimately resulting in a far less efficient method.

Hmm, it does appear that jam sau is missing from these clips. Does anyone have any other clips of HKM line SNT or Dan Chi?

In terms of WSL VT missing jam sau would be as you describe above and the system would fail to function properly if at all. It is possible that HKM doesn't have the jam sau for a particular reason though, and that the system maintains coherence without it. If so then it would be great if someone from that line would explain how this works?

In the last video, we can see how not only in their SNT form is the jam-sau section missing, but throughout the form there is no jam elbow at all. A result of this is then seen in their seung-ma / teui-ma drill where they are not using the jam elbow because their focus is on their wrists. This means they aren't making the proper angle and their footwork is wrong, just moving back in a straight line.

In terms of WSL VT I agree with this analysis. Again perhaps HKM wing chun works in a different way?
 

Phobius

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What did I say in that other thread? Part of his M.O..

Now, regarding HKM WC, it appears jam-sau has also suffered the same fate in their lineage. It has completely disappeared.

Thanks for descriptive post about what you consider to be strength in WSLVT and what you seek for in all arts.

Now as for the meaning of your comments. There are some differences introduced by WSL in Dan Chi Sao such as larger distance and higher aim compared to what I see with your videos that you linked. To be honest the differences between the two seem so great to me that neither could be considered the same drills.

I like the changes WSL did to Dan Chi Sao, as mentioned by David Peterson,

As for jam sao I agree it is removed from SLT from all but WSLVT, YM decided this. WSL brought it back to his own lineage if I dont missunderstand history completely. The problem I see with some teachers (not lineage specific) is that they think it better to start out slow by first doing SLT before moving on to the next form. By the time the student gets to touch the dummy and footwork he has already become too stiff in his ways. This is my opinion only.

But do not be so quick to judge. We cant know that jam sao is removed from these lineages by watching YouTube.
 

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