Three Seeds of Wing Chun

KPM

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Did anyone learn this concept in their lineage? So far I have seen it in Ho Kam Ming/Augustine Fong lineage, Wong Shun Leung lineage, and Lee Shing lineage (maybe from Lok Yiu?).

 

hunschuld

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Directly CST and Yip Ching, indirectly Jiu Wan. Without consulting my notes I can't remember if Yip Chun taught it or Moy Yat. In Lo Kwai its taught as part of the elbow concept.

Nice clear direct explanation. You would be a good teacher
 

Marnetmar

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I think one clue is that tan and bong are somewhat mechanically opposite of each other, almost as if they were the same technique performed forwards and backwards in time (this would be literally true if you switched a regular tan out for a sinking tan or "tun sau"). The question then would be where fuk sau comes into the picture. Could one conceivably argue for it being an intermediate between the two?

In any case, all three are spiraling motions, so I think that is where you'd begin if you wanted to crack the riddle.
 
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KPM

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I think one clue is that tan and bong are somewhat mechanically opposite of each other, almost as if they were the same technique performed forwards and backwards in time (this would be literally true if you switched a regular tan out for a sinking tan or "tun sau"). The question then would be where fuk sau comes into the picture. Could one conceivably argue for it being an intermediate between the two?

In any case, all three are spiraling motions, so I think that is where you'd begin if you wanted to crack the riddle.

Do you actually watch my video??
 

Callen

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We often talk about the "detachable hand" when referencing the idea of Fuk, reinforcing the concept that any tool (hand) can be re-attached (applied) to the same elbow principals that are consistently trained throughout the entire system. I'm impressed KPM, that's very WSLVT of you ;)
 
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geezer

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Do you actually watch my video??

I did. And I found your analysis interesting.
In the original branch of the Yip Man lineage I studied (WT), we also referred to tan, bong and fook-sau as the "three seeds" of Wing Chun. But the concept wasn't pursued and dealt with in depth. We had other ways of viewing and understanding our techniques.

One important thing about that branch of WC is that bong, tan and fook all borrow your opponent's force.... i.e. you don't deliberately throw out a tan or bong, rather you throw out a strike. If you encounter superior force coming in from your opponent and crossing your bridge, then their attack bends or compresses your arm into tan, bong, fook, etc.

According to this idea of using your opponent's energy to form and power your defense:

-Tan happens when your bridge intercepts energy coming wide of center. It receives and spreads the energy aside to the same side (or thumb-side) of the body.

-Bong happens when energy crosses your bridge, angling across your body and rolling your wrist over and bowing your arm into bong-sau ...which guides the energy to the opposite side of the body.

-Fook-sau, also referred to as "bridge-on arm" or "controlling-hand", is more neutral as it can absorb and direct incoming force downward (jum or jut-sau) or re-direct it to either side. Your arm sinks into jum to re-direct downward or across to the inside, or else scooping into an elbow-up huen or kau-sau to re-direct the force to the outside.

We use all of the above together with turning and steps in dan-chi and poon-sau, fleshing out these "seeds" into the myriad of techniques that make up the Wing Chun repertoire. And I've become especially focused on how you can apply this in dan-chi of late since injuring my left shoulder last year and becoming essentially a "one-armed swordsman" as my old sifu used to say.

When I do use both arms, I must be super soft as any force whatsoever can cause considerable pain in my left shoulder which can last for days. But, at the very least, I am becoming much softer and more attuned to incoming energies since "powering through" is no longer an option.

On the other hand, the way you look at these "seeds" regarding elbow position provides another dimension that I find useful. For example, in dan-chi, from a fook-sau position, when you receive a strong palm the typical response in my lineage is to neutralize it with converting fook to jum and absorbing the force by sinking the elbow to softly re-direct the incoming attack downward (we do not snap the wrist downward with a sharp jut-sau as I have seen some members of the Augustine Fong branch do).

However, if our partner steps in and attacks deeply with the force of his whole body, we use their force to turn our body and further deflect their attack across to the inside with our jum, or if our partner drives in with pressure to the outside to prevent or resist our turn, we convert our fook to huen/kau sau and turn with his energy to the outside, guiding their incoming force wide of our body. ....Interestingly, this puts our arm in an elbow-up position that you would place in the bong-sau family ...even though as "a controlling" movement, I would class it together with fook sau.

So which understanding of these "seeds" is right?

-Well, both are wrong, especially if someone claims that their definition accounts for every situation and explains the whole WC system! Anyway, that's where my head's at these days. I'm much more interested in exploring diverse ideas that actually advance my personal understanding than building an absolute system of rules leading to another WC dogma. God knows we've had enough of those guys in WC ...and on this forum!

So, to sum up: Thanks for sharing your ideas. You've given me even more to think about and explore. :)
 

geezer

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We often talk about the "detachable hand" when referencing the idea of Fuk, reinforcing the concept that any tool (hand) can be re-attached (applied) to the same elbow principals that are consistently trained throughout the entire system. I'm impressed KPM, that's very WSLVT of you ;)

Detachable hands? Like this?
127165_0.jpg
 

geezer

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We often talk about the "detachable hand" when referencing the idea of Fuk, reinforcing the concept that any tool (hand) can be re-attached (applied) to the same elbow principals that are consistently trained throughout the entire system. I'm impressed KPM, that's very WSLVT of you ;)

OK spoofing aside... I agree with your point. I don't think that's exclusive to WSL WC ...or even to WC in general. If you have proper structure, position and energy, etc. the "tool" at the end of your arm is interchangeable according to the situation.
 

wckf92

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Did anyone learn this concept in their lineage? So far I have seen it in Ho Kam Ming/Augustine Fong lineage, Wong Shun Leung lineage, and Lee Shing lineage (maybe from Lok Yiu?).


To me and my way of thinking...when you attack (or defend) your basically attempting to Tan (wedge/spread) or Bong (tie up/jam) or Fook (subdue/control). Not any specific shape per se, just the idea behind the shapes.
 

stanly stud

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asking because i am a Brit living in Germany & it織s what most do here. EWTO
 

stanly stud

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most people worry about the roots or is this the real yip man wing chun/ Ving tsun / Wing tsun....etc more important is does it work?
 
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KPM

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I

-Well, both are wrong, especially if someone claims that their definition accounts for every situation and explains the whole WC system!

True! I recognize that analogies like this will only take you so far and all break down at some point. But after thinking about it for awhile now, what I came up with seems the most internally consistent....at least to me! ;)
 
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KPM

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has anyone here trained in the Leung Ting system

--See geezer's post #6 above.
 
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