Here I go with another poorly digested ramble. I was talking to some older high ranking martial artists and it occurred to me that a couple of these individuals reached their high level black-belt ranks through years of practice, teaching and accumulating knowledge and through dedicated service to their associations, but not buy being especially good at fighting. In fact the best fighters I know are mostly at least 30 years younger than these guys, have a lot of fighting experience but do not have especially high ranks in whatever arts they've trained. On the other hand, of course there are older high ranking individuals who are awesome fighters. My question is this, "How common is it to find older, high ranking (3rd, 4th, 5th degree or higher) black-belts who may really know their stuff, but are not particularly good fighters?" and, "Does this even matter?"
High ranked blackbelts who don't fight well...
- Thread starter geezer
- Start date
Alot of people get stiff with age. Medical conditions come into play and time away from the art for family. I mean you could have a 5th dan whos very very good but stops in the art at 30 due to family/medical etc. He comes back at 50. Im not going to expect him to flip through the air and kick me in the face.
Flying Crane
Sr. Grandmaster
what is your yardstick for measuring someone's ability to fight?
It is very possible today, in many parts of our society, to go thru an entire lifetime without ever needing to defend oneself. In this case, the skills may never be truly tested, because the need never arises. But that lack of evidence only means that one's ability hasn't been proven one way or the other. Maybe he can fight, maybe he cannot. A lack of evidence doesn't automatically mean that he CANNOT fight, or cannot fight well.
It is very possible today, in many parts of our society, to go thru an entire lifetime without ever needing to defend oneself. In this case, the skills may never be truly tested, because the need never arises. But that lack of evidence only means that one's ability hasn't been proven one way or the other. Maybe he can fight, maybe he cannot. A lack of evidence doesn't automatically mean that he CANNOT fight, or cannot fight well.
kenpofighter
Green Belt
I think that if a 5th degree black belt learned his basics well to start with that (just about no matter) how old or crippled he gets, he still should be able to properly defend himself. Especially if he is still teaching and training. And of course some people may be a little bit more of a natural fighter than others, but if a high ranked black belt can't hold his show in a fight than he probably should not have ever been promoted to 1st black. We all should strive to be able to do, as much as we know.
True enough, and the individuals I had in mind are very skilled at self defense... you know, "Old age and trickery overcomes youth..." etc. However, by their own admission, they wouldn't want to go head to head with a strong young fighter. And, if you've never been really tested in life or death combat, your abilites remain unknown. I, for one, am thankful that I've never been so tested...so I really don't even know about myself and how I'd react in a really bad situation.
I wouldn't want to go head to head with a strong young fighter or anyone else. I could fight before I started training, so that isn't the issue, it's a matter of understanding what happens in a fight and not wanting any part of it, win or lose.
Flying Crane
Sr. Grandmaster
again, what is the yardstick that you use to measure this ability?
BLACK LION
Black Belt
anyone with money and a little time can be a black belt.... there are 9 year olds with black belts.... it is definately an accomplishment, one that I have not made myself but the only belt my principles provide me is hanging from the local uniform shop leather rack....
I have known some extremely well trained black belts and I have beaten some...I have known some extremely poor trained black belts and have beaten some as well....
I have also know some super extremely well trained fighter with numerous black belts that have been stabbed or shot to death...
It is my feeling that the individual themself is responsible for obtaining adequate skill to combat the times we face today.... instead most find themselves in a fantasy world with rules and rewards that does not exist beyond the studio walls.....
I also think that the much older black belts realize that all that fancy dancy business is not effective in real combat and therefore have a more laid back demeanor.....allot of them have grown comfortable going thru life uncontested....
pain is a factor nerve damage from all the breaking and throwing....there are several factors that would impede somone of age... but you can still stick an arthritic finger in someones eyes...
I have known some extremely well trained black belts and I have beaten some...I have known some extremely poor trained black belts and have beaten some as well....
I have also know some super extremely well trained fighter with numerous black belts that have been stabbed or shot to death...
It is my feeling that the individual themself is responsible for obtaining adequate skill to combat the times we face today.... instead most find themselves in a fantasy world with rules and rewards that does not exist beyond the studio walls.....
I also think that the much older black belts realize that all that fancy dancy business is not effective in real combat and therefore have a more laid back demeanor.....allot of them have grown comfortable going thru life uncontested....
pain is a factor nerve damage from all the breaking and throwing....there are several factors that would impede somone of age... but you can still stick an arthritic finger in someones eyes...
bowser666
2nd Black Belt
Well it is a tough call but there is a saying that a Old MA-ist can easily kill a younger fighter, but can;t go toe to toe in a fight with them. With age comes wisdom , and the Macho young blood runs thin and the desire to fight and solve things physically diminishes. Older wiser folks tend to solve things mentally. Just my $.02 . I know , at 33 years old, I don't look at situations the same way I did when I was 21.
Bodhisattva
Blue Belt
The fact that there are "black belts who can't fight" is one of the funniest things ever.
what is your definition of not being able to fight? A 55 year old black belt with arthritis in his hips and knees not being able to go 4 rounds against a 21 year old? Or the same 55 year old being able to throw an elbow to the throat of an attacker? To the younger folks that feel the older folks can't fight - your time is coming 
Like others I have to ask what definition are we talking. If I stepped into a ring going toe to toe with an Olympic elete then my *** is kicked, but if that Olympic elite steps into my relm I am pretty dam sure he is going to hurt more than I. Elbow, knee's and goin shots plus are the different locks and joints. He could only imagine what will be hurting the next day.
My Blackbelt training has one goal: escape, or create an opportunity for others to escape. I do not train to "fight." I train to survive and stay whole while exiting a bad situation.
How many testosterone-fueled young black belts are actually capable of fighting that way? How many sport-oriented fighters train for stunning their opponent long enough to go hide in the crowd? (That would make for an interesting match, eh?) Again, what's the goal of Black belt?
How many testosterone-fueled young black belts are actually capable of fighting that way? How many sport-oriented fighters train for stunning their opponent long enough to go hide in the crowd? (That would make for an interesting match, eh?) Again, what's the goal of Black belt?
Older? How old is older? 40? 45? 50? 55? 60? 65? 70? ..., .
If they never learned how to be aggressive fighters but they could produce people who were trained well and could fight should not that skill set be recognized?
I know it would be great if with each rank we could float an inch or foot higher off the ground or deflect that many bullets in the air. (* The original poster made no such claim this is just me rambling *) Then there would be this mystical way to measure a skill. If we had fights to the death to get rank and to get promotion and recognition, then we might et what happened in different cultures where many good fighters both died or were crippled proving their worth.
What is the meaning of the rank to you or to the person who has earned it.
What is the meaning of being a good fighter? Weapons as well as empty hands and multiple opponents?
There will always be a different point of view to judge people by. They are not the best fighter they are not the best teachers, they are too old, they are too young, they are skinny they are too fat / over weight, you name it.
I know I have had to fight a lot less over the years. I know that my skill set has increased over the years as well. I know I cannot roll for five five minute rounds with a 20 year old that runs marathons and scuba dives. So, I have to be smarter and use my timing and the skill set I have to win my bouts, and training. This does not mean I do not get tapped out or do not get hit or have bruises. It means I use my skill set over time to try to limit my exposure. I guess one could say I use my intelligence or brain or knowledge to stay even or ahead. Does it make be a better fighter though? I would say no. When I was 20 and did not care about being hurt and healed faster and laughed at the pain, it made me a better fighter. Was I the most skilled fighter? I would say no. I had fights before training began and after, and I would say I knew how to survive including being able to run away when out gunned or out manned. But when in those physical situations then I would say I was a better fighter as my attitude of not caring made it hard to scare me or to intimidate me. Today, I will defend myself but I know all about the pain and the issues with courts and know that I do not want to repeat those experiences if I do not have too.
Now that that has been said, I agree there are always those silly *** people out there who have high rank and cannot teach and cannot fight and cannot walk out of a room when given the chance. I know this frustrates me sometimes, so I understand the questions about skill sets and looking the part and being in condition and being or not being as the case may be.
Deaf Smith
Master of Arts
While back I read about Hee Il Cho, and in the article he was asked about the older grand masters.
He said that when he was younger he did not repect the older masters because they could not do the fancy jumping kicks like he could. Well, he said that time passed by and now as he is older, he finds he can't do those kicks anymore!
Many people have the belief that old grand masters, like Yoda in Star Wars, can whip all the younger bucks. A few maybe can. But I hate to say this, they are human, like everyone else and most see their skills deteriorate over time.
That's life.
Repect does not come from whom you can beat up at any given moment. It comes from having prevailed over many a trial and maybe learned a few things in the process. Things you can pass on.
Deaf
He said that when he was younger he did not repect the older masters because they could not do the fancy jumping kicks like he could. Well, he said that time passed by and now as he is older, he finds he can't do those kicks anymore!
Many people have the belief that old grand masters, like Yoda in Star Wars, can whip all the younger bucks. A few maybe can. But I hate to say this, they are human, like everyone else and most see their skills deteriorate over time.
That's life.
Repect does not come from whom you can beat up at any given moment. It comes from having prevailed over many a trial and maybe learned a few things in the process. Things you can pass on.
Deaf
GuroJason
Yellow Belt
All "Black Belt" means is that you've become proficient with the basics of the art, and are ready to begin the real training. I don't think Black Belt was ever meant to be something to be "feared," but just a testament to how much time and training you have put in. It's a ranking system put together for the benefit of the instructor, to let him know what he can teach a student based on the rank he's wearing.
As far as being feared, I think we've invented that part. As far as fighting goes, that depends on the training. If a Lakan Isa in Senkotiros Arnis or another Filipino art goes up against a Shodan in Shotokan or Kobujutsu or whatever other art in a fight to the death, the Arnis player may have a better chance of survival because training revolves around survival first and foremost. The Filipino arts come from a country where it is still necessary to use the arts for survival. If an eskrimador fights someone who only knows kata, without proper emphasis and training on bunkai, he'll likely mop the floor with him. But, as has been said before, it's very difficult to make generalizations in these situations because the individuality of each fighter varies so greatly.
I'm not saying that there's anything wrong with Shotokan or Kobujutsu or any other art. Actually, I have rank in traditional Okinawan Kenpo and Kobujutsu, and I believe it's a very powerful and balanced system. But if the "jutsu" fades into "do" and the combative nature of the art is lost, as sometimes happens, then the practitioner becomes more of an athlete than a real-world fighter.
As far as being feared, I think we've invented that part. As far as fighting goes, that depends on the training. If a Lakan Isa in Senkotiros Arnis or another Filipino art goes up against a Shodan in Shotokan or Kobujutsu or whatever other art in a fight to the death, the Arnis player may have a better chance of survival because training revolves around survival first and foremost. The Filipino arts come from a country where it is still necessary to use the arts for survival. If an eskrimador fights someone who only knows kata, without proper emphasis and training on bunkai, he'll likely mop the floor with him. But, as has been said before, it's very difficult to make generalizations in these situations because the individuality of each fighter varies so greatly.
I'm not saying that there's anything wrong with Shotokan or Kobujutsu or any other art. Actually, I have rank in traditional Okinawan Kenpo and Kobujutsu, and I believe it's a very powerful and balanced system. But if the "jutsu" fades into "do" and the combative nature of the art is lost, as sometimes happens, then the practitioner becomes more of an athlete than a real-world fighter.
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GuroJason
Yellow Belt
If my statements above are incorrect or inaccurate, please correct me. I could have chosen any 2 arts, but the point I was trying to make was that whether one person will do well in a survival-type fighting situation depends more on whether his/her training focuses on real fighting or just forms. Forms are a great source of information and technique, but if the application of the forms isn't put to the test regularly, then the practitioner loses the self-protection aspect that they were originally intended for.
If by fight, you mean competing in a ring, I'll use WTF Taekwondo as an example. Since fighters are eligible only between 1st and 3rd Dan, anyone 4th dan and above has no need to be a great fighter since they are not eligible to compete. It doesn't mean they can't train others effectively, but master instructors have no need to be great tournament fighters.
If by fight you mean self defense or street defense, high ranking black belts undoubtable have tricks up their sleeves that would make you shudder and you underestimate them at your own risk.
A tournament fighter is like the visible light section of the spectrum-very narrow. A high ranking master is everything else.
If by fight you mean self defense or street defense, high ranking black belts undoubtable have tricks up their sleeves that would make you shudder and you underestimate them at your own risk.
A tournament fighter is like the visible light section of the spectrum-very narrow. A high ranking master is everything else.
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