Some instructors place a really high emphasis in katas and use katas as the main factor for promotion. They do of course require more than good katas to promote but about 80 percent of promotion depends on how good you are with katas. I know katas are good and important and do make up a big portion of arts such as Karate but should such an emphasis be placed on them?
High emphasis on katas
- Thread starter PhotonGuy
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Yes.
It like all types of testing is standardized. It is the execution of basic techniques while performing transitions of movement in an established routine. As the complexity of katas increases, the learner is able to show mastery of basic techniques.
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That depends what you mean by them using them as the primary factor for promotion. If it is the main thing actually tested, it may well be that the instructor is observing general ability and "readiness" during class, and using the kata as a test under stress. (I'll point out that there's a danger in this if potential new instructors aren't taught this approach explicitly, as they may not realize the untested observations, and may become instructors who use ONLY the kata as a determinant of readiness.)
Kickboxer101
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There's no such thing as should be, every school is different and there's no right or wrong just opinions. Some people like kata more than others if you don't like it don't train at a school like that
The guy in the following clip has 18-2 full contact Sanda fights record under his belt. Last time his form competition score was 7.45 (range from 7.0 to 8.0). His bad form did not affect his fighting ability at all.
I truly don't believe
- good form -> good fighting ability, or
- good fighting ability -> good form.
You use
1. partner drills to "develop" skill.
2. sparring/wrestling to "test" skill.
3. equipment training to "enhance" skill.
4. solo drills/form to "polish" skill.
IMO, 1 > 2 > 3 > 4
You have to "develop" your MA skill first before you can "test", "enhance", and "polish" it. Also "solo" training is just "partner training without partner".
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For grappling (the only place I've used forms), kata can be useful for memorizing sequences, "programming" sets of movements into muscle memory so they become automatic more quickly. For most students, I'd still put those at that 4th position, though I've had students who had a hard time transitioning from a "step-by-step" approach to useful application. The forms are more useful to them, sometimes more useful than equipment training.
Flying Crane
Sr. Grandmaster
Geezuz, how many times do we need to have this discussion?
Look, kata/forms/poomsae are a tool for training. Some systems use them a lot, some use them a little, some do not use them at all.
When properly understood and properly trained, they are a very useful training tool. When not properly understood or trained, they are a waste of time.
You do not need forms to become a skilled fighter. But if you train in a system that relies heavily on forms, then expect to spend a lot of time training them. If you don't like that, then go train something else that does not use forms.
You don't have to like them, and you don't need to train in a system that uses them and you don't need to apologize for that or feel like you need approval to make that decision.
But for #### sake, make the god-damned decision for your own self, and be done with it. There is no debate here.
Look, kata/forms/poomsae are a tool for training. Some systems use them a lot, some use them a little, some do not use them at all.
When properly understood and properly trained, they are a very useful training tool. When not properly understood or trained, they are a waste of time.
You do not need forms to become a skilled fighter. But if you train in a system that relies heavily on forms, then expect to spend a lot of time training them. If you don't like that, then go train something else that does not use forms.
You don't have to like them, and you don't need to train in a system that uses them and you don't need to apologize for that or feel like you need approval to make that decision.
But for #### sake, make the god-damned decision for your own self, and be done with it. There is no debate here.
I prefer to transfer "useful application" into "step-by-step approach". The advantage of this approach are:
- I can use this approach to create many new forms.
- Those "useful application" doesn't have to come from my primary MA style.
- ...
The form can be used to train at home when training partner is not available. I have learned a good number of forms in my life. The only form that I still train is the one that I had created from application. Sadly to say that I have just
- changed all my jumping kicks into non-jumping kicks.
- reduced 84 moves form into 58 moves form.
- 6 lines into 4 lines.
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You may prefer that, but most students seem to process complex movements the other way. I have one now who is a great example of this. When he is given a full sequence of motions (say, a throw), he walks through it step by step. Forms give him a chance to work on the movements in flow, without worrying so much about whether he has the person's wrist is in the right position (something he stops to check every time). I've just started him on the long form that includes those techniques, with the instruction that he is to focus on the flow, rather than precision or even correctness. I'll nudge his forms into the right movement and position slowly, letting him keep the flow. That work will help him get past the step-by-step.
I love the "good kata doesn't guarantee good fighting" argument. It's true of course, but it relies on the false assumption that all martial arts training is for learning to fight. Fighting is a valid goal, but there are many others, just as valid.
MI_martialist
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If the instructor does not have a proper understanding of use of kata, then they are a waste of time and simply an empty dance performance. If the instructor has sequenced properly, and kata are actually ENBU of martial applications and a real battle, then they are not a waste of time at all.
I do not believe beginners should EVER DO SOLO TRAINING if it can be avoided. Of course, the primary goal of "martial arts" is the ability to fight; otherwise, it should be called "arts martial". That way the art and other goals can be primary.
Understand that this does not mean that anyone and everyone is to be instructed. There must be a filtering process that begins immediately, and even before the prospective student inquires...that profiling starts with how documents, posts, etc., are worded, designed, etc...
I do not believe beginners should EVER DO SOLO TRAINING if it can be avoided. Of course, the primary goal of "martial arts" is the ability to fight; otherwise, it should be called "arts martial". That way the art and other goals can be primary.
Understand that this does not mean that anyone and everyone is to be instructed. There must be a filtering process that begins immediately, and even before the prospective student inquires...that profiling starts with how documents, posts, etc., are worded, designed, etc...
This is why you may want to teach the beginner with separate arm movement and leg movement.
The SC basic form 1 to 4 contains only the hand movement.
The SC basic form 5 to 6 contain only the leg movement.
The SC basic form 7 to ... contain both hand and leg movement.
For that reason, I altered the Classical form of the first technique they get. The form I use has no leg movement, at all.
Sometime I have totally forgot that beginners may have difficult time to learn a complex move. One stupid method is to have 2 students as 1 group. One tries to learn the arm movement, the other tries to learn the leg movement. Both then exchange their learning.
I'm trying to picture that. I'm doing a very bad job (as are the students I'm imagining).
On kata performance in consideration of promotion.
Personally, I use competence in the katas as the baseline for evaluating if someone is getting ready for promotion. I require the kata to be performed with a decree of skill & competence commensurate with the rank to which the person "has," not the rank to which they are being promoted. My most recent instructor gave me that insight, saying "the person never is actually deserving by skill of the promotion, the promotion is earned through effort and desire for it." It's an interesting way to approach promotion standards and I've adopted it. it means that right about the middle point of the time in grade at a specific rank, the person actually is skill-deserving of the rank they are wearing. But, I digress.
I also, as the student progresses, slide more interest of mine into other of their aspects of skill, i.e. their self-defense acumen, aability to think through a physical problem in which they've been put, etc. But, this is done during normal class time, not on promotion day. Promotion day is almost 100% kata, perhaps a self-defense demo, but that's it. I am nearly 100% certain of the person's "promotability" prior tot he demo, which is why they are being promoted.
Note: this is WAY off board from my original Korean TKD/HKD roots' method!
Personally, I use competence in the katas as the baseline for evaluating if someone is getting ready for promotion. I require the kata to be performed with a decree of skill & competence commensurate with the rank to which the person "has," not the rank to which they are being promoted. My most recent instructor gave me that insight, saying "the person never is actually deserving by skill of the promotion, the promotion is earned through effort and desire for it." It's an interesting way to approach promotion standards and I've adopted it. it means that right about the middle point of the time in grade at a specific rank, the person actually is skill-deserving of the rank they are wearing. But, I digress.
I also, as the student progresses, slide more interest of mine into other of their aspects of skill, i.e. their self-defense acumen, aability to think through a physical problem in which they've been put, etc. But, this is done during normal class time, not on promotion day. Promotion day is almost 100% kata, perhaps a self-defense demo, but that's it. I am nearly 100% certain of the person's "promotability" prior tot he demo, which is why they are being promoted.
Note: this is WAY off board from my original Korean TKD/HKD roots' method!
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Why would anyone do it like that? As you say...stoopid!
Fighting as a goal I would have issues with that. Fighting isn't a goal, just a response.
