Have you ever been visited by Kukkiwon?

[StudentCarl]

Seems to me that the way to go about this is with a published, progressive, slow implementation and a widely published set of specific standards:

1. Work from high dans downward, with successive levels added over a period of time. For example, 8th dans might be required to meet the standard by 2012, 7th dans by 2013, 6th by 2014, etc. This not only gives time to be successful, but gets leaders to lead before teaching, and sets up leadership by example.

2. I'm still at gup level, and am not clear what is the exact published standard (if there is one). I'd like to see something along the lines of the book I have 'The Explanation of Taekwondo Poomsae' (with the translation cleaned up). Getting everybody on the same page first requires that there be a same page that we can all look at!

3. Is the standard to be only performance of poomsae?

4. The other key is communicating why it is in the interest of grandmasters, masters, and schools to be onboard with this. Successful unity of effort requires unity of purpose. I would be interested to know if this is simply a top-down initiative or whether any effort has been made to gauge support for this. If you can develop a solid core of support, the fence-sitters are more likely to conform than if it's just imposed.

 

[puunui]

Makes sense to me. As a consumer, certification would be more valuable and appealing to me if it meant enforcement of a tightly defined curriculum along with high standards.

Is that how you see your dan certification, from the eyes of a consumer, something that you pay for and purchase?

 

[troubleenuf]

Is that how you see your dan certification, from the eyes of a consumer, something that you pay for and purchase?

How do you see it?

 

[dancingalone]

Is that how you see your dan certification, from the eyes of a consumer, something that you pay for and purchase?

Rightly or wrongly, that is how I see certification as offered by large martial arts organizations. I see so often the arguments made here about transferability and acceptance, etc., for KKW certification. Those are very much consumer-oriented benefits.

It is only when you talk about individual things such as recognition in your instructor's eyes, that the focus turns to something else... And then we wouldn't be talking about transferability or acceptance, would we?

But if you're asking me on a personal level, I don't really value 'certification' the same way I think most people on the TKD forum do. My karate dan certification is a handwritten document in Japanese (perhaps even the Okinawan language/dialect) by my teacher. It merely states that I have been given a certain status by him. It would mean nothing to anyone else outside the circles my teacher is associated with, yet I treasure it above almost anything else I own.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

Rightly or wrongly, that is how I see certification as offered by large martial arts organizations. I see so often the arguments made here about transferability and acceptance, etc., for KKW certification. Those are very much consumer-oriented benefits.

It is only when you talk about individual things such as recognition in your instructor's eyes, that the focus turns to something else... And then we wouldn't be talking about transferability or acceptance, would we?

But if you're asking me on a personal level, I don't really value 'certification' the same way I think most people on the TKD forum do. My karate dan certification is a handwritten document in Japanese (perhaps even the Okinawan language/dialect) by my teacher. It merely states that I have been given a certain status by him. It would mean nothing to anyone else outside the circles my teacher is associated with, yet I treasure it above almost anything else I own.

I have to agree with all of that. A certification is a personal thing. I too, have a handwritten pice of paper as my only certification from my karate days, and to be honest I believe most people would laugh if they saw it compared to some of the 'over the top' certs that get handed out these days, but to me it is invaluable, it was a good school , with very high standards and to me that piece of paper is worth its weight in gold despite the fact it would mean nothing to anybody else.

 

[Archtkd]

Makes sense to me. As a consumer, certification would be more valuable and appealing to me if it meant enforcement of a tightly defined curriculum along with high standards.

Sounds logical, but the problem is that the biggest consumer Taekwondo providers don't give a hoot about the Kukkiwon and will never agree to any policing by the organization. Also many consumers don't seem to care about standards. Here in the Show Me State, for example, many big dojangs -- including and maybe even particularly those owned by Korean/Korean American GMs and Masters originally certified by the Kukkiwon -- no longer recommend Kukkiwon certificates for their students.

 

[Archtkd]

The thing to understand about President Kang is that he comes from and leads the smallest Kwan by far of the original five. There are literally thousands of dojang in the Seoul area alone; Song Moo Kwan has 16.

The issue of who belongs to what Kwan and Kukkiwon leadership has come up in other posts and it sounds as though you are saying GM Kang's ability to lead the Kukkiwon is hindered by his Kwan leadership experience. Maybe I'm reading that wrong, but are you suggesting that Kwans and their size still matters, even though you are a strong advocate of Kukki Taekwondo unification?

Along those lines can there really be an untainted Kukkiwon leader today, who has broad support, especially here in the U.S? Also, who, in your opinion, would have been the most suitable choice for president of the organization after GM Un Young Kim. Uhm Woon Kyu, the former head of your Chung Do Kwan, the most active Kwan today, didn't make headway. Seung Wan Lee, the head of the Jidokwan, another big kwan, couldn't survive the brutal politics of the Kukkiwon and Korea in general.

 

[puunui]

How do you see it?

I've already said numerous times.

 

[puunui]

The issue of who belongs to what Kwan and Kukkiwon leadership has come up in other posts and it sounds as though you are saying GM Kang's ability to lead the Kukkiwon is hindered by his Kwan leadership experience.

Kwan leadership or just the mentality and attitude of his particular kwan. It's a small kwan used to doing things differently than a larger kwan.

Maybe I'm reading that wrong, but are you suggesting that Kwans and their size still matters, even though you are a strong advocate of Kukki Taekwondo unification?

Kwan membership is relevant at President Kang's level, since he grew up in a Kwan environment and it is a part of this thinking. People of his generation naturally see another of the same or higher level as coming from this or that kwan, and all that goes with that.

Along those lines can there really be an untainted Kukkiwon leader today, who has broad support, especially here in the U.S?

I don't know what you mean by "untainted".

Also, who, in your opinion, would have been the most suitable choice for president of the organization after GM Un Young Kim.

I would have liked to have seen GM LEE Seung Wan given the opportunity to carry out his vision. I think there is a chance that that might still happen.

Uhm Woon Kyu, the former head of your Chung Do Kwan, the most active Kwan today, didn't make headway.

GM UHM Woon Kyu made LOTS of headway. In fact, he has been the primary at the Kukkiwon since almost the very beginning. We talk about the big three leaders, but actually it was the big two: GM Uhm and GM LEE Chong Woo. How Dr. Kim did it was to leave the Taekwondo parts to Taekwondoin; for the Kukkiwon GM Uhm took the lead while at the WTF, GM LEE Chong Woo took the lead. Make sense, since GM Uhm and the Chung Do Kwan (through GM LEE Won Kuk) had a primary interest in the development of poomsae, and the Jidokwan was the leader in kyorugi. So you statement about GM Uhm is incorrect. The reason why GM Uhm was the natural successor for Dr. Kim at the Kukkiwon was because he was doing the job all these years anyway. That's why no one questioned or was surprised when he became the second Kukkiwon president.

Seung Wan Lee, the head of the Jidokwan, another big kwan, couldn't survive the brutal politics of the Kukkiwon and Korea in general.

GM Lee has the majority support of Taekwondoin; however, he advocated that the Kukkiwon remain independent of Korean government control, for a variety of reasons, and that is the real reason why they removed him.

 

[puunui]

Sounds logical, but the problem is that the biggest consumer Taekwondo providers don't give a hoot about the Kukkiwon and will never agree to any policing by the organization.

That's right, it's the big schools that say that the certificate signed by the instructor is more valuable. They are the ones that don't wish to send over the money to Korea and instead wish to pocket all of the testing fees.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

That's right, it's the big schools that say that the certificate signed by the instructor is more valuable. They are the ones that don't wish to send over the money to Korea and instead wish to pocket all of the testing fees.

Thats one theory, but again you are generalising. I have no doubt that some schools/GM's think this way but you shouldnt assume that 'every' big school that says their cert is more valuable because "they dont wish to send money to korea and instead pocket it themself". I admire your devotion to your cause but you have to stop generalising. Many big schools who say this give the student the option for a kukki cert at only the cost it will cost to get one, thus not making a cent out of the kukki cert. And many students actually value a certificate with their own GM's org on it. I know you find this hard to believe, but even if I had a kukki cert, the cert given to me by my GM would take pride of place over the kukki one and I am certainly not alone in this way of thinking. I was at work the other day and met 2 guys who are instructors at rhee tkd and we spoke for a long time. Their devotion to the art is second to none and they were a wealth of knowlege on all things tkd, and they too expressed how much value they place in certification from their org over everything else. I think you need to get out more and talk to more people who train at large unaffiliated orgs and you will realise that we are not all a bunch of brainwashed zombies hanging on every word from our GM. We simply learn from someone with exeptional ability and they teach and nurture us over a long period and when they can look at us and see we are worthy to wear a black belt in their system that means more to us than any piece of paper stamped by someone who has never seen us actually do anything.

 

[Archtkd]

GM UHM Woon Kyu made LOTS of headway. In fact, he has been the primary at the Kukkiwon since almost the very beginning. We talk about the big three leaders, but actually it was the big two: GM Uhm and GM LEE Chong Woo. How Dr. Kim did it was to leave the Taekwondo parts to Taekwondoin; for the Kukkiwon GM Uhm took the lead while at the WTF, GM LEE Chong Woo took the lead. Make sense, since GM Uhm and the Chung Do Kwan (through GM LEE Won Kuk) had a primary interest in the development of poomsae, and the Jidokwan was the leader in kyorugi. So you statement about GM Uhm is incorrect. The reason why GM Uhm was the natural successor for Dr. Kim at the Kukkiwon was because he was doing the job all these years anyway. That's why no one questioned or was surprised when he became the second Kukkiwon president.

Thanks for your perspective and insight. The impression I got was that GM Uhm was very good and effective from a martial arts point of view, but he didn't appear to have the ability to hold the political and admisntrative side of things at the Kukkiwon together, particularly in the global sense. His successor GM Lee appeared to have a better grasp of running and growing the organization, but I have always thought his other political and business interests attracted distractions that accelerated his ouster.

 

[puunui]

Thats one theory, but again you are generalising. I have no doubt that some schools/GM's think this way but you shouldnt assume that 'every' big school that says their cert is more valuable because "they dont wish to send money to korea and instead pocket it themself". I admire your devotion to your cause but you have to stop generalising. Many big schools who say this give the student the option for a kukki cert at only the cost it will cost to get one, thus not making a cent out of the kukki cert. And many students actually value a certificate with their own GM's org on it. I know you find this hard to believe, but even if I had a kukki cert, the cert given to me by my GM would take pride of place over the kukki one and I am certainly not alone in this way of thinking. I was at work the other day and met 2 guys who are instructors at rhee tkd and we spoke for a long time. Their devotion to the art is second to none and they were a wealth of knowlege on all things tkd, and they too expressed how much value they place in certification from their org over everything else. I think you need to get out more and talk to more people who train at large unaffiliated orgs and you will realise that we are not all a bunch of brainwashed zombies hanging on every word from our GM. We simply learn from someone with exeptional ability and they teach and nurture us over a long period and when they can look at us and see we are worthy to wear a black belt in their system that means more to us than any piece of paper stamped by someone who has never seen us actually do anything.

Thanks for making my point, even if you probably don't realize it. I have friends who have big schools and don't give out Kukkiwon certification to their students. They all say the same thing, that they rather pocket all the money themselves rather give it out, and they all sell the idea that their dojang certificate is more valuable than one signed by someone who doesn't know them. And all their students sound like you.... defending that dojang certificate to the bitter end, with the possible exception of those who get out more and realize what the Kukkiwon is and how "valuable" its certification is, especially when they get outside of the small pond and into the larger world.

 

[Archtkd]

First of all it is spelled feat.
I will personally be having dinner with the kkw president on Sunday. There will be about ten of us at the dinner, all 2nd and 1st class instructors. There was some insinuation that we will be forming a group/committee to go around conducting tests and evaluations. They will also no longer be allowing instructors to promote students to poom/dan unless they have passed the kkw fic. Don't think that will start til next year though. Get ready, get informed or get out
I personally would love to be part of quality control. Seen too many bad schools/teachers who only care about money and forget technique. The amount of travel suggested seems like a lot though...we shall see what transpires...

Kindly provide us with a report about what is discussed at the dinner. Also do you know if the KKW pres plan to visit other parts of the country, especially the Midwest?

 

[leadleg]

I wish the KKW would visit or send an instructor by my school!

 

[terryl965]

I wish the KKW would visit or send an instructor by my school!

Me too, I just cannot see how they could possibly make it to everyone that teaches KKW TKD.

 

[leadleg]

Me too, I just cannot see how they could possibly make it to everyone that teaches KKW TKD.

Yeah it would be tough, i would imagine that they will enlist American masters to carry out some of this. Now that would be scary, as some of these masters might be your competitors and abuse may happen.
Of course this is only speculation.
I do know that at every KKW event I have been to, poomse seminar in SF,put on by cuta, the special testing by usat and the instructor seminar in Chicago put on by the ustc, the KKW officials and instructors were appalled by some of the techniques done by some of the school owners, and BB's.
I am not surprised that they feel the need to do something, maybe they will only attempt to correct schools with over 100 students.
Possibly they will think it suffice to let only those with instructor liscenses promote. I think most owners would be willing to take the course.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Rightly or wrongly, that is how I see certification as offered by large martial arts organizations. I see so often the arguments made here about transferability and acceptance, etc., for KKW certification. Those are very much consumer-oriented benefits.

It is only when you talk about individual things such as recognition in your instructor's eyes, that the focus turns to something else... And then we wouldn't be talking about transferability or acceptance, would we?

But if you're asking me on a personal level, I don't really value 'certification' the same way I think most people on the TKD forum do. My karate dan certification is a handwritten document in Japanese (perhaps even the Okinawan language/dialect) by my teacher. It merely states that I have been given a certain status by him. It would mean nothing to anyone else outside the circles my teacher is associated with, yet I treasure it above almost anything else I own.

Good points!

Though I think that that organizational certification goes beyond consumer benefit.

When I attended an acredited (or whatever the operative term is) high school, I received credit, and ultimately, a diploma. That credit and diploma are accepted anywhere in the uS. If my family had moved the summer after my sophomore year in high school, I would not not have had to repeat my freshmen and sophomore years at a new school. Once I graduated, my diploma is recognized by any higher learning institution because the high school I attended was accredited or certified, or whatever, in some way.

Parents who home school also have a means of certifying that what they do is actually schoolwork that meets the standards of the educational system so that when their kids turn eighteen and want to go to college, they aren't told that they have no diploma.

Now, suppose I never attended school and my grandfather taught me in the back yard, never doing whatever one needs to do as a home schooler to allow me to have earned recognized credit. He is the one who taught and quizzed me on the material, so I could easily say, 'only his approval matters. I don't need the approval of an outside organization that doesn't know me.'

Well, if I chose to attend college, I'd have to take a placement test and then take a ton of base classes in order for me to get to where the college feels that I should be before taking any of the classes that I might want to take. The college may deny, and I may have to go to a community college, where I'd still have to take the base courses.

If I go to look for work, I will be told that I need a high school diploma. Not having one, I'd have to go out and get a GED.

Now, I think that it is important to note that at no point did I ever see myself as a consumer when I was in school. I was a student. Technically, everyone paying for a service can be classified as a consumer, and even public schools involve you paying for a service. People just don't notice because they pay through their taxes rather than by direct fee. When you go to the doctor however, and do pay by direct fee, you are a patient, and few patients think of themselves as consumers.

Certainly, lack of organizational certification in martial arts does not carry the same level of consequence that lack of a recognized H/S diploma does. It does, however, protect the student's investment to a degree.

As for the 'my master's certificate is far more important to me than some foreign organization's certificate',well, I cannot speak for karate or other arts, but with the KKW, that Kukki cert means not only that your master with whom you have trained has certified you, it meas that he or she was willing to recommend you to the Kukkiwon.

Most don't change high schools, but some do. Likewise, most taekwondoin never encounter an issue where rank portability is an issue, but some do. So yes, most taekwondoin would likely be unaffected one way or the other by Kukki certification or a lack thereof. But some are.

So while I agree that an organizational cert provides a nice consumer benefit, that is a by product rather than the function.

I think that students generally do not view themselves as consumers and usually are not going to great lengths to verify their instructor's credentials. I do think that parents of students are consumers and are the ones most impressed by stuff hanging on the walls in the office.

Now, if I as a taekwondo student do think of myself as a consumer, and I am paying more than a hundred dollars for a BB test (many are more that three hundred), and my instructor holds Kukki rank high enough to get me Kukki certification, I'd consider myself shortchanged if all that I received was something that he had printed at Office Depot. Particularly if I'd been paying him for four years.

Now, if the test cost less than fifty bucks, I won't complain, though I would hope that he would at least offer me the option.

Daniel

 

[dancingalone]

When I attended an acredited (or whatever the operative term is) high school, I received credit, and ultimately, a diploma.
...

Certainly, lack of organizational certification in martial arts does not carry the same level of consequence that lack of a recognized H/S diploma does. It does, however, protect the student's investment to a degree.

I appreciate the time you took to write this, but I don't think the academic accreditation analogy works. Educational accreditation, at least for American colleges and universities, is overseen through various agencies under direction of the US Department of Education. It's a national concern with governmental involvement at all levels, including funding, planning, implementation, and testing.

I don't see the same scenario playing out in TKD in the US. The US government has no qualitative concern over TKD ranks or curricula. To them, an ATA certification has exactly the same level of official governmental recognition (that is to say none) as a KKW or ITF degree.

You are more or less talking about recognition by private groups or private citizens which is fine and good, but hardly the same thing as so-called 'regional accreditation' in college education, the gold standard by which all US degree-granting institutions are judged by. In other words, certification is important because we choose to make it important, not because it is intrinsically.

As for the 'my master's certificate is far more important to me than some foreign organization's certificate',well, I cannot speak for karate or other arts, but with the KKW, that Kukki cert means not only that your master with whom you have trained has certified you, it meas that he or she was willing to recommend you to the Kukkiwon.

Most don't change high schools, but some do. Likewise, most taekwondoin never encounter an issue where rank portability is an issue, but some do. So yes, most taekwondoin would likely be unaffected one way or the other by Kukki certification or a lack thereof. But some are.

So while I agree that an organizational cert provides a nice consumer benefit, that is a by product rather than the function.

True. Yet when we talk about the benefits of KKW certification, this is ALWAYS one of the first points trotted out. It seems to me that these consumer benefits take up an inordinate amount of space in the minds of the proponents, and by extension lessening the importance of the others. My thought is that if we value something foremost, we would probably talk about it foremost.

And given all the talk about unification and such, I really do think many in the large organization camp believe the KKW as an entity is MORE IMPORTANT than individual relationships between teachers and students. Obviously, I can't agree with that.

I think that students generally do not view themselves as consumers and usually are not going to great lengths to verify their instructor's credentials. I do think that parents of students are consumers and are the ones most impressed by stuff hanging on the walls in the office.

Now, if I as a taekwondo student do think of myself as a consumer, and I am paying more than a hundred dollars for a BB test (many are more that three hundred), and my instructor holds Kukki rank high enough to get me Kukki certification, I'd consider myself shortchanged if all that I received was something that he had printed at Office Depot. Particularly if I'd been paying him for four years.

Now, if the test cost less than fifty bucks, I won't complain, though I would hope that he would at least offer me the option.

Do you pay money for learning TKD? Would your teacher continue to teach you if you didn't pay him?

Those questions would probably reveal if you are a consumer and your teacher a 'merchant' or not. I don't really care about the distinction myself. You can learn excellent martial arts from both commercial and nonprofit schools. But undeniably, there's a consumer/commercial attitude in all this when we talk about certs and their value beyond teacher-to-student recognition.

 

[puunui]

I wish the KKW would visit or send an instructor by my school!

Why?