ralphmcpherson
Senior Master
Thats why I used nrl as my example. I don't know enough about American sports, but I'm worried about what you guys are going to do to us in the ashes later this year
Has olympic Taekwondo ruined the reputation of the art?
- Thread starter Mr. President
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Thats why I used nrl as my example. I don't know enough about American sports, but I'm worried about what you guys are going to do to us in the ashes later this year
Is it really a "sport only club" if they're giving any attention at all to other areas of TKD? To my mind, that would be "sport-oriented", with "sport only" meaning no poomsae, no SD training, no nothing except training to spar using a given ruleset (worded that way to allow the possibility of non-Olympic sport only clubs).
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Kframe
Black Belt
Jaeimseu you are missing Twinfists point. He is talking bout the normal average public joe blow off the street. THEY think Black belt means expert, despite that most here don't feel that way. So Joe Blow public sees these Olympic guys, wearing black belts and using the name Tae Kwon Do and assume that is how the art functions. How could they not draw that conclusion, even a casual google search of TKD sparring will bring up Way more videos of WTF style sparring then any other. Heck I was ready to sign up at a TKD place, to follow my old mans footsteps. I just happen to casually check out more info on TKD online and that's when I discovered all the sparring videos, wtf sparring videos, vastly out ranking any other kind. I was turned off by it, because I wanted real TKD, art tkd, self defense tkd, not hands at my sides, bouncy crapkwondo. Further reading lead me to the conclusion that as a predominantly stand up striking art, TKD does not teach take down defense in any meaningfull way.
EtinCyqx yes you may also do grappling arts as well, so your take down defense will be good. You represent the minority of TKD, not the majority.
Honestly, if I knew that the local KKW TKD place, taught takedown defense, and a real fight stance and method, not wtf stuff, id more then likely sign up. I am not satisfied with my striking ability or skill set, and tkd, would imho be a good place to start, if I could find quality instruction.
Twin Fist
Grandmaster
for 60 years now, the PUBLIC has been told that martial arts are about self defense. Thats why people by and large start taking martial art classes.
self defense
that entire time, the public has been told that a black belt means a certain level of skill. It USED to mean expert, then it meant less, but to the public, it still means 'good at" a martial art.
not a sport
a martial art, that means self defense, not sport
the bb is a symbol of skill in SELF DEFENSE
thats why sport only school shouldnt be allowed to give out BB's, if they dont teach self defense.
putting a BB on someone with no skill in self defense is IMO, close to fraud
self defense
that entire time, the public has been told that a black belt means a certain level of skill. It USED to mean expert, then it meant less, but to the public, it still means 'good at" a martial art.
not a sport
a martial art, that means self defense, not sport
the bb is a symbol of skill in SELF DEFENSE
thats why sport only school shouldnt be allowed to give out BB's, if they dont teach self defense.
putting a BB on someone with no skill in self defense is IMO, close to fraud
Funny story: As a lowly Judoka teenager bouncing around between systems, i never tried TKD because i didnt like what i saw online. That happened years later.
Jaeimseu
3rd Black Belt
I understand his point. I don't understand why anyone is so concerned about what the opinion of normal average public joe blow is. Normal average public joe blow isn't a student at a Taekwondo school. Why worry about the opinions of people who don't know anything about what you're doing? If you own a school and you are losing students to a "sport only" school then I can understand why you might be bitter, but if that's the case, figure out how to market yourself better.
IMO, the lack of quality instruction has nothing to do with Olympic Taekwondo. There are plenty of great instructors out there, and plenty of bad ones, regardless of style or system. In some areas there may not be a good school. Other areas may have several.
Whether or not a school's method fits in with your preconception of what Taekwondo is "supposed" to be may have nothing to do with quality of instruction. It may simply be a question of what you want to learn. If you (these are all general yous) have any sense, you will check out the schools to see what's being taught. If you aren't checking out the schools before handing over your money then you will get what you get.
People talk a lot about the glory days of Taekwondo or baseball or any number of things, mostly without ever really experiencing those things for themselves. An interview with GM Hee Il Cho was posted recently. In it, he talked about the old way, and while he had some good things to say about it, he also mentioned that lots of things from the old days weren't so good and/or wouldn't work today.
dancingalone
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Splitting hairs I think. KKW guidelines say you need to learn the poomsae to be promoted to BB. And you need a BB to compete and therefore...
dancingalone
Grandmaster
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I own a TKD dojang. My competitors aren't the Olympic sport schools. As far as I know there really aren't any in my area that produce these type of athletes, though a few compete casually in the AAU circuit. My competition is the Shaolindo school that has lots of kid students. Or the many TKD/Karate/TSD schools that teach the traditional arts with varying degrees of quality and rigor.
Absolutely. Plenty of flotsam out there that masks under the guise of traditional martial arts. This from someone who considers himself a traditionalist first and foremost.
I don't know that TKD as a whole has advanced considerably since the sixties or seventies, at least in the US. Sure, the elite competitors whether in the Olympic arena or elsewhere know a lot more about modern technique, bio-mechanics, and staying fit and healthy, but I think the masses have largely stayed at the same level of understanding from decades ago. Only now there is a LOT more people, mostly kids, training and the rigor/toughness of training naturally has lessened as a consequence.
TF, I had to sleep on this to give you a considered response. I don't personally hold with the KKW way being the only way, just like I don't hold with TKD being the only way. I think TKD is TKD, and if one keeps an open mind, there's a lot to be gained from looking at how other associations and groups do things. There's even more to be gained from cross training.
I can't decide whether you are worried about little Johnny or his parents...but both parties would certainly be aware that they were learning a sport in a sport focused school. In my experience, the positive relationship between instructors allows those more interested in sport to be passed to more sport focused schools and those more interested in the full syllabus to be passed to an appropriate school also. Horses for courses, and nobody is hiding anything from the 'customer' or anyone else.
Yes, those people competing internationally must wear a 1st Dan BB minimum. It means that they have reached a certain level of skill in the sport. If holding a black belt means anything about self defence, how do you explain all those six sigma black belt quality managers wandering around in big corporations? They are black belts because they are good at what they do. The public don't expect them to be experts in self-defence, because the public is not stupid. Just because it's different to what you do, does that make that black belt invalid? And as we both know, the public perception of what a martial arts black belt means is often so far out of whack with reality that what the public thinks it means is largely irrelevant - it only means anything inside of the awarding association.
I think it's fair that it's called Taekwondo, as it is one aspect of that art. I also think it's fair that competitors wear a belt that signifies their level of competence in that aspect of the art. I think there's a broader issue with the public view of what BB means, but that's across all arts, not just TKD.
So I have some questions for you again:
1) How does the public's perception of those black belts sparring at the Olympics under the Taekwondo banner affect you directly?
2) If it doesn't affect you and what you do, are you more worried about other people, and if so, why and how?
3) If it does affect you and what you do, is it not as simple as explaining to people that what you do is quite different to what they do in the Olympics?
I'm intrigued by your viewpoint as I don't meet many people who feel so strongly about this, so I appreciate you taking the time to discuss it sensibly with me and look forward to your response. :asian:
Incorrect. A lot of what has been said I agree with and in many cases, consider valid:
- Taekwondo in the Olympics does not resemble any of what people practice outside of WTF competition, including KKW pumsae.
- Taekwondo in the Olympics does not resemble any real fight that I have seen and is not what I would call, "realistic self defense."
- Taekwondo in the Olympics has relegated hand techniques to straight body punches only and emphasizes high kicking, which makes it less interesting/appealing to some and which is the main cause of the previous two points.
- Taekwondo in the Olympics allows for people to score while falling down (something that I have stated that I strongly dislike).
- The use of electric gear is gimmicky and unnecessary.
However, none of those things that have been connected with taewondo in the Olympics "ruining" the reputation of the art. Just stating those things, true though they may be, does not substantiate the art's repuatation being ruined. Reputation is about perception, not features.
And the question about reputation is unqualified; it asks, "Has olympic Taekwondo ruined the reputation of the art?" It doesn't ask if it has ruined it with specific groups of people (grapplers, strikers, martial artists in general, Olympic viewers, etc.). In terms of the big picture, taekwondo's reputation has not been ruined. Holding a taekwondo black belt is still respected by the majority of people.
I have offered the position that the reputation of the martial arts have been negatively impacted by lousy schools, McDojos, and heavy commercialization, and that taekwondo has been the hardest.
This affects the art's reputation in the following ways:
- Blackbelt students who lack basic proficiency in the art, so much so that non practitioners can see it obviously.
- The perception that young children who cannot cross the parking lot by themselves are being promoted to adult ranks.
- Through various extra cost clubs and overinflated equipment costs, the art is seen as a school owner's business venture more than as a place to learn martial arts.
- Through service contracts and billing companies, people are turned off because they see the school as trying to trap them into staying when they no longer can.
- Through after school programs and the heavy appeal to children, schools seem to be more about childcare, anti-bullying, and fun & fitness than about the martil art itself.
Those things are about perception. None of that has "ruined" taekwondo's reputation as a whole (yet), but it certainly has had a negative impact and opened the art to a lot of criticism.
Of course not. I never said that it did.
Incorrect on both counts.
I am more open minded now; I used to be closed minded to a lot of things, including the value of WTF sport or the value of having the art in the Olympics. The fact that I don't spew negativity about the Kukkiwon or the WTF, or invest my energy in hatred for the sport as you do does not make me closed minded.
I am open to, and ancknowledge the value of, what other taekwondo organizations offer and what other KMA offer. The fact that I hold a positive view of the organization that issued my dan certificate does not make me closed minded at all.
As for being a fanboy, not agreeing with your particular (and negative) assessment does not make me a fanboy. I have voiced what I see as legitimate criticisms of WTF sport TKD both in this post and in previous posts and have said that it is not my cup of tea. So if you are going to name call, at least have the decency to do so with proper word usage.
SahBumNimRush
Master of Arts
I've stayed out of this thread, but it has been an interesting one. Here is my observation/experience. My KJN was on the Masters delegation committee for the '88 Olympics, and was part of the '92 Olympics as well. He was Vice President of the USTU. He was involved politically to spread TKD.
We never practiced the KKW curriculum.
We did compete, if we wanted to, at USTU functions back in the day. If we wanted to compete in poomse, we had to go learn the appropriate form for the rank, but that's about it.
My KJN became apprehensive at the direction this push for the Olympics was taking TKD. Limiting the totality of the art. Particularly the mental side. Becoming a sport, meant leaving behind the focus of certain aspects of the art. He also didn't like the looks of the sparring going on, he called it "chicken fighting." I'm not entirely sure of what he meant by that statement, but I think it was a reference to cock fighting, in that there was little blocking, lots of flailing kicks. Keep in mind this was the '80's- mid '90's.
I competed on the junior national circuit in the mid-late 90's. I will admit the sparring strategy was certainly different. To me it was more of a game than it was sparring. Using the rules, bending the rules, to give you the advantage. Hugging, groin kicking, "tap" kicks that would never actually score in a traditional tournament or do damage to someone. It wasn't my cup of tea.
Watching the evolution of Olympic TKD, I think it has grown up a great deal since then, but it's still not my cup of tea. I like being a dinosaur when it comes to TKD. I like the totality of traditional TKD. Although, I wish I could do those 720 kicks It is a mighty display of athleticism!
My KJN was in the ROK army, taught TKD to both U.S. and ROK soldiers, as well as the Korean national police academy. I think it might be this military background that kept the focus of our association more holistic.
Full circle back to the OP, no I don't think that the Olympics has been a detriment to TKD. I think that, just like Karate, Taekwondo is a fragmented art, which is not a bad thing. There are many "styles" that offer a great many things. You've got the ISKA and NASKA in Karate and the IWUF in Wushu, which, IMO are the equivalent to Olympic TKD. To each their own.. . If there was no demand for it, it would not exist.
We never practiced the KKW curriculum.
We did compete, if we wanted to, at USTU functions back in the day. If we wanted to compete in poomse, we had to go learn the appropriate form for the rank, but that's about it.
My KJN became apprehensive at the direction this push for the Olympics was taking TKD. Limiting the totality of the art. Particularly the mental side. Becoming a sport, meant leaving behind the focus of certain aspects of the art. He also didn't like the looks of the sparring going on, he called it "chicken fighting." I'm not entirely sure of what he meant by that statement, but I think it was a reference to cock fighting, in that there was little blocking, lots of flailing kicks. Keep in mind this was the '80's- mid '90's.
I competed on the junior national circuit in the mid-late 90's. I will admit the sparring strategy was certainly different. To me it was more of a game than it was sparring. Using the rules, bending the rules, to give you the advantage. Hugging, groin kicking, "tap" kicks that would never actually score in a traditional tournament or do damage to someone. It wasn't my cup of tea.
Watching the evolution of Olympic TKD, I think it has grown up a great deal since then, but it's still not my cup of tea. I like being a dinosaur when it comes to TKD. I like the totality of traditional TKD. Although, I wish I could do those 720 kicks
It is a mighty display of athleticism!My KJN was in the ROK army, taught TKD to both U.S. and ROK soldiers, as well as the Korean national police academy. I think it might be this military background that kept the focus of our association more holistic.
Full circle back to the OP, no I don't think that the Olympics has been a detriment to TKD. I think that, just like Karate, Taekwondo is a fragmented art, which is not a bad thing. There are many "styles" that offer a great many things. You've got the ISKA and NASKA in Karate and the IWUF in Wushu, which, IMO are the equivalent to Olympic TKD. To each their own.. . If there was no demand for it, it would not exist.
Twin Fist
Grandmaster
So I have some questions for you again:
1) How does the public's perception of those black belts sparring at the Olympics under the Taekwondo banner affect you directly?
because when i say i am a TKD blackbelt, and they have seen the olympic stuff, they equate me with that. Thats not a positive in my mind. I dont want to be associated with bouncy people that cant throw a kick without falling over. They wear a Black Belt, to the public that means something, so when the see people that cant stand up when fighting, it makes EVERY SINGLE OTHER PERSON with a TKD black belt on look like THEM, perception IS reality
Also, it is so different that it needs its own name.
2) If it doesn't affect you and what you do, are you more worried about other people, and if so, why and how?
it DOES effect me, look at it this way, if your name is joe smith, and there is a story in the paper that a Joe Smith molested little kids, that could easily effect you. No One wants to be linked to things they feel are bad, and using the name TKD for the korean olympic foot boxing links it to the ART of the TKD
3) If it does affect you and what you do, is it not as simple as explaining to people that what you do is quite different to what they do in the Olympics?
I may not get a chance, as soon as a potential customer comes in, and hear's TKD, i could lose them because they think the olympic stuff is all there is. I may not get time to explain the difference.
plus, again, cheese makes everyone look cheesy by association.
to use the ata for an example, i could meet someone and say "hey, i am a TKD BB" and they answer "so's my 4 year old"
1) How does the public's perception of those black belts sparring at the Olympics under the Taekwondo banner affect you directly?
because when i say i am a TKD blackbelt, and they have seen the olympic stuff, they equate me with that. Thats not a positive in my mind. I dont want to be associated with bouncy people that cant throw a kick without falling over. They wear a Black Belt, to the public that means something, so when the see people that cant stand up when fighting, it makes EVERY SINGLE OTHER PERSON with a TKD black belt on look like THEM, perception IS reality
Also, it is so different that it needs its own name.
2) If it doesn't affect you and what you do, are you more worried about other people, and if so, why and how?
it DOES effect me, look at it this way, if your name is joe smith, and there is a story in the paper that a Joe Smith molested little kids, that could easily effect you. No One wants to be linked to things they feel are bad, and using the name TKD for the korean olympic foot boxing links it to the ART of the TKD
3) If it does affect you and what you do, is it not as simple as explaining to people that what you do is quite different to what they do in the Olympics?
I may not get a chance, as soon as a potential customer comes in, and hear's TKD, i could lose them because they think the olympic stuff is all there is. I may not get time to explain the difference.
plus, again, cheese makes everyone look cheesy by association.
to use the ata for an example, i could meet someone and say "hey, i am a TKD BB" and they answer "so's my 4 year old"
No, there hasn't been. Which is nice.
It isn't my favorite format either, though in regards to the question asked by the OP, I don't feel that WTF sparring in the Olympics has been the ruination of the art's reputation.
Twin Fist
Grandmaster
i do not believe the timing is a coincidence.
the rise of olympic style sparring and the ruination of TKD's reputation
and mark my words, today, in martial arts circles OUTSIDE tkd, the reputation of tkd is in tatters
the rise of olympic style sparring and the ruination of TKD's reputation
and mark my words, today, in martial arts circles OUTSIDE tkd, the reputation of tkd is in tatters
Not really, since it's pretty widely known that the KKW endorses giving Dan rank to people who do not know the KKW curriculum. So a pure sport school is entirely possible. All they need is someone to sign off on the certificates. That person doesn't even need to know the KKW curriculum themselves.
So I don't think it's splitting hairs at all. If they're doing anything with the rest of TKD, then they're not really sport only. They're sport oriented or sport focused, but not sport only.
dancingalone
Grandmaster
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I understand what you are saying, but I think you're making too fine a distinction that would render any discussion moot if we were to accept your definition. It's like my car dealership. They sell Infinitis there, but they get in an odd car of another make every now and then due to trade ins and they might try to sell it quickly on the lot if they can. So, since they sold a couple of BMWs this month, are they still an Infiniti dealership or are they now just a 'dealership' sans label? IMO, they are Infiniti.
You are what you are. If you train primarily for Olympics rules tournaments, you would be a sport school, even if you occasionally do something else for fun, for variety, for requirements, for whatever else.
No shame should be attached to the label by the way.
1) It does have it's own name - WTF Taekwondo. Just like ATA Taekwondo has it's own name. You can differentiate what you do from both of those if you so wish by making it clear that what you do is XYZ Taekwondo.
In my experience WTF TKDers are capable of throwing a kick without falling down - the falling only happens due to incidental contact or more rarely deliberate unsportsmanlike behaviour. I'm in KKW TKD and when people walk in the door talking about the Olympics in a negative way, then it's easy enough to explain that that is only one aspect of the art, and the person should stay and watch to see what they think about it. People generally agree AND are surprised by what they see. It should be easy enough for someone outside of the association to explain that their association is separate and that's not what they do.
2) It is linked to the art of TKD, just not in the most immediately obvious ways. It fits with the philosophy. And it's easy enough for for Joe Smith to explain that no, that was a different Joe Smith, in fact it takes only 2 words: no relation. So you can happily explain to people that there is no relation between what you do and what people see on TV during the Olympics.
3) If someone is going to walk out the door due to an opinion they have formed only based on what they have seen on TV, without asking any further questions, and without giving you a fair shout to explain further, what kind of student would they have made anyway. Besides, for every one you might lose who wanted self defence, there's another who will be attracted to the art because of what they have seen on TV. Swings and roundabouts.
Cheese doesn't make everyone cheesy by association. You'll notice that I've been quite carefully avoiding expressing my views on WTF sparring up until this point. I have to admit that since more recent rule changes have gone in, I find it's not ideal. But that doesn't mean that just because someone else finds WTF sparring cheesy, that what I do as a KKW student and instructor is cheesy by association. Again with your ATA example, it's easy enough to explain that you are not part of an organisation that awards BB status at such a young age.
I think you might be worrying too much about what other people think of you, and overestimating how difficult it is to change someone's mind. If you find Olympic TKD so embarrassing, isn't there an opportunity there for you to respond with something like, 'oh no no no, we don't practice that way, what we do is way more awesome, you should come and try it and I'll show you the real deal'? If that is what you believe...
Thanks for the detailed response, I think I can understand where you're coming from but I'm not sure that I agree that we are all affected in such a negative way.
Jaeimseu
3rd Black Belt
How often do you tell people you are a black belt? Do you go outside wearing it hoping to impress the general public? The general public's perception isn't even based in reality. Honestly, I get that you feel passionately about it, but IMO you should relax and get some thicker skin.
The people where you live (Texas, right? My US home is Austin) have a perception, but people in other places have a different perception. I'm in Korea, and the general public here has a different perception of TKD black belt than the one you describe. That doesn't make them right or wrong. Perception is perception, and I feel like it doesn't particularly matter.
I know some people over here who associate all Texans with George Bush and think Texans are stupid. That's their perception. But I don't have time to worry about perception grounded in ignorance. I'll just keep going what I do and leave them to think what they want.
Just a quick observation. The way we represent ourselves while interacting with others, is what Joe Q public will first notice. Name calling really has no place in a mature conversation. IMHO.............
chrispillertkd
Senior Master
Then why is it every time someone around here says "WTF Taekwondo" they get corrected that the WTF is a sports organization not a martial arts style? It's Kukkiwon Taekwondo they always say, right? At least that's what's happened before.
Pax,
Chris
