Hapidoish Taekwondo Training

[Kong Soo Do]

Who's TKD training also incorporates Hakidoish techniques? To be more specific, not someone who takes both but rather someone that takes TKD exclusively but the training also encompasses things often associated with Hapkido such as locks, throws, chokes etc.

If so, at what level does this kick in for you? And why does your training differ from what is 'normally' considered TKD training?

 

[chrispillertkd]

Mine does. We include joint locks and throws in our Ho Sin Sul syllabus. No chokes, though (I was unaware that Hapkido did much choking, but that's another matter.) These techniques are generally introduced around 2nd gup, but occasionally if my instructor holds a seminar which covers them for his students they will be introduced to lower ranks, too.

As for why my training differs from what is "normally" considered Taekwon-Do, I imagine it's because of the whole question of what constitutes Taekwon-Do in the first place. It's quite well known that Gen. Choi incorporated a number of such techniques in his syllabus from GM Chung, Kee Tae who was a highly ranked Hapkidoin under GM Choi, Yong Sul as well as being a Taekwon-Doin. Other strains of Taekwon-Do don't acknowledge Gen. Choi or at least don't follow his syllabus so they may simply have a different approach to things.

Pax,

Chris

 

[Flatfish]

Same here, joint locks and throws are part of our Ho Sin Sools. This is the first school I have been to training TKD, so I can't speak to what would be "normal". We are a WTF school.

 

[dancingalone]

I introduce aikido ideas such as blending from the beginning if the student can handle it (most can't - at least the type of clientele I get). The obvious wrist and shoulder locks are officially belt requirements starting at 5th geup.

And why does your training differ from what is 'normally' considered TKD training?

Because I enjoy teaching it? I don't know that I have a great answer other than that. Even five years ago, I would have said locks, throws, pins, etc. are an essential part of martial art study for everyone. After running a commercial dojang for a number of years now, my perspective has changed. Most of my students won't ever really "get it". Sure they can demonstrate the move in a tightly static fashion, but more that that, perhaps not. I'm really teaching this stuff for the 10-15% who *might* find it useful and also will reach a good enough level of competence to utilize it.

 

[Archtkd]

Who's TKD training also incorporates Hakidoish techniques? To be more specific, not someone who takes both but rather someone that takes TKD exclusively but the training also encompasses things often associated with Hapkido such as locks, throws, chokes etc.

If so, at what level does this kick in for you? And why does your training differ from what is 'normally' considered TKD training?

My taekwondo teachers always had a significant dose of locks, takedowns and throws in the self defense part of their teaching at very early stages. I do the same. My taekwondo teachers never say they are teaching Hapkido -- even though they have significant training and rank in that system -- so I do not have and have never sought rank in Hapkido. I have always considered how I was taught and how I teach to be normal taekwondo hoshinshul training.

 

[Earl Weiss]

For decades the USTF Gup curriculum has a Ho Sin Sul component which for purposes of that component Contains a release from a grab, Takedown or throw, Joint Attack or pressure point application as well as chokes . Since throws are part of it, falls are something that precedes it. The org requirements are core and minimum. Far be it from me to try and decide if locks or throws are Hapkido, Aikido, Ju Jitsu, or Judo , or something else in derivation. My approach to this is from my background in Judo (1971-1972) Hapkido (trained at a TKD / Hapkido school from 1975-1977 with various seminars thereafter) And Ju Jitsu (Sporadicaly since 1975) The JJ background has lead me to include more groundwork than I ever had in Hapkido classes or seminars.

 

[Archtkd]

I forgot to mention: my taekwondo training has always been under teachers/dojangs with a high adult -- 18+ -- population, as is our dojang which is predominantly adult, so that makes a big difference. One of the generalizations and often misconceptions out there is that taekwondo dojangs, especially those of the Kukkiwon/WTF brand, all teach child and junior members the same way that they teach their adult members.

 

[WaterGal]

Because I enjoy teaching it? I don't know that I have a great answer other than that. Even five years ago, I would have said locks, throws, pins, etc. are an essential part of martial art study for everyone. After running a commercial dojang for a number of years now, my perspective has changed. Most of my students won't ever really "get it". Sure they can demonstrate the move in a tightly static fashion, but more that that, perhaps not. I'm really teaching this stuff for the 10-15% who *might* find it useful and also will reach a good enough level of competence to utilize it.

I think most people need to train joint locks and such a lot, for a long time, with a lot of detail, in order to really "get it".

 

[oftheherd1]

For decades the USTF Gup curriculum has a Ho Sin Sul component which for purposes of that component Contains a release from a grab, Takedown or throw, Joint Attack or pressure point application as well as chokes . Since throws are part of it, falls are something that precedes it. The org requirements are core and minimum. Far be it from me to try and decide if locks or throws are Hapkido, Aikido, Ju Jitsu, or Judo , or something else in derivation. My approach to this is from my background in Judo (1971-1972) Hapkido (trained at a TKD / Hapkido school from 1975-1977 with various seminars thereafter) And Ju Jitsu (Sporadicaly since 1975) The JJ background has lead me to include more groundwork than I ever had in Hapkido classes or seminars.

I'm not surprised. I have mentioned before that there are certain techniques in Hapkido (and probably other grappling arts), that are within some of the TKD kata, but changed so much they are not recognizable until you learn the technique.

 

[Gnarlie]

Who's TKD training also incorporates Hakidoish techniques?

Mine mine mine!

To be more specific, not someone who takes both but rather someone that takes TKD exclusively but the training also encompasses things often associated with Hapkido such as locks, throws, chokes etc.

If so, at what level does this kick in for you?

From day 1 we work releases and control techniques as part of training and testing.

And why does your training differ from what is 'normally' considered TKD training?

I don't think it does. I have had several instructors in two countries, and all have included some aspect of these techniques, tactics and strategies. Currently I'm training in a club that follows the KKW syllabus with strong links to Korean universities, and even the most modern, up to date Korean masters we have had over to visit have brought new self defence oriented material with them. This is true for both old and young masters - typically the older guys have been exposed to Hapkido and brought it into their TKD, and the younger guys have been exposed to it as part of their compulsory national service or as part of their University study of TKD.

Taekwondo for self defence is alive and well, just perhaps not in the public perception.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

I appreciate all the replies and I'm impressed with the varied amount of material that is covered in your schools. I think that is excellent. I've always held that TKD and HKD, in many regards could be twins. Perhaps slight variations expected from art to art, but very similar in nature.

 

[Manny]

Who's TKD training also incorporates Hakidoish techniques? To be more specific, not someone who takes both but rather someone that takes TKD exclusively but the training also encompasses things often associated with Hapkido such as locks, throws, chokes etc.

If so, at what level does this kick in for you? And why does your training differ from what is 'normally' considered TKD training?

When I studied TKD under the Jido Kwan umbrella my sambonim taught us one steps with some hapkido aplications because one of his masters (An Dae Sup) was an hapkido master too, so we learned some hapkido moves like some locks, some sweeps and trows,etc,etc.

Now days I teach those one steps and also teach some of these techs in self defense aplications because I know the importance of take control of the bad guy and some times a kick (TKD) is not a good idea.

Please take notice I have some aiki moves that I have incorporated in my TKD and I think this is positive.

I like some of the aikid/hapki do moves but remeber I am not a hapki/aiki master so my moves are very simple but with some logic, the moves must be logic and easy to learn and easy to use.

Manny

 

[Dirty Dog]

We spent quite a bit of time on locks, throws and such when I was young and training in ITF schools. Our Moo Duk Kwan school has never done much, but the curriculum is being changed to include more of these techniques. We started with rolls and breakfalls and have been gradually adding throws and locks over the last year or so.
I don't know if that's "Hapkidoish", because as far as I knew, it was all part of Taekwon-Do.

 

[dancingalone]

I don't know if that's "Hapkidoish", because as far as I knew, it was all part of Taekwon-Do.

Maybe this is another thread, but I wonder what the correct nomenclature should be for these extra bits that I think honestly that most TKD people do practice here and there. Sometimes their source is arguably more judo than hapkido. Unless one displays the signature elements of Ji Jan Jae's martial art, it is fair to use "hapkido" to describe these techniques? I understand it is a convenient shorthand.

Not necessarily addressed at you, Dirty Dog. Please discuss, everyone, if interested.

Edit: Holy cow, I just noticed I made Grandmaster with the new forum software! Bow before the new kwanjang! (Yeah I know it's another shorthand term, perhaps inaccurate in common ma usage)

 

[chrispillertkd]

Maybe this is another thread, but I wonder what the correct nomenclature should be for these extra bits that I think honestly that most TKD people do practice here and there. Sometimes their source is arguably more judo than hapkido.

In ITF Taekwon-Do techniques such as joint locks, throws, etc. fall under the heading of ho sin sul ("self defense techniques"). You can argue about every technique being useful (or not) for self-defense, but that's the appelation Gen. Choi has given them, and I've seen the same used in other arts, too. As I mentioned before, many if not most of these techniques came from Choi, Yong Sul's Hapkido by way of Chung, Kee Tae. He is pictured in Gen. Choi's 1972 textbook demonstrating in the Ho Sin Sul section. Other masters also are in that section, but I don't know if they had a Hapkido background like GM Chung did.

Unless one displays the signature elements of Ji Jan Jae's martial art, it is fair to use "hapkido" to describe these techniques? I understand it is a convenient shorthand.

I never cared for calling these techniques "Hapkido" simply because they were incorporated into Taekwon-Do and have their own designation within that art.

Out of curiosity, what are the "signature elements" of Ji Han Jae's Hapkido and how do they differ from the signature elements of Choi, Yong Sul's Hapkido? I've heard practitioners of Ji Han Jae's Sin Moo (I've also heard he doesn't even use the appelation "Hapkido" anymore but have no idea if that's accurate) talk about the developments he made but they all seem limited to the kicks he added and the philosophy he developed. I don't know what other developments he made that would apply to how the locks, throws, etc. are executed compared to Choi, Yong Sul or if he came up with different techniques in those categories.

Pax,

Chris

 

[Dirty Dog]

Maybe this is another thread, but I wonder what the correct nomenclature should be for these extra bits that I think honestly that most TKD people do practice here and there. Sometimes their source is arguably more judo than hapkido. Unless one displays the signature elements of Ji Jan Jae's martial art, it is fair to use "hapkido" to describe these techniques? I understand it is a convenient shorthand.

Not necessarily addressed at you, Dirty Dog. Please discuss, everyone, if interested.

I don't see any reason not to continue considering them as just being a part of TKD. While Shotokan may have had the largest single influence on the early development of TKD, it wasn't the only influence. There were influences from other Japanese and Chinese arts as well.
Personally, my view is that the traditional art of Taekwondo includes hand strikes (not just punches), elbow strikes, knee strikes, kicks, throws toosul), takedowns, joint locks (kwanjaelsul), pressure points (hyaeldosul), etc etc etc. I was taught all of these as a youth by Taekwon-Do Masters, who were taught them by their Masters.

The current custom may be to teach a sub-set of these techniques (how many students would do the necessary conditioning for spearhand strikes, today?), but that doesn't change what TKD really is.

Edit: Holy cow, I just noticed I made Grandmaster with the new forum software! Bow before the new kwanjang! (Yeah I know it's another shorthand term, perhaps inaccurate in common ma usage)

Not perhaps. It is inaccurate. Kwanjang doesn't mean "Grandmaster", it means "Head Master", as in "the leader of a school". Used correctly, it's not a rank, it's a job title.

 

[Laplace_demon]

I appreciate all the replies and I'm impressed with the varied amount of material that is covered in your schools. I think that is excellent. I've always held that TKD and HKD, in many regards could be twins. Perhaps slight variations expected from art to art, but very similar in nature.

They are most certainly not twins. The kicks in Hapkido are almost exclusively circular and not related one bit to Taekwondo (old or new). TKD incorporates joint manipulation/throws from HK, but to a very basic level. For instance, we've covered four 15 minute classes/training in about 3 months of training.

Blink and you'll miss it!

 

[Kong Soo Do]

They are most certainly not twins. The kicks in Hapkido are almost exclusively circular and not related one bit to Taekwondo (old or new). TKD incorporates joint manipulation/throws from HK, but to a very basic level. For instance, we've covered four 15 minute classes/training in about 3-4 months of training.

Blink and you'll miss it!

You are putting the limitations of training in your school on how others have trained. Not a wise course of action.

 

[Laplace_demon]

You are putting the limitations of training in your school on how others have trained. Not a wise course of action.

It's a matter of principle. TKD is primarily a striking art, and our kicks are not the same.

 

[Dirty Dog]

They are most certainly not twins. The kicks in Hapkido are almost exclusively circular and not related one bit to Taekwondo (old or new).

Really? What is your background in Hapkido? What system of Hapkido, specifically, did you train in?
I ask, because there are an awful lot of Hapkidoin who will disagree with you.

Here, as you can see, we have a low front kick (done with the side of the foot, which makes perfect sense for a sweeping type kick aimed at the lower leg), a mid-level front snap kick, a low side kick (I don't care for the super high chamber, personally), and a high inside crescent kick.

Continuing on, we have an outside crescent kick, a high roundhouse, a high front kick, an axe kick and a thrust kick.

All of these kicks (with minor differences - i.e. I wouldn't do the super high chamber on the side kick) are taught in TKD. And all of them are linear. In TKD, "linear" does not mean that movements are always in a straight line. It means that power directly opposes power. A crescent kick, although it is a non-linear movement, is still intended to apply power in a direct manner to the target.
The notion that "linear" means "straight movements" is common amoung new students. But do you think it's possible to do, for example, Kaunde An Palmok Makgi while moving the arm in a straight line? Even what could well be the simplest block in TKD, the low block, requires the fist to move in an arc.

TKD incorporates joint manipulation/throws from HK, but to a very basic level. For instance, we've covered four 15 minute classes/training in about 3-4 months of training, 3 days a week.

Blink and you miss it!

It's probably a mistake to extrapolate the entirety of TKD from your limited experience, don't you think?