Ground Seminar in Kenpo????

[Touch Of Death]

Originally posted by Fastmover
Clyde you assume too much because you dont know me at all. I have been in Kenpo since 1980 so feel free to explain yourself and how you do things. Thats the point of these discussions is to get different points of view. As always I respect you enough to value your opinion or I wouldnt ask. Would I be wrong to expect the same respect from you? If you do not feel like discussing these things why do you feel the need to make comments?

By the way How long have you been at Kenpo, Just curious?

Why don't you ask Clyde to just pretend we are familiar with kenpo so he can explain why groundwork is only valuable when taught as an extension to the myriad of techniques that he has been taught. If isolating ground techs is wrong perhaps he could explain why instead of just telling us we would not understand until we became as enlightened as he.

 

[MJS]

Originally posted by Old Fat Kenpoka
Jeez, I go home for one night and I come back and instead of talking about how wonderful the Pasadena homecoming was, we are talking about Kenpo on the ground and cross-training again.

Woo-hoo! Let the rehash throw-downs begin!

Hey, at least I didnt start it this time!!

Mike

 

[Touch Of Death]

Originally posted by MJS
Hey, at least I didnt start it this time!!

Mike

I do this only in your name.

 

[MJS]

Originally posted by Touch'O'Death
If a person trains to take advantage of the long arm while in a contact manipulation situation, it should not matter wheather you are standing or on the ground. I see nothing wrong with looking for counters. Could you explain why it is a bad idea.

Not quite sure what you're saying here?? I never said anything about anything being a bad idea? In reference to the armbar that was shown in the pic of Mr Labounty, I was referring to if the arm is properly secured against the body, and you are in the proper position on the ground--IE- close to the opp---then that arm bar is pretty hard to counter. Of course you want to be able to counter a lock..I never said that you shouldnt, so I'm not sure where you are coming from here. Please explain?

MJS

 

[Old Fat Kenpoka]

Mike: I think I'll just be quiet and watch TOD, Clyde, and Sigung86 fight it out on this and a couple of other threads. Can you believe the latest battle of words started over a question of whether Kenpo was Athenian or Spartan? No wonder we have so many separate associations in Kenpo!

 

[MJS]

Originally posted by Touch'O'Death
I do this only in your name.

I can feel the love!!

 

[MJS]

Originally posted by Old Fat Kenpoka
Mike: I think I'll just be quiet and watch TOD, Clyde, and Sigung86 fight it out on this and a couple of other threads. Can you believe the latest battle of words started over a question of whether Kenpo was Athenian or Spartan? No wonder we have so many separate associations in Kenpo!

I agree!!

Mike

 

[Touch Of Death]

you said it was a bad idea to look for an armbar, and I'm saying it is not. My statements are not in reference to countering armbars. Sorry for the confusion.

 

[Touch Of Death]

Originally posted by Old Fat Kenpoka
Mike: I think I'll just be quiet and watch TOD, Clyde, and Sigung86 fight it out on this and a couple of other threads. Can you believe the latest battle of words started over a question of whether Kenpo was Athenian or Spartan? No wonder we have so many separate associations in Kenpo!

I never put the art in either catagory. I was refering to "human behavior" that song the Sugar Cubes did before Bjork left the band.

 

[MJS]

Originally posted by Touch'O'Death
you said it was a bad idea to look for an armbar, and I'm saying it is not. My statements are not in reference to countering armbars. Sorry for the confusion.

Ok--gottcha! A little confusion on my end to--appologize for that on my end. Let me say that again. Considering that there are numerous locks, and in the heat of battle things move quickly, I guess I was trying to say that rather than sit there and say, "I have to get this arm bar." you should take advantage of whatever is given to you. If the armbar is there, take it, if its a wrist throw, take it, a finger lock, shoulder lock, etc, etc.

Depending how you are positioned and how your opp. is positioned, will depend on what type of lock you get.

Mike

 

[Touch Of Death]

Originally posted by MJS
Ok--gottcha! A little confusion on my end to--appologize for that on my end. Let me say that again. Considering that there are numerous locks, and in the heat of battle things move quickly, I guess I was trying to say that rather than sit there and say, "I have to get this arm bar." you should take advantage of whatever is given to you. If the armbar is there, take it, if its a wrist throw, take it, a finger lock, shoulder lock, etc, etc.

Depending how you are positioned and how your opp. is positioned, will depend on what type of lock you get.

Mike

Ok, I'll agree with the wish factor thing. I do feel that the armbar is almost always presenting itself but your thesis is sound. I feel the same pitfalls await us with basic kenpo techs as well; you can't force those either, they either present themselves or they do not.

 

[Fastmover]

Originally posted by MJS
When you are referring to getting to the positions, are you referring to the standing aspect, the ground, or both?? Getting into the position is the first thing. If you position yourself properly and grab the arm properly, you should not even have your back totally on the ground, before the other person taps from the pain. Staying in tight, and having the arm married to your chest, you should get about half way down before the person taps.



Mike

 

[MJS]

Originally posted by Fastmover

????????????

Where is the post??

MJS

 

[MJS]

Originally posted by Touch'O'Death
Why don't you ask Clyde to just pretend we are familiar with kenpo so he can explain why groundwork is only valuable when taught as an extension to the myriad of techniques that he has been taught. If isolating ground techs is wrong perhaps he could explain why instead of just telling us we would not understand until we became as enlightened as he.

Ancient Kenpo secret my friend. Can't share knowledge until you are ready for it my son!! LOL!

MJS

 

[Fastmover]

Originally posted by MJS
When you are referring to getting to the positions, are you referring to the standing aspect, the ground, or both?? Getting into the position is the first thing. If you position yourself properly and grab the arm properly, you should not even have your back totally on the ground, before the other person taps from the pain. Staying in tight, and having the arm married to your chest, you should get about half way down before the person taps.


Mike

Sorry about the last post I messed up............again!


Anyway.....As I was saying breaking the arm while sitting back
is the easy part....maybe. From the mounted position, across side, or knee to the stomach if the guy on bottom knows what he is doing the arm bar may not present itself: HOWEVER, other things will present itself. If all you know is an armbar then the chances of being successful are a lot less. Here is why. When on bottom you must control your elbows and keep them in ...or in Kenpo terms anchored. If the guy on bottom does this it will be hard to dig for the arm bar. Im assuming for the moment that we all know that extending the arms in anyway while on bottom sets up the arm bar. Good example how some Kenpo techniques can get you into trouble. It is for this reason I like to roll with Kenpo guys...they dont anchor their elbows and because of this they make my job easy. The key on the ground to being successful in defeating your opponent is having a full vocabulary of motion to fall back on. If the guy on bottom has his elbows tight against him then go for the choke or punch. As he defends the choke or punch go back to the armbar. Choke..Armbar..Choke..punch..Armbar...and back-in-forth. Defending this attack with be difficult. The point is your creating a reactionary set up and beating him with his response. From my experience from the mounted position the armbar "isnt just there" and I cant just grab the arm into position...unless the guy just doesnt know what he is doing. I have to work and attack to set it up which is what I meant by positioning yourself is the hard part.

Also the guys that have those big gun arms that are very strong may not allow you to simply sit backwards and break the arm. Again positioning is the hard part. Instead of sitting straight back against a strong guy try falling to either your left side or right side first, then moving to your back to the break. Even the strongest can not resist the leverage this puts on the arm. This is a prime example of how leverage can defeat strength on the ground, a key ingredient to be succesful on the ground. A reactionary set up and the use of angles of opportunity are an example of Kenpo concepts that help with acheiving greater leverage on the ground.

In many cases within the Kenpo techniques such as throughout the many take downs in Long 5; Yes Clyde Long 5, we find ourselves standing to the side of our opponent. In this case if I had the arm there is no reason to go to the ground to get the arm bar and break the arm. It can be done from the standing position and personally this is what I would attempt.

NOW the flying armbar is another story...lol........

John

 

[MJS]

Very true!! That is exactly what you want to do on the ground. Giving the person something else to think about, will help you get to your original goal! Good point about the armber while standing too!

MJS

 

[ProfessorKenpo]

Originally posted by Fastmover
Sorry about the last post I messed up............again!


In many cases within the Kenpo techniques such as throughout the many take downs in Long 5; Yes Clyde Long 5, we find ourselves standing to the side of our opponent. In this case if I had the arm there is no reason to go to the ground to get the arm bar and break the arm. It can be done from the standing position and personally this is what I would attempt.

NOW the flying armbar is another story...lol........

John

Odd you could take such much out of the little I posted, and take it the wrong way to boot. Oh well

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde

 

[Fastmover]

Originally posted by ProfessorKenpo
Odd you could take such much out of the little I posted, and take it the wrong way to boot. Oh well

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde

Clyde you are correct, you have posted very little about the subject and maybe if you would explain yourself I would understand where you are coming from. How about some
substance instead of small talk.

Then again, If you find the topic a moot point then feel free to start another thread of a topic of your choice.

Be Good

John

 

[Michael Billings]

You have monopolized the past 2 pages of this thread. Maybe you should trade phone numbers. Then to go back an dig for a remark by Clyde, it sure looks like you looking for a fight, not a discussion.

Good job staying out of it Clyde.

 

[ProfessorKenpo]

Originally posted by Fastmover
Clyde you are correct, you have posted very little about the subject and maybe if you would explain yourself I would understand where you are coming from. How about some
substance instead of small talk.

Then again, If you find the topic a moot point then feel free to start another thread of a topic of your choice.

Be Good

John

I did

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=9056