Ground Seminar in Kenpo????

[Fastmover]

Im curious about the picture posted from the Homecoming camp
that shows Mr. Labounty on the ground doing an armbar? There
has been thread after thread about ground fighting within the
Kenpo system and excuss me for one more but I found this picture
to be very interesting if this was indeed taught at a Kenpo camp.

To anyone who was there or knows, what context was this presented at the seminar? Im am also curious which technique..
...........within the Kenpo system this is refering to or was it
something outside of Kenpo system that was taught???

Please take it easy on me!!!

Comments and Ideas?


John

 

[Old Fat Kenpoka]

Fastmover: Dang! You beat me to it.

I'd bet on outside. Question is...is it the Zen Budokai Aiki-Jujitsu armbar or is it the Brazilian Jiu Jitsu armbar?

 

[Wes Idol]

Mr. LaBounty did not talk about any specific art, just ways of how to break the arm from that position, period. In doing so, the fulcrum could be the hip, the thigh...but not the groin.

WI, HI
UKS

 

[Fastmover]

First Im not going to make a comment about using the groin as a leverage point to break the arm.......I could get into trouble! LOL!

I always enjoyed learning and working these armbars. Im sure others ave experienced this, you spead part of the class working on your top game and then when it came time to train
or spar, you never got the chance to do the armbar because you were on bottom the rest of class. In fact I think I was on bottom for a good six months to a year!!!!! Yes Im a slow learner!

This brings up a very good point maybe? Since some in Kenpo do not work on the ground, how in the world are they ever going to be able to get into a position to break the arm? Its my opinion, mine only, Breaking the arm is the easy part, positioning yourself there to do it is the hard part. How do you folks out there within the Kenpo curriculum address achieving a superior position?

John

 

[Iron Dog]

Mr. Idol is right, Mr. Labounty does not mention any particular art. In fact at the Seattle seminar he wanted us to know that what he shows are "failure drills" (I hope that's what he called them). That is, taking targets of opportunity that present themselves when the Kenpo techniques fail or are overcome. I know he is versed in Ne-waza and other ground work, but he makes it very clear that he is a Kenpo man. He is also very good at chokes and takedowns.
I'm not sure what he was doing in Pasadena, but his focus has been on these failure drills in the last two or three seminars I've taken from him. My first art was Ju-Jutsu and while purists could find fault IMHO I think he is trying to make it possible for every one to do them. Hope this helps..
Patrick

 

[ProfessorKenpo]

Originally posted by Fastmover
First Im not going to make a comment about using the groin as a leverage point to break the arm.......I could get into trouble! LOL!

I always enjoyed learning and working these armbars. Im sure others ave experienced this, you spead part of the class working on your top game and then when it came time to train
or spar, you never got the chance to do the armbar because you were on bottom the rest of class. In fact I think I was on bottom for a good six months to a year!!!!! Yes Im a slow learner!

This brings up a very good point maybe? Since some in Kenpo do not work on the ground, how in the world are they ever going to be able to get into a position to break the arm? Its my opinion, mine only, Breaking the arm is the easy part, positioning yourself there to do it is the hard part. How do you folks out there within the Kenpo curriculum address achieving a superior position?

John

If you'll examine the extensions to the EPAK curriculum you'll see a myriad of ways to put yourself in that position, and many others I might add. There's a beautiful guillotine choke for the extension of Repeated Devastation, and a nice over the shoulder arm lock in the extension of Raining Claw, and that's just the tip of the iceberg.

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde

 

[Elfan]

Originally posted by Fastmover
This brings up a very good point maybe? Since some in Kenpo do not work on the ground, how in the world are they ever going to be able to get into a position to break the arm? Its my opinion, mine only, Breaking the arm is the easy part, positioning yourself there to do it is the hard part. How do you folks out there within the Kenpo curriculum address achieving a superior position?
John

Those Wonderful Considerations Listed somewhere in Infinite Insights:

Attitude->Environment->Range->Position->Maneuver->Target->Weapon->Angle->Cover

I'm bringing this up to make 2 point:

1) Kenpoists look at this position sutf.
2) "breaking the arm is the easy part, positioning yourself there to do it is the hard part." This is "backwards" thinking. Any grappler I've ever worked with controlled position, then chose the best maneuver, target, weapon etc. to get the desired effect.

So to answer your question, on how a kenpoists is ever going to get into this position to break their arm... well they aren't, or aren't going to think about it like that at least. They are going to control Attitude, Environment, Range, Position etc. and possibly choose locking the arm long as a tactic if they so choose.

This wasn't meant as a slight to you, just trying to show how a kenpoists thinks. Does this make sense?

 

[Fastmover]

Originally posted by Elfan

Any grappler I've ever worked with controlled position, then chose the best maneuver, target, weapon etc. to get the desired effect.


Elfan:
Maybe you miss understood me but I couldnt agree more with controlling the position and then taking advantage of the opening.
Good Point! I still think acheiving the good position is the hard part. From what I have found it is these small skirmishes for position that make some big differences.

The preparatory considerations to self defense are no doubt applicatory.

Patrick:
I also like the part about "failure drills" that you brought up. Those type of things are made just for me since I make every mistake in the book.

Correct me if Im wrong, but are a group of Kenpo folks telling me that under certain circumstances they would engage their opponent on the ground? The armbar in discussion is no doubt a great position but I have found many who are very effective at escaping and preventing the break. Even this position can be escaped, why would you willingly put yourself on the ground. I believe this is what Clyde is suggesting from some of the EPAK extensions. In a street defense situation why would you ever try and submit an opponent with a armbar, and Im a big fan of armbars because they work great. Chokes would be more functinal but the problem is, your engaging an opponent on the ground. Is this a smart thing for a Kenpoist?

If you have elected to put yourself on the ground and you do not "know how to swim" you will get eaten by the sharks...as Rigan Machado would say.


I know Im a trouble Maker.

 

[ProfessorKenpo]

Originally posted by Fastmover

Originally posted by Elfan

Any grappler I've ever worked with controlled position, then chose the best maneuver, target, weapon etc. to get the desired effect.


Elfan:
Maybe you miss understood me but I couldnt agree more with controlling the position and then taking advantage of the opening.
Good Point! I still think acheiving the good position is the hard part. From what I have found it is these small skirmishes for position that make some big differences.

The preparatory considerations to self defense are no doubt applicatory.

Patrick:
I also like the part about "failure drills" that you brought up. Those type of things are made just for me since I make every mistake in the book.

Correct me if Im wrong, but are a group of Kenpo folks telling me that under certain circumstances they would engage their opponent on the ground? The armbar in discussion is no doubt a great position but I have found many who are very effective at escaping and preventing the break. Even this position can be escaped, why would you willingly put yourself on the ground. I believe this is what Clyde is suggesting from some of the EPAK extensions. In a street defense situation why would you ever try and submit an opponent with a armbar, and Im a big fan of armbars because they work great. Chokes would be more functinal but the problem is, your engaging an opponent on the ground. Is this a smart thing for a Kenpoist?

If you have elected to put yourself on the ground and you do not "know how to swim" you will get eaten by the sharks...as Rigan Machado would say.


I know Im a trouble Maker.

No, it's not what I was suggesting.


Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde

 

[Fastmover]

Please explain so that I might understand.

 

[ProfessorKenpo]

Originally posted by Fastmover
Please explain so that I might understand.

I'm not holding back, it's just you're not familiar with the material so it would be a moot point.

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde

 

[Iron Dog]

Fast Mover: I'm with you and the whole part of making mistakes is what I think Mr. labounty is talking about. I don't want to speak for him and I wasn't in Pasadena, but what Mr. O'briant and Elfan(?) were saying sounds pretty good to me, though I'm not familiar with the techniques they were speaking of ...yet.
I studied Ju-Jutsu (Japanese) for about 15 years and the arm bar was certainly one of those opportunities that Mr. Labounty speaks of. But you're right, why? I think it's one of those extensions to a problem that has arisen and one way to handle it. Now that I'm back in American Kenpo, the opportunities are endless one more tool in the tool box. Many people simply do not, can not and will not make the proper entry into most of the submission holds. But I think there is an chance they may want to know more and they can choose to stay within this wonderful system and add to it, or go to a qualified instructor in the grappling arts and spend a long time there. That way if they stay in that art for 15 years, they'll know what a: broken arm, 3 dislocated shoulders, torn knee cartliage and being choked out 500 times is like, especially at 56 years of life
I'm learning a lot from this thread about Kenpo, thanks to you and all....and I don't think your a trouble maker...
Patrick

 

[Fastmover]

Originally posted by ProfessorKenpo
I'm not holding back, it's just you're not familiar with the material so it would be a moot point.

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde

Clyde you assume too much because you dont know me at all. I have been in Kenpo since 1980 so feel free to explain yourself and how you do things. Thats the point of these discussions is to get different points of view. As always I respect you enough to value your opinion or I wouldnt ask. Would I be wrong to expect the same respect from you? If you do not feel like discussing these things why do you feel the need to make comments?

By the way How long have you been at Kenpo, Just curious?

 

[Michael Billings]

Sigung Labounty had us rolling around on the ground at NCKKA Spirit Camps and his "Gatherings" back in the early 1980's. His experience originally in Judo, branched and grew as did Kenpo. Japanese Ju-Jitsu and hard style Shotokan mixed in, then Kenpo from the get go.

Eclectic? ... Heck, I know for a fact he has forgotten more than I have learned in my 24 years in Kenpo, not to mention the Take-Ones-Dough I did for 3 years and Shotokan before that. He just plane humbles you - and it happens all at once, real fast. Then you have to break out the Dit Da Jow or Tiger Balm.

Oss

 

[ProfessorKenpo]

Originally posted by Fastmover
Clyde you assume too much because you dont know me at all. I have been in Kenpo since 1980 so feel free to explain yourself and how you do things. Thats the point of these discussions is to get different points of view. As always I respect you enough to value your opinion or I wouldnt ask. Would I be wrong to expect the same respect from you? If you do not feel like discussing these things why do you feel the need to make comments?

By the way How long have you been at Kenpo, Just curious?

Are you familiar with the entire technique curriculum for the EPAK as outlined in Book 5 Infinite Insights? If not, then it would be a futile effort on my part. I've been studying the system of Kenpo for a mere 17 years.


Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde

 

[Fastmover]

Originally posted by Michael Billings
Sigung Labounty had us rolling around on the ground at NCKKA Spirit Camps and his "Gatherings" back in the early 1980's. His experience originally in Judo, branched and grew as did Kenpo. Japanese Ju-Jitsu and hard style Shotokan mixed in, then Kenpo from the get go.

Then you have to break out the Dit Da Jow or Tiger Balm.

Oss

Its good to see fellow Kenpoist taking all things into consideration and using every tool inside and outside of Kenpo to become more effective. Its these type of individuals I respect the most.

There is a time and place with the preparatory self defense considerations taken into account in going to the ground as well as staying on your feet. Having the vacabulary to be successful at each is important I feel.

By the way Micheal your comment about the Dit Da Jow and Tiger Balm, you seem to know me all too well.

Be Good

 

[MJS]

Originally posted by Fastmover

Originally posted by Elfan

Any grappler I've ever worked with controlled position, then chose the best maneuver, target, weapon etc. to get the desired effect.


Elfan:
Maybe you miss understood me but I couldnt agree more with controlling the position and then taking advantage of the opening.
Good Point! I still think acheiving the good position is the hard part. From what I have found it is these small skirmishes for position that make some big differences.

The preparatory considerations to self defense are no doubt applicatory.

Patrick:
I also like the part about "failure drills" that you brought up. Those type of things are made just for me since I make every mistake in the book.

Correct me if Im wrong, but are a group of Kenpo folks telling me that under certain circumstances they would engage their opponent on the ground? The armbar in discussion is no doubt a great position but I have found many who are very effective at escaping and preventing the break. Even this position can be escaped, why would you willingly put yourself on the ground. I believe this is what Clyde is suggesting from some of the EPAK extensions. In a street defense situation why would you ever try and submit an opponent with a armbar, and Im a big fan of armbars because they work great. Chokes would be more functinal but the problem is, your engaging an opponent on the ground. Is this a smart thing for a Kenpoist?

If you have elected to put yourself on the ground and you do not "know how to swim" you will get eaten by the sharks...as Rigan Machado would say.


I know Im a trouble Maker.

When you are referring to getting to the positions, are you referring to the standing aspect, the ground, or both?? Getting into the position is the first thing. If you position yourself properly and grab the arm properly, you should not even have your back totally on the ground, before the other person taps from the pain. Staying in tight, and having the arm married to your chest, you should get about half way down before the person taps.

As for standing, a lock is not something you should look for, its something that you happen to fall into. The value of the lock flow comes into play here. As for submitting the person. Well, if you are lucky to find yourself with an armlock, why control the person with it when you can just snap the arm? Of course, this all depends on the situation. Not every one that you find yourself in, is going to warrant a break. Sometimes its just a controlling situation.

Mike

 

[MJS]

Originally posted by Iron Dog
Mr. Idol is right, Mr. Labounty does not mention any particular art. In fact at the Seattle seminar he wanted us to know that what he shows are "failure drills" (I hope that's what he called them). That is, taking targets of opportunity that present themselves when the Kenpo techniques fail or are overcome. I know he is versed in Ne-waza and other ground work, but he makes it very clear that he is a Kenpo man. He is also very good at chokes and takedowns.
I'm not sure what he was doing in Pasadena, but his focus has been on these failure drills in the last two or three seminars I've taken from him. My first art was Ju-Jutsu and while purists could find fault IMHO I think he is trying to make it possible for every one to do them. Hope this helps..
Patrick

Interesting post. The drills sound very good. Its definately worth having something that you can use, if you find yourself getting into a jam. Its also interesting though, that while he makes it clear that he is a Kenpo man, that he would still fall back on something from another art? Maybe I'm not reading this correctly, so forgive me if I am. Thats just the way it sounds to me. I say this due to the purists that seem determined when they say there is no need to study anything else, yet Mr. Labounty seems to state the complete opposite? Sounds to me like it would be a good idea to have a little crosstraining under your belt if you find yourself getting jammed up!

Mike

 

[Old Fat Kenpoka]

Jeez, I go home for one night and I come back and instead of talking about how wonderful the Pasadena homecoming was, we are talking about Kenpo on the ground and cross-training again.

Woo-hoo! Let the rehash throw-downs begin!

 

[Touch Of Death]

Originally posted by MJS
When you are referring to getting to the positions, are you referring to the standing aspect, the ground, or both??

As for standing, a lock is not something you should look for, its something that you happen to fall into. The value of the lock flow comes into play here. As for submitting the person. Well, if you are lucky to find yourself with an armlock, why control the person with it when you can just snap the arm? Of course, this all depends on the situation. Not every one that you find yourself in, is going to warrant a break. Sometimes its just a controlling situation.

Mike

If a person trains to take advantage of the long arm while in a contact manipulation situation, it should not matter wheather you are standing or on the ground. I see nothing wrong with looking for counters. Could you explain why it is a bad idea.