Forms: Do you train them? If so, how many? How complex?

[geezer]

Most traditional martial arts incorporate the learning forms, kata, sets, or the like into their training system. Whether or not this is the most efficient way to learn has been debated ad nauseam, and is not what I care to discuss here. Rather, I'm just curious as to how much emphasis your system places on learning forms. How many are needed to achieve a black belt or equivalent rank? Are they generally short and simple, or long and complex. I've even heard tell of styles which have so many forms, of such length and complexity, that no one person has mastered them all, not even the style's grandmaster. Instead, several people together collectively carry on the tradition.

As for myself, I'm a 'chunner. As is well known, WC/VT/WT has only three relatively short empty-handed sets, plus the wooden dummy set, a long pole set, and a fairly long set for the Bart Cham Dao, or "eight-cutting broadsword". In my lineage, only the three empty-handed forms are taught until you reach the higher-level instructor ranks. In WC, forms are only one piece of the equation. Paired drills, chi-sau and sparring round out the picture.

I also teach Escrima. We place more emphasis on drills than forms, but I have added about a half-dozen very simple patterns to help students train. Most are based on responding to the same series of "feeds" using a variety of weapons, and they can be practiced as paired drills, solo forms, or they can be broken up and used against the bag, tire stack, or just as "shadow-boxing" to build competence.

So yeah, in both systems there is some forms work, but they are short and few. In WC, the forms appear simple, but they are ancient and profound, with layers of meaning that is gradually understood after long practice. In the Escrima I practice, the forms are recent creations, treated more like flexible drills and learning tools designed to reinforce our understanding of core concepts.

Now my son, by contrast takes TKD, and forms are a huge part of his training. I asked him how many he will have to know for Black Belt. He said "a lot" but that he didn't know the actual number, and didn't really care since his instructor teaches him "old school" and Black Belt is only earned after years of training. Well, that answer sounded OK to me. Good thing he has a better memory than I have, though.

Now, how about you guys? Do you use forms ? How many? How complex?

 

[Mark Lynn]

How many forms, how complex, and do I train them? Another question might be do you teach them as well?

Over the past 30+ years in the martial arts I have studied systems that do teach forms and at different times I have learned different forms.

In TKD I studied the ITF patterns including Chulgi (Nahanchi) and Bassai up to 1st black we had 11, my instructor had us do 10 of them. Out of that 10 patterns I currently teach 9 of them for 1st black plus two more beginning patterns that I learned from another instructor that are more recent modern forms. After my upcoming BB test for my students we will go back to 10 (adding back in Chulgi/Nahanchi) plus the two recent forms.

For 2nd black I learned 2 more forms (ITF) and I think 1 more for 3rd black but I haven't practiced those for many years.

In Modern Arnis there are 8 EH forms (anyos) and I learned 5 of them for Lakan Isa (1st black). I currently teach 4 of them to my students along with 3 out of the 4 solo baston patterns.

In Kobudo training so far I have learned 3 bo forms, 1 sai form, 1 Nunchaku form, 1 Tonfa form, and six Jo forms. All of these I currently train in some more than others and have taught my students the bo forms, Tonfa form, and Sai form to my brown belts.

Outside of the major systems that I continue to teach and train in I also studied Wa Do (Japanese karate) and Kobudo underneath another instructor (as well as my primary instructor).

In Wado I learned 8 forms
In Kobudo I learned 2 kama forms, 1 sai form, 1 boken form, however I haven't practiced these in many years.

I don't teach the Wa Do katas because I teach TKD although I do believe the Japanese forms are better for applications whereas the TKD katas are funner and more exciting to learn. Since I teach American Karate/TKD I have planned on teaching for 2nd black at least one of the Japanese forms as well as one of the Modern Arnis forms so I could use them as bases to start teaching applications from. Likewise I also teach the Kobudo forms as part of my curriculum and as the student progresses through black belt ranks the forms and weapons will progress.

As I have aged I don't believe in needing to study all of these forms, in fact I can't remember all of these forms. Many of them I have to go to the computer and look up video files to see how I did them in years past or even look to a reference book. Only the TKD forms up to black belt and the basic kobudo forms (that I'm currently teaching) can I really remember. In my Modern Arnis class once I see it I can teach it but we do the forms so infrequently sometimes I really have to prepare by studying them first before I teach them.

This has lead to sometimes amusing things like teaching the beginning (TKD) forms completely backwards in class (going to the right instead of the left), having my brown belts sometimes correct me on a move etc. etc. but I'm human, I make mistakes.

 

[Noah_Legel]

I learned 9 Shuri-Ryu kata when I did that system, as well as 2 Goju-Ryu kata and 2 Kajukenbo forms (although I only remember one of them now), so just from training in my first style I learned 13 kata, and the only ones I don't still practice are the Kajukenbo forms and one of the Goju-Ryu kata (Tensho). In my current system, I just recently learned how to perform the last kata in the system, so I know 19 Shorin-Ryu kata and I am also in the process of learning a version of Hakutsuru. All-in-all, that puts me at 33 empty hand kata that I have learned, 29 of which I still practice and 1 which I am still learning.

All that said, I have barely so much as scuffed the surface (let alone scratch it) of the applications of these kata. I can very easily break them down into obvious punch-kick-block karate applications, but I have only been seriously looking into bunkai for about 1.5 years, and I will be spending the rest of my life developing and training the applications to them. Will I most likely stop training some of these forms entirely? Yes, I imagine that I will pare the number that I practice down significantly over time as I develop. The problem that I find is that knowing too many kata means you can't study them as deeply, but if you only know a few kata then how do you know that another kata wouldn't have applications that fit better with your personal style? Also, my preferences may change over time--if I had to pare it down right now, I would choose to keep the Naihanchi kata, Seiunchin and Passai Dai, but ten years from now I might decide that the Pinan kata, Anaku and Gojushiho (or any number of other combinations) fits me better. It's quite the double-edged sword.

On an unrelated note, geezer, would you be up for some sparring with us up in Scottsdale on the 25th? We're having another open sparring event that day starting at 9am.

 

[Mark Lynn]

All that said, I have barely so much as scuffed the surface (let alone scratch it) of the applications of these kata. I can very easily break them down into obvious punch-kick-block karate applications, but I have only been seriously looking into bunkai for about 1.5 years, and I will be spending the rest of my life developing and training the applications to them. Will I most likely stop training some of these forms entirely? Yes, I imagine that I will pare the number that I practice down significantly over time as I develop. The problem that I find is that knowing too many kata means you can't study them as deeply, but if you only know a few kata then how do you know that another kata wouldn't have applications that fit better with your personal style?

I have only scratched the surface of applications as well and I too will spend the rest of my life looking into that. However I wanted to address this (the bolded sentence). I liked what Iain Abernethy had said on a pod cast (which you can down load at ITunes) where he suggested that some katas where an instructor's system say the Nahanchi's 1-3, or Passai (Bassai Dai and Sho), and it has been a recent development to go and collect katas and bring them into a system (I think I read that Shoto Kan had somewhere about 50 kata) where before they had been from different instructors from different systems.

So a down block in this application for say a Pinan Kata could have the same applications as a down block in Chungi etc. etc. I don't think the katas have so many different applications for the same move whereas it is the instructor who comes up with the different applications. I'm speaking as an overall principle here. Like "75 Down Blocks" by Rick Clark. That would make learning a whole lot of forms really redundant in a sense, I suggest study a few and go deep with applications.

Speaking of finding applications with your personal style, this is why I planned to teach a Modern Arnis form in my black belt ranks for my American Karate/TKD classes. The MA forms has a different feel to them (more flowing) and the applications can be transferred to the TKD patterns I teach, same thing for the Wa Do form I wanted to teach as well.

33 empty hand katas all these all in the same system (except for the Kajukenpo)?

 

[MAist25]

I am a practitioner of traditional Moo Duk Kwan Taekwondo, and we do have a certain amount of forms you need to learn for black belt, but also offer more forms training to those who simply want to learn them. For black belt you need to know 11 forms. I am a 2nd Dan and know 22 forms because I enjoy them and chose to learn the forms from our Tang Soo Do roots as well as the Taekwondo ones, even though it wasn't necessary. On a whole, my school does not place that big of an emphasis on them all together. We focus more on conditioning, drills, etc. But yes, you do need to learn certain forms to move up in rank and display a level of proficiency in them before you can be promoted. You can choose to learn more forms than is required, like i did, but we don't spend a ton of time on forms. To be honest, I wish we would spend more times practicing them, but oh well.

 

[seasoned]

Some of the greatest athletes of any major sport will go back to basics and practice base line techniques. (forms)
Okinawan GoJu, 12 kata and related drills.
Enough in the 12 to last a life time...............

 

[K-man]

Some of the greatest athletes of any major sport will go back to basics and practice base line techniques. (forms)
Okinawan GoJu, 12 kata and related drills.
Enough in the 12 to last a life time...............

How I wish I could learn those twelve in a lifetime! Every time I think I have a reasonable understanding of one I find things I had missed. I go to the second and develop an understanding that changes the first. Then you look at the third and find things that redefine your understanding of the first two. I 'know' the 12 Goju kata but I can't say I know even one. I know that in another few years my understanding will be different again. I think a lifetime for one or two kata is reasonable. I think I will be reincarnating many times before I will claim to really know all twelve. :asian:

 

[seasoned]

Some of the greatest athletes of any major sport will go back to basics and practice base line techniques. (forms)
Okinawan GoJu, 12 kata and related drills.
Enough in the 12 to last a life time...............

I love the way the kata talk, and have a story to tell. So much in body mechanics is related, that once you have correct body structure, the "kata book cover" is open. And within those pages, like you said, there is much to read.
Like a good novel, once you pick that book up, it is very hard to put it down.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Our Moo Duk Kwan school practices poomsae regularly, as a means to teach/practice techniques and combinations.
For 1st Dan, you need 10 poomsae, Kicho Il Bu, 8 Palgwe forms, and Koryo. I've learned and practice the 8 taegeuks as well.
In the stone ages, I'd learned most of the Chang Hon forms, forgot them all, and have started relearning. I can get through the first 8 again, but need more work on them.

 

[seasoned]

How I wish I could learn those twelve in a lifetime! Every time I think I have a reasonable understanding of one I find things I had missed. I go to the second and develop an understanding that changes the first. Then you look at the third and find things that redefine your understanding of the first two. I 'know' the 12 Goju kata but I can't say I know even one. I know that in another few years my understanding will be different again. I think a lifetime for one or two kata is reasonable. I think I will be reincarnating many times before I will claim to really know all twelve. :asian:

I love the way the kata talk, and have a story to tell. So much in body mechanics is related, that once you have correct body structure, the "kata book cover" is open. And within those pages, like you said, there is much to read.
Like a good novel, once you pick that book up, it is very hard to put it down.

Ditto, K-man............

 

[rlobrecht]

I study a traditional Chang Hon based taekwondo. We learned 9 patters for 1st Dan. We learn 3 more for 2nd Dan. I know there are 24 patterns total, and you have learned them all by the time you test for 6th Dan, but I don't know how they break down after 2nd (I'm still 1st.)

Our school also has our black belt candidates, and black belts develop their own patterns, and perform them at gradings. As was explained to me, it helps our instructors see that you understand the reasons behind doing patterns.

 

[chrispillertkd]

Rather, I'm just curious as to how much emphasis your system places on learning forms. How many are needed to achieve a black belt or equivalent rank? Are they generally short and simple, or long and complex.

In ITF Taekwon-Do you need to know 9 patterns (tul) before testing for I dan. They are Chon-Ji, Dan-Gun, To-San, Won-Hyo, Yul-Gok, Joon-Gun, Toi-Gye, Hwa-Rang, and Choong-Moo. When reaching dan level you learn four tul per dan when a I, II, III, and IV degree. Two more at V dan and the last pattern at VI dan for a total of 24 (inceidentally, you're not considered a Master in the ITF until you're a VII dan, which means you have actually "mastered" or at least learned the entire system). This number is related to the hours of the day, which can be compared to a person's entire life when compared to eternity.

Gen. Choi designed the patterns in his system to start out teaching basic skills and then have the later patterns build on what has gone before while introducing new skills and getting progressively longer and more complex. There are a few exceptions to this, but that's the general gist of things.

Pax,

Chris

 

[chrispillertkd]

I study a traditional Chang Hon based taekwondo. We learned 9 patters for 1st Dan. We learn 3 more for 2nd Dan. I know there are 24 patterns total, and you have learned them all by the time you test for 6th Dan, but I don't know how they break down after 2nd (I'm still 1st.)

This migh tbe a change your particular school has made to the syllabus. According to the ITF, when you test for VI dan you know 23 patterns and learn Tong-Il, the last one, when you are training for VII dan.

Pax,

Chris

 

[MJS]

Most traditional martial arts incorporate the learning forms, kata, sets, or the like into their training system. Whether or not this is the most efficient way to learn has been debated ad nauseam, and is not what I care to discuss here. Rather, I'm just curious as to how much emphasis your system places on learning forms. How many are needed to achieve a black belt or equivalent rank? Are they generally short and simple, or long and complex. I've even heard tell of styles which have so many forms, of such length and complexity, that no one person has mastered them all, not even the style's grandmaster. Instead, several people together collectively carry on the tradition.

As for myself, I'm a 'chunner. As is well known, WC/VT/WT has only three relatively short empty-handed sets, plus the wooden dummy set, a long pole set, and a fairly long set for the Bart Cham Dao, or "eight-cutting broadsword". In my lineage, only the three empty-handed forms are taught until you reach the higher-level instructor ranks. In WC, forms are only one piece of the equation. Paired drills, chi-sau and sparring round out the picture.

I also teach Escrima. We place more emphasis on drills than forms, but I have added about a half-dozen very simple patterns to help students train. Most are based on responding to the same series of "feeds" using a variety of weapons, and they can be practiced as paired drills, solo forms, or they can be broken up and used against the bag, tire stack, or just as "shadow-boxing" to build competence.

So yeah, in both systems there is some forms work, but they are short and few. In WC, the forms appear simple, but they are ancient and profound, with layers of meaning that is gradually understood after long practice. In the Escrima I practice, the forms are recent creations, treated more like flexible drills and learning tools designed to reinforce our understanding of core concepts.

Now my son, by contrast takes TKD, and forms are a huge part of his training. I asked him how many he will have to know for Black Belt. He said "a lot" but that he didn't know the actual number, and didn't really care since his instructor teaches him "old school" and Black Belt is only earned after years of training. Well, that answer sounded OK to me. Good thing he has a better memory than I have, though.

Now, how about you guys? Do you use forms ? How many? How complex?

The arts that I do, Kenpo, Arnis and Kyokushin, all have forms. With the exception of the Arnis, there's alot of emphasis put on the forms. Now, this isn't to say that we don't train them in Arnis...we do. However, more focus tends to be on the other material. I recall Arnis seminars/camps, where there'd always be a segment on the anyos. However, that is no longer, at least at the camps/seminars that I've been to over the past few years.

As for the numbers:

Kenpo: 15 or so.
Arnis: 5 empty hand, 4 stick. There are more empty hand anyos, however, those come after BB.
Kyokushin: I belive 14. Not sure of the exact number since I've only been at this school a year.

Applications are taught for all of these, which IMO, is very important. If apps. aren't taught, then the student is missing out on alot.

 

[dancingalone]

Yes, far too many. I own a TKD dojang so out of necessity, I have to learn and keep up with a bunch of poomsae in order to teach the students. I'm also a Goju-ryu stylist at heart and I've been known to do a few Matsubayashi variations of the Shorin kata at times. Then there's kobudo...

It's rather stupid I suppose. I know I should trim down the list for serious personal study, but my obligations to my TKD and karate students means I can't.

 

[Chris Parker]

Out of interest, Geezer, are you meaning just the solo string of movement type of kata, or a broader definition (say, the classical Japanese form)? My answer would be different depending on which answer you give.

 

[Mark Lynn]

Yes, far too many. I own a TKD dojang so out of necessity, I have to learn and keep up with a bunch of poomsae in order to teach the students. I'm also a Goju-ryu stylist at heart and I've been known to do a few Matsubayashi variations of the Shorin kata at times. Then there's kobudo...

It's rather stupid I suppose. I know I should trim down the list for serious personal study, but my obligations to my TKD and karate students means I can't.

Dancingalone

I hear you. I teach the TKD forms because that is what I started in and remembered the best. Over time though I prefer the Japanese katas and the Anyos in Modern Arnis, and the Kobdudo.

I wish I would have just relearned the Japanese forms and taught those, however I'm so intrenched now with them that there is no going back teaching wise.

 

[Blindside]

What do you mean by form?

If I look at my Kenpo, it has about 18 required through third black. Most of these are a series of prescribed motions done solo to practice basics, footwork, etc, most of them are unarmed, two of them are armed. One of these is done with a partner.

If I look at my Kali, it has three.... maybe, and this is where definitions get sticky. I don't consider a three count striking pattern to be a kata, anymore than I would consider "jab, cross, uppercut" to be a kata. Now this may be an inheritance of doing years of other unarmed arts whose primary transmission was through classic kata (Goju, Isshin-ryu, or Kenpo), but for me kata are generally longer, and involve moving around alot more, and even manage to face different directions. So is cinco teros (downward diagonal forehand slash, downward diagonal backhand slash, upward diagonal forehand slash, upward diagonal backhand slash, straight thrust) a really short "form," or simply a fundamental combinations of basics (which is what most people consider a form.) How about a specific combination of three stabs?

Then we get into what some of the drills. If the motion of a drills is fixed, say a set sumbrada pattern or box drill, then it is no different than a two-man form found in lots of other systems. If we use that definition, then I have alot of forms.

 

[miguksaram]

I am a big proponent of forms practice myself. I have 15 Shorei forms, plus my 8 Taeguk and 4 Yandanja forms for KKW TKD, and 5 guep forms and 3 dan forms for the kumdo that I study. These are extended patterned forms and do not include two man set, or single drawing forms.

 

[WaterGal]

Well, for WTF TKD, there are the 8 Taeguek forms for color belts (of generally increasing complexity), and then at black belt levels you've got 1 form for each Dan. At our school black belts also do a few weapons forms for each Dan, but that's not WTF standard.

For Hapkido, we didn't learn any forms at all. We do have specific self-defense techniques for each belt, but it's all short partner drills, not solo forms work.