Do you understand your forms/kata patterns?

Tony

Black Belt
Joined
Feb 5, 2004
Messages
526
Reaction score
14
Location
Oxford, UK
To many of us it seems that forms are boring and have no value in real combat but through my training we are told that this is an essential part of our trainign as it makes us think. Within the forms are self defence applications and on occasions we are set the task of exploring how the moves from the forms would be applied.
Personally i enjoy the forms i have learnt espeicially the weapons forms as they have improved my movedments with the empty hand forms.
What are your opinions on this?
 

RRouuselot

Master of Arts
Joined
May 6, 2004
Messages
1,540
Reaction score
70
Location
Tokyo
Tony said:
To many of us it seems that forms are boring and have no value in real combat but through my training we are told that this is an essential part of our trainign as it makes us think. Within the forms are self defence applications and on occasions we are set the task of exploring how the moves from the forms would be applied.
Personally i enjoy the forms i have learnt espeicially the weapons forms as they have improved my movedments with the empty hand forms.
What are your opinions on this?

If you go the Karate Section you will find numerous threads on kata and their value that pretty much reiterate what you are asking here.
 

searcher

Senior Master
Joined
Mar 15, 2005
Messages
3,317
Reaction score
58
Location
Kansas
With what you asked, I would like to think that I have a good understanding of my kata and hyungs. But every time I think I have them all figured out I find something new that makes me think even harder about what I am learning. I tend to look at the surface of the kata, but as I train more I tend to get better in every part of my training. With no real explanation except that the forms are making me better. I know this sounds silly, but if more martial artists would train harder at kata I think they would understand what the old masters were thinking when they put the kata together and this would benefit their training in many ways.
 

MJS

Administrator
Staff member
Lifetime Supporting Member
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
Messages
30,187
Reaction score
430
Location
Cromwell,CT
I think this is one of the main reasons why people speak in a negative way about kata....because they don't understand it. Knowing what you're doing, the moves, the applications to the moves, etc. are key. However, having the right instructor to guide you through this is also very important.

Mike
 

tshadowchaser

Sr. Grandmaster
MT Mentor
Founding Member
MTS Alumni
Joined
Aug 29, 2001
Messages
13,460
Reaction score
732
Location
Athol, Ma. USA
I have done a certian kata for over 20 years and once in a while I will still find something that I missed in the form.
Some kata seem simple and may be only self defence moves joined togeather. Others have to be looked at over and over again to find what is really going on

It should be a never ending quest to understand your art when doing katas
 

RRouuselot

Master of Arts
Joined
May 6, 2004
Messages
1,540
Reaction score
70
Location
Tokyo
tshadowchaser said:
I have done a certian kata for over 20 years and once in a while I will still find something that I missed in the form.
Some kata seem simple and may be only self defence moves joined togeather. Others have to be looked at over and over again to find what is really going on

It should be a never ending quest to understand your art when doing katas
Maybe this is what is meant by the saying your art is always evolving..meaning that every time you look at your art it might be like looking at it for the first time or in a new way.
Just a thought..........
 

Andrew Green

Grandmaster
MTS Alumni
Joined
Aug 1, 2004
Messages
8,627
Reaction score
452
Location
Winnipeg MB
Well, one question to consider is "Is it really there" When you look at a cloud and see a fish it is your mind making the connection, not a cloud that puposely looks like a fish.

You can see many things in kata, many different things for the same movements, like clouds. So how do you know if it is there intentionally or you are just stretching what is there to fit something that isn't?
 

7starmantis

Grandmaster
MTS Alumni
Joined
Aug 13, 2002
Messages
5,493
Reaction score
54
Location
East Texas
Andrew Green said:
Well, one question to consider is "Is it really there" When you look at a cloud and see a fish it is your mind making the connection, not a cloud that puposely looks like a fish.

You can see many things in kata, many different things for the same movements, like clouds. So how do you know if it is there intentionally or you are just stretching what is there to fit something that isn't?
Thats when you test what you think you see against the principels of the system. If what you see violates them...

Also, why does it have to be was was intended by whomever? New things can be found as well.

7sm
 

RRouuselot

Master of Arts
Joined
May 6, 2004
Messages
1,540
Reaction score
70
Location
Tokyo
Andrew Green said:
Well, one question to consider is "Is it really there" When you look at a cloud and see a fish it is your mind making the connection, not a cloud that puposely looks like a fish.

You can see many things in kata, many different things for the same movements, like clouds. So how do you know if it is there intentionally or you are just stretching what is there to fit something that isn't?

If it works what difference does it make.
 

Andrew Green

Grandmaster
MTS Alumni
Joined
Aug 1, 2004
Messages
8,627
Reaction score
452
Location
Winnipeg MB
7starmantis said:
Also, why does it have to be was was intended by whomever? New things can be found as well.
Yup, did lots of that. It became like a game, how many things can I find in this section. Then I stopped doing kata as I saw no point. I wasn't learning anything from them, but trying to "see" what I already knew in them. Like seeing objects in clouds.

But maybe thats just me.
 

terryl965

<center><font size="2"><B>Martial Talk Ultimate<BR
MTS Alumni
Joined
Apr 9, 2004
Messages
41,259
Reaction score
338
Location
Grand Prairie Texas
Poomse, Kata or forms are meant to be preserved not evolving. Tradition is the heart of anybodys Art, without that the Poomse or forms means nothing and that is why so many new MA feel Poomse or forms are a waste of time. They as a whole never had a instructor that explained each and every movement and gone over with them what every application is. I personally feel kinda sorry for those individual as they will never really understand there Art as a whole.
 

DavidCC

Master of Arts
Joined
Apr 5, 2004
Messages
1,938
Reaction score
31
Location
Nebraska
A painting of a cloud that makes one person see a fish and another see a flower and a third to cry over his relatioship with his mother.. that's ART. A painting of a cloud in the shape of a fish is not.


I frequently am reduced to tears by my kata, but not because of my Mom. OK, not really, my kata are fish :p

-David
 

Andrew Green

Grandmaster
MTS Alumni
Joined
Aug 1, 2004
Messages
8,627
Reaction score
452
Location
Winnipeg MB
terryl965 said:
Poomse, Kata or forms are meant to be preserved not evolving.
Then why did TKD dump all the "traditional" kata it had in favour of what is practced now?

The "preserve above all else" idea is relatively new.
 

RRouuselot

Master of Arts
Joined
May 6, 2004
Messages
1,540
Reaction score
70
Location
Tokyo
Andrew Green said:
Then why did TKD dump all the "traditional" kata it had in favour of what is practced now?

The "preserve above all else" idea is relatively new.
They tried to remove the so called "Japanese-ness" from it and make it more Korean which would help justify their claim that TKD IS Korean.


"Cultural cleansing" if you will.
 

BlackCatBonz

Master Black Belt
Joined
Aug 14, 2004
Messages
1,233
Reaction score
35
Location
Port Hope ON
i think it boils down to people not understanding how to break down a kata. most people see whats on the surface and say, "big deal"
then you get the guys saying...lets see you defend yourself with the first downblock in heian 1. then you show them how many things are in that first "downblock".
 

terryl965

<center><font size="2"><B>Martial Talk Ultimate<BR
MTS Alumni
Joined
Apr 9, 2004
Messages
41,259
Reaction score
338
Location
Grand Prairie Texas
Andrew Green said:
Then why did TKD dump all the "traditional" kata it had in favour of what is practced now?

The "preserve above all else" idea is relatively new.
Because when they split they had to find there independence from other country's.
 

Latest Discussions

Top