For those who don't care for ranks

Spinedoc

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Well yes. Sometimes a much higher ranking student will work with a much lower ranking student. In a case like that the higher ranking student tones it down to match the level of the lower ranking student and the idea is for the higher ranking student to help out the lower ranking student. But, most of the time you will be training with somebody at or around your same rank. That way you don't have to tone it down.

Not in either of my arts. When we train Aikido, there may be everything from a 5th or 6th kyu on the mat to a nidan. They are all expected to train together and do the same techniques....Same with MSR. Sensei will demonstrate the technique...he will turn, look at everyone and motion to practice. You then take turns being uke or nage and do 2 techniques on each side, alternating every fourth between uke and nage roles, until Sensei claps. You will practice 2 separate techniques with each partner, and then it is expected that you change partners. YMMV.
 
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PhotonGuy

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I really don't think anybody worth their salt will give a crap about whether they reach Black belt grading quickly, or in perceived or specified time frame. If they did, doubt they would last five minutes with that attitude.

A common question asked by perspective students is how long it generally takes to get a black belt and although the actual time varies from student to student, most instructors will mention an average.
 
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PhotonGuy

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That may be the case for you, but not for me. As I said, I train with everybody. At any given moment I'm just as likely to be working with a white belt as with a black belt. More likely, in fact, since there are more white belts to work with than there are black belts.

Well you see, if you're a white belt you will be working with white belts and other people close in rank or you might be working with people who are of much higher rank but they are going to hold back. They're supposed to hold back if they're of a much higher rank than you. So if you're a white belt and you're working with a brown belt the brown belt is going to hold back and not go all out with you. As long as you're a white belt you will be either working with other low belts who are at beginning levels of skill and experience hence their low ranks or with people of higher ranks who hold back. The only way to train with people of higher ranks who don't hold back is to get to those higher ranks. So that is what I mean by taking your training to the next level.
 

Dirty Dog

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Well you see, if you're a white belt you will be working with white belts and other people close in rank or you might be working with people who are of much higher rank but they are going to hold back. They're supposed to hold back if they're of a much higher rank than you. So if you're a white belt and you're working with a brown belt the brown belt is going to hold back and not go all out with you. As long as you're a white belt you will be either working with other low belts who are at beginning levels of skill and experience hence their low ranks or with people of higher ranks who hold back. The only way to train with people of higher ranks who don't hold back is to get to those higher ranks. So that is what I mean by taking your training to the next level.

This is, as always, where you have it wrong. You continue to equate rank with skill. That's not the way it works.
The only way to train with people who don't hold back is to get your skill to the same level as theirs.
See how it works? Skill. Not rank. If your skills are there, the other person won't be holding back. Regardless of rank.
 

jks9199

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Well you see, if you're a white belt you will be working with white belts and other people close in rank or you might be working with people who are of much higher rank but they are going to hold back. They're supposed to hold back if they're of a much higher rank than you. So if you're a white belt and you're working with a brown belt the brown belt is going to hold back and not go all out with you. As long as you're a white belt you will be either working with other low belts who are at beginning levels of skill and experience hence their low ranks or with people of higher ranks who hold back. The only way to train with people of higher ranks who don't hold back is to get to those higher ranks. So that is what I mean by taking your training to the next level.
I feel sorry for you; your training experience seems to have been so sadly limited by this focus on hierarchy and rank.

In most of the training situations I've been in -- we train across the belt levels. The same lesson is taught (once the newest members have some basic skills, of course), and students are expected to learn it at their own level. Seniors are expected towork with juniors, and everyone is expected to work with different training partners often. In fact, I often put a senior student with a newer student deliberately. The junior gets the benefit of the senior's ability to demonstrate and help them learn while the senior is forced to dig into the exercise to understand it in order to do this, and they get to see people "attack them wrong" or otherwise do unexpected things. It's not holding back or anything like that... it's training. That's not to say that you should never work with people at least as skilled as you, if not better... but that your focus is on the rank, and not the lesson. Or at least that's how you're coming across...
 

Tony Dismukes

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Well you see, if you're a white belt you will be working with white belts and other people close in rank or you might be working with people who are of much higher rank but they are going to hold back. They're supposed to hold back if they're of a much higher rank than you. So if you're a white belt and you're working with a brown belt the brown belt is going to hold back and not go all out with you. As long as you're a white belt you will be either working with other low belts who are at beginning levels of skill and experience hence their low ranks or with people of higher ranks who hold back. The only way to train with people of higher ranks who don't hold back is to get to those higher ranks. So that is what I mean by taking your training to the next level.
When you say "hold back" I assume you are talking about sparring, since drilling reps of techniques is the same regardless of your partner's rank.

In BJJ, the degree to which you "hold back" isn't really based on your partner's belt rank. It's based on the entire picture of the individuals involved and your goals for the current sparring session. If I'm rolling with another 50 year old black belt and we're both nursing injuries and we're both just wanting to warm up and knock off some rust, then I'll probably be going very light. Contrariwise, if I'm rolling with a white belt who is 240 pounds of solid muscle and who has a wrestling background and is trying to rip my head off, then I'm going to have to go a bit harder.
 
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PhotonGuy

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Seniors are expected towork with juniors, and everyone is expected to work with different training partners often. In fact, I often put a senior student with a newer student deliberately. The junior gets the benefit of the senior's ability to demonstrate and help them learn while the senior is forced to dig into the exercise to understand it in order to do this, and they get to see people "attack them wrong" or otherwise do unexpected things. It's not holding back or anything like that... it's training. That's not to say that you should never work with people at least as skilled as you, if not better... but that your focus is on the rank, and not the lesson. Or at least that's how you're coming across...

If this involves drill work that has to do with blocking and countering I don't think the senior will throw techniques beyond what the junior can handle. Striking drills where you hold a bag that your partner hits, a senior student will not hit full force since the junior student will not be able to handle the impact. Senior students working with junior students is good for the reasons you mentioned and we do a certain amount of it too, but a senior student should also be working with other senior students and people at their same level who can go all out.
 
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PhotonGuy

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This is, as always, where you have it wrong. You continue to equate rank with skill. That's not the way it works.
The only way to train with people who don't hold back is to get your skill to the same level as theirs.
See how it works? Skill. Not rank. If your skills are there, the other person won't be holding back. Regardless of rank.

And usually a person with a high level of skill would not be at a low rank, or they wouldn't stay at a low rank.
 
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PhotonGuy

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When you say "hold back" I assume you are talking about sparring, since drilling reps of techniques is the same regardless of your partner's rank.
Sparring yes but most drills also. Lots of the drills we do involve blocking and countering and taking impact when a partner hits a striking pad. For an advanced student to go all out with such drills, a beginner would not be able to handle it.
 

Dirty Dog

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And usually a person with a high level of skill would not be at a low rank, or they wouldn't stay at a low rank.

Unless... (drum roll please).... they're more interested in skill than rank. As has been pointed out more times than I care to remember.
You have an obsession with rank. It's not shared by most people here, and certainly not by the most experienced people here.
You've started thread after thread after thread to try to justify this obsession. Maybe it's time to just get over it?
 

Tony Dismukes

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If this involves drill work that has to do with blocking and countering I don't think the senior will throw techniques beyond what the junior can handle.

For blocking and countering drills, I throw techniques with whatever speed and power the individual partner is able to handle, based on their skill, speed, size, mental toughness, enthusiasm, etc. It's not based on their belt rank. (Belt rank might provide a clue as to their skill level if I didn't already know them, but I'll adjust the intensity up or downwards based on their actual ability as I determine it.)

Striking drills where you hold a bag that your partner hits, a senior student will not hit full force since the junior student will not be able to handle the impact.

Seriously? Holding a bag or pad isn't that hard. You don't need black belt skill to handle the impact of holding a bag for a black belt. Relative size has a lot more to do with it.
 

donald1

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Agreed, and it helps for the person holding the bag to be in a good stance too
 

Spinedoc

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Unless... (drum roll please).... they're more interested in skill than rank. As has been pointed out more times than I care to remember.
You have an obsession with rank. It's not shared by most people here, and certainly not by the most experienced people here.
You've started thread after thread after thread to try to justify this obsession. Maybe it's time to just get over it?


Yep, the most senior student in our dojo has actually been eligbile to test for shodan since 2009. He simply hasn't because he doesn't really care if he reaches it or not....that's not why he trains. He actually, because of a lot of daito ryu training prior to aikido, has actually studied longer and in some ways has more skill than our sensei.

Not everyone cares at all about rank. It's not very high on my radar.

Mike
 

Transk53

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A common question asked by perspective students is how long it generally takes to get a black belt and although the actual time varies from student to student, most instructors will mention an average.

Okay, on average how many do make Black belt, out of that school average?
 

jks9199

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If this involves drill work that has to do with blocking and countering I don't think the senior will throw techniques beyond what the junior can handle. Striking drills where you hold a bag that your partner hits, a senior student will not hit full force since the junior student will not be able to handle the impact. Senior students working with junior students is good for the reasons you mentioned and we do a certain amount of it too, but a senior student should also be working with other senior students and people at their same level who can go all out.
No. A good senior will throw some stuff that's easy, some that's just aboutique at his limit, and occasionally, beyond.
 
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PhotonGuy

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Unless... (drum roll please).... they're more interested in skill than rank. As has been pointed out more times than I care to remember.
You have an obsession with rank. It's not shared by most people here, and certainly not by the most experienced people here.
You've started thread after thread after thread to try to justify this obsession. Maybe it's time to just get over it?

Unless you go to a place that has cheap belts with cheap requirements (and I will admit you find a lot of those) you're not going to find anybody with a high rank if they don't have the high skill level to go with it because a high level of skill would be required for a high rank. I thought at your place people were told when they were ready and they then more or less put on a demonstration and got their next belt. Even somebody who doesn't particularly care about rank I wouldn't see them turning that down if they were told they were ready. Somebody with a high level of skill who stays at a low rank, as I described above that can lead to complications if your skill far exceeds your rank.
 
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PhotonGuy

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For blocking and countering drills, I throw techniques with whatever speed and power the individual partner is able to handle, based on their skill, speed, size, mental toughness, enthusiasm, etc. It's not based on their belt rank. (Belt rank might provide a clue as to their skill level if I didn't already know them, but I'll adjust the intensity up or downwards based on their actual ability as I determine it.)
Well let me ask you this, at your place a student with a high degree of skill, speed, mental toughness, and enthusiasm, would they be at a low belt? Or would they stay at a low belt?

Seriously? Holding a bag or pad isn't that hard. You don't need black belt skill to handle the impact of holding a bag for a black belt. Relative size has a lot more to do with it.

The way we do it, there is a special technique to holding the bag (or punching block as we call it) where you let it hit you and you learn to tighten up at impact and take the blow. Its supposed to increase your ability to take hits, much like some of the drills boxers do with medicine balls where they have somebody throw the ball into their stomach and they catch it while taking the impact. It does take a certain amount of skill to properly do it and it takes lots of practice to get good at it. That is why you don't hit the bag too hard if a beginner is holding it and just learning the skill behind it.
 
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PhotonGuy

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Okay, on average how many do make Black belt, out of that school average?

The question lots of prospective students ask would be more like, "Those students who do make black belt, on the average how long does it take?"
 

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