For All The Taekwondo Bashers The Real Truth On Taekwondo From My View

Jaeimseu

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Don't get me wrong, I am aware of plenty of my own issues. I just know that none of them are the result of trauma from being spanked.

How can you KNOW that, though? It might be true, but I don’t believe it can be proven.


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Earl Weiss

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There is a pretty significant body of research to suggest that corporal punishment causes lasting harm at worst, and just doesn't work, at best.

Interestingly, same thing in dog training. Ask a dog trainer if it's a good idea to swat your dog with a rolled up paper and see what they say.

I have trained dogs thru the Koehler method. Great results.
 

Steve

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I have trained dogs thru the Koehler method. Great results.
I'm not familiar with that term, but the methods seem very familiar. I have rescued a lot of dogs, mostly (all but one) were adult giant breeds. I've adopted them from 18 months old up to over 3, which for a giant breed is approaching middle aged and have never trained any of them for a job (guarding or herding or whatever), though. I've had a lot of success with a blend of positive and negative reinforcement, emphasis on the positive reinforcement.

Most of the dogs I've adopted adjust pretty well, but they've all been through some kind of trauma and a few had some real hangups to overcome. I have a pyranees right now, he's five years old now, and I've had him for about two years. When I first brought him home, he was pretty much afraid of everything. Took six months of positive reinforcement to get him to take a walk further than our driveway. Gus is an anxious chewer, and as a Great Pyranees, he can do a lot of damage pretty quick, but we got him to where he only chews on his nylabones now.

I've never had to yell at any of the dogs, and would never hit them (on their nose or anywhere else).
 

Gwai Lo Dan

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..

Most studies I have seen agree that corporal punishment has a positive effect on immediate compliance, but has many potential negative outcomes long term.

You haven’t observed any negative effects in yourself or in the dogs you’ve had, but I don’t believe you can definitively say that no negative outcomes exist. I was spanked occasionally as a child and believe that I turned out ok, too, but who knows if that’s totally true? People are quite often unaware of their own issues.


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I'll add my own data point. It took me around 30 years to understand the effects of being "punished" .

I grew up to be very distant. You only have yourself.

In my younger days, a girl would say "I love you". I would think, "yeah, just wait. I'll do something without thinking that disappoints you,then we'll see".

Parents say "I love you" then 2 hours later you drop a plate by accident and you run to try in vain hide to avoid getting hit. The lesson learnt is "love" doesn't mean much.

Now that I am married with a daughter, and see domestic violence in society, I think it is a very very bad message to give a girl that love and hitting go together. I won't be adding to the cycle.
 

Gwai Lo Dan

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There are a lot of benefits to doing TKD. It is great for kids and young adults who are new to martial arts. It seems to be the common "break in" style. It is excellent for physical fitness, flexibility, and can teach students respect and self discipline.

Back on topic, one of the key benefits for kids these days is just getting away from the phones and doing some activity of any sort.
 

skribs

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I'll add my own data point. It took me around 30 years to understand the effects of being "punished" .

I grew up to be very distant. You only have yourself.

In my younger days, a girl would say "I love you". I would think, "yeah, just wait. I'll do something without thinking that disappoints you,then we'll see".

Parents say "I love you" then 2 hours later you drop a plate by accident and you run to try in vain hide to avoid getting hit. The lesson learnt is "love" doesn't mean much.

Now that I am married with a daughter, and see domestic violence in society, I think it is a very very bad message to give a girl that love and hitting go together. I won't be adding to the cycle.

This is why I said very clearly in my post:
"It obviously shouldn't be anything that causes lasting harm. It shouldn't be your go-to option (more of a last resort). And it should be followed up with a discussion (once the kid has calmed down)."

If physical punishment is the go-to for any transgression, then yes - it will result in fear. If I dropped a plate by accident, my parents would tell me to clean it up. And I would clean it up and that would be the end of it.

If I broke a plate on accident, and they said to clean it up, and I said something like "I didn't do it" or "I'm not cleaning it up," then it would escalate. Let's just follow the first one (so we don't have to deal with every branch).
  1. They would tell me they saw me do it. If I realize that I was caught in my lie, I would admit it and clean it up. If I was being stubborn, I'd say I didn't.
  2. If I continue to lie, they will start to take away privileges. I might get no computer games, no TV, sent to my room, etc. At this point, depending on the punishment, I might have to clean it up (to avoid losing more privileges) or go to my room. We'd have a talk later. If I was being obstinate, I'd say I didn't.
  3. If I continue to lie, continue to refuse to clean up my mess, and/or don't go to my room, then it escalates. Instead of no computer games for the rest of the night, it might be the weekend. We would go to Chuck E Cheese once a week if I was good; that might be taken away. At this point, if I was being stubborn, I might start arguing or yelling at my parents.
  4. If I were to continue to be disobedient and disrespectful, I would get a spanking. One important thing is that it was never directly part of the escalation. It was a sentence handed out to me wherever the argument was. But it was delivered in another room. This gave me time to reflect on what I'd done, and made it clear that it was a punishment, and not a reaction.
I agree 100% that if a broken plate means you get hit as soon as your parent sees it, that's bad. That creates that situation you describe, where people are terrified of anyone with authority over them, resentful of their parents, and have a very broken view of what love is.

I also believe 100% that kids need to learn to control their tantrums. If the spanking is the consequence for breaking the plate, that's bad. If it's the consequence for losing control of yourself, that's a different story. That's not to say kids shouldn't have emotions or shouldn't react to things. But kids need to learn that there are lines that - if crossed - result in punishment. I don't have the data to back it up, but I imagine that most of the people who will just scream at a retail worker, or who will go up to living statues and start groping them (and then are shocked when they get punched) have never been spanked.

With that said, if you fear that you will continue the cycle of abuse, instead of taking a more conservative approach to spanking, then it makes sense that you yourself don't want to spank your kids. Just don't think that everyone who spanks their kids is the type of person who will hit them at the drop of a hat (or plate).

To bring it in line with martial arts, think of it like this:
  • If your first reaction to any insult is to start throwing punches, this is assault
  • If you will never raise your fists in self-defense, even if someone is trying to kill you or your family, then you will not be able to protect yourself or your loved ones
  • If you will try to de-escalate situations when you can, but will throw fists when your safety (or your family's safety) is threatened, then that is what we call self-defense
To me, that's the difference between spanking and abuse.
 

skribs

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Back on topic, one of the key benefits for kids these days is just getting away from the phones and doing some activity of any sort.

Now that we're doing Zoom classes, those two aren't mutually exclusive.
 

Steve

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This is why I said very clearly in my post:
"It obviously shouldn't be anything that causes lasting harm. It shouldn't be your go-to option (more of a last resort). And it should be followed up with a discussion (once the kid has calmed down)."

If physical punishment is the go-to for any transgression, then yes - it will result in fear. If I dropped a plate by accident, my parents would tell me to clean it up. And I would clean it up and that would be the end of it.

If I broke a plate on accident, and they said to clean it up, and I said something like "I didn't do it" or "I'm not cleaning it up," then it would escalate. Let's just follow the first one (so we don't have to deal with every branch).
Strictly my opinions based on my experiences. Not to suggest this is an exclusive club, but like a lot of folks on this forum, I've raised a few kids. My opinion is that creating situations like this one is all on the parent. In other words, if a kid breaks a plate and the focus of the situation is on whether the kid will clean it up, the parent has lost control of that situation. I think parents (and adults in general) are teaching our kids something all the time. The question is, what are we teaching them?

There is no question who broke the plate, so it's a matter of what you're teaching the kid. Are you teaching them to not overreact, not lie, and help fix the mistake? Or are you teaching them that any mistake no matter how small is a big deal, and it's better to risk lying about it, because you're going to be punished anyway?

Empathy, kindness, integrity, and resilience. These are my priorities. I've found that coaching combined with positive and negative reinforcement is much more reliable, more effective, and less damaging to the kids. Instead of laying traps for the kids, "Did you get your math homework done?" Say, "Hey, I noticed you still have some math homework to do. What's your plan? Did you have some questions?" Instead of saying, "Did you break this plate?" Say, ""Oh no. You broke the plate. Be careful of the glass. I'll start cleaning that up. Go get the broom and dustpan and give me a hand."
  1. They would tell me they saw me do it. If I realize that I was caught in my lie, I would admit it and clean it up. If I was being stubborn, I'd say I didn't.
  2. If I continue to lie, they will start to take away privileges. I might get no computer games, no TV, sent to my room, etc. At this point, depending on the punishment, I might have to clean it up (to avoid losing more privileges) or go to my room. We'd have a talk later. If I was being obstinate, I'd say I didn't.
  3. If I continue to lie, continue to refuse to clean up my mess, and/or don't go to my room, then it escalates. Instead of no computer games for the rest of the night, it might be the weekend. We would go to Chuck E Cheese once a week if I was good; that might be taken away. At this point, if I was being stubborn, I might start arguing or yelling at my parents.
  4. If I were to continue to be disobedient and disrespectful, I would get a spanking. One important thing is that it was never directly part of the escalation. It was a sentence handed out to me wherever the argument was. But it was delivered in another room. This gave me time to reflect on what I'd done, and made it clear that it was a punishment, and not a reaction.
This escalation may seem perfectly reasonable to you, and I'll just first say that parenting is a zero sum game. No one's the perfect parent, and few kids emerge from childhood without a few physical and emotional scars. That's life. However, if this were me and my kids, and the above occurred, I would consider that a huge failure on my part as the parent. The four bullets above represent a failure on the part of the parent to control the situation, teach constructive life lessons, and allow the punishment to escalate far beyond the situation warrants. And frankly, I can't imagine any crime that would warrant hitting the child. Ever.
I also believe 100% that kids need to learn to control their tantrums. If the spanking is the consequence for breaking the plate, that's bad. If it's the consequence for losing control of yourself, that's a different story. That's not to say kids shouldn't have emotions or shouldn't react to things. But kids need to learn that there are lines that - if crossed - result in punishment. I don't have the data to back it up, but I imagine that most of the people who will just scream at a retail worker, or who will go up to living statues and start groping them (and then are shocked when they get punched) have never been spanked.
You're going to hit a kid for throwing a tantrum? You know how many times each of my kids threw a tantrum? Once each. You know how many times I beat them in their lives? Zero.
With that said, if you fear that you will continue the cycle of abuse, instead of taking a more conservative approach to spanking, then it makes sense that you yourself don't want to spank your kids. Just don't think that everyone who spanks their kids is the type of person who will hit them at the drop of a hat (or plate).
I totally think that folks who beat their kids for any reason are exactly like that. I don't judge most parenting, but I most definitely judge folks who beat their kids. Just no reason for it.
To bring it in line with martial arts, think of it like this:
  • If your first reaction to any insult is to start throwing punches, this is assault
  • If you will never raise your fists in self-defense, even if someone is trying to kill you or your family, then you will not be able to protect yourself or your loved ones
  • If you will try to de-escalate situations when you can, but will throw fists when your safety (or your family's safety) is threatened, then that is what we call self-defense
To me, that's the difference between spanking and abuse.
Spanking is abuse. There is no nexus to martial arts.
 

Gwai Lo Dan

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This is why I said very clearly in my post:
"It obviously shouldn't be anything that causes lasting harm. It shouldn't be your go-to option (more of a last resort). And it should be followed up with a discussion (once the kid has calmed down)."

If physical punishment is the go-to for any transgression, then yes - it will result in fear. If I dropped a plate by accident, my parents would tell me to clean it up. And I would clean it up and that would be the end of it.
...

Thanks for the comments.
 

skribs

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There is no question who broke the plate, so it's a matter of what you're teaching the kid. Are you teaching them to not overreact, not lie, and help fix the mistake? Or are you teaching them that any mistake no matter how small is a big deal, and it's better to risk lying about it, because you're going to be punished anyway?

This was entirely my point (which for some reason you disagreed with after). I was never spanked for any one action I did. If I was spanked, it was for cumulative actions for which I had many, many outs (given to my by my parents) and I refused at every level. If I admitted to breaking the plate, the only consequence is that I had to take responsibility and clean it up. If I refused to clean it up, there were other punishments given. Each successive punishment was not the result of breaking the plate, it was the result of my failure to own up to it and be respectful to my parents.

In fact, what I learned is exactly what you described. Mistakes can be made. Risking lying about it is what was going to get me in trouble. Lying about it was the only thing that got me in trouble.

I was never afraid after breaking a plate. As I got older, if I broke a plate, I would clean it up, and then tell my parents I broke a plate. I'd get "thanks for letting me know." That's because I was never spanked for anything I did to start an argument with my parents. I was spanked because of my continued disrespect and misbehavior.

You're going to hit a kid for throwing a tantrum? You know how many times each of my kids threw a tantrum? Once each. You know how many times I beat them in their lives? Zero.

Each kid is different. Sounds like your kids didn't need spankings. Prisons exist, and certainly some people deserve to go there. But they're also usually a last-resort. Most people don't need prisons. Most people should fear going to prison if they commit a crime.

I certainly needed the few I got. My nephew needed the few he got.

I'll also say there is clearly a difference between a spanking and a beating. In addition to what I've mentioned before (regarding beatings being an off-the-cuff response and spankings being handled more formally), a spanking is done in such a way that there's no lasting pain or marks. The pain would last literally a few seconds. It was a light slap with no follow-through, onto what it probably the most padded part of the human body. My friends and I would roughhouse and hit each other harder than that. I've taken harder hits in light-contact sparring than I ever took from a spanking.

I don't know what other people picture when they hear "spanking". I don't know if you're picturing several full-force hits with a belt or a weapon. If you are, then understand that that's not how spanking is for everyone. For me, it was more like one hit, like you'd use to kill a mosquito that's on yourself or your friend.

On the other hand, if you consider that single light hit to a well-padded to be the equivalent of a hard smack across the face, giving your kid a black eye, or repeatedly hitting them over and over again...then I'd say you've made this into a binary option instead of a scale with different degrees.
 

Steve

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There is no difference between spanking and beating a child. They both describe a parent hitting a child believing the child deserves it.
 

skribs

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There is no difference between spanking and beating a child. They both describe a parent hitting a child believing the child deserves it.

We've reached the root of the problem, then. You are incapable of understanding nuance. You are incapable of separating the physical and emotional damage of a full-fledged beating, from the benefits of a light spanking.

Personally, I think there's a big difference between something where the biggest consequence is 3 seconds of minor pain, and something where you have lasting scars or hospital trips to repair broken bones. By lumping them all in together, you've eliminated any chance of a rational discussion on the topic.
 

Steve

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We've reached the root of the problem, then. You are incapable of understanding nuance. You are incapable of separating the physical and emotional damage of a full-fledged beating, from the benefits of a light spanking.

Personally, I think there's a big difference between something where the biggest consequence is 3 seconds of minor pain, and something where you have lasting scars or hospital trips to repair broken bones. By lumping them all in together, you've eliminated any chance of a rational discussion on the topic.
Mostly right, though I would say I'm unwilling, not incapable.
 

skribs

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I don't think of them as exactly the same thing, but I do think they are both forms of abuse. Is spanking a kid the same as breaking his arm or slamming his head against the wall? No. However it is hitting someone who can't defend themselves.

What makes it "abuse". You've defined it as hitting someone who can't defend themselves. But I can guarantee with 100% certainty that my being spanked has not left me traumatized and it never even caused temporary damage.

At this point, calling it "abuse" seems nebulous.
 

skribs

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There are lots of forms of abuse and I agree it might not always be clear. I believe that striking someone who can't defend themselves, in the case of a young child, is a form of abuse. Regardless of how much damage it does or does not do to the victims.

Why is that abuse?
 

Steve

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Why is that abuse?
Skribs, you need to let this drop. You're out on a limb here without any support at all. No reasonable person agrees with you. This is an unreasonable position. It's outdated. Beating kids to teach them lessons is one of those things we look back on as a society and say, "damn, we should have known better ."
 

Earl Weiss

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Skribs, you need to let this drop. Y..................... Beating kids to teach them lessons is one of those things we look back on as a society and say, "damn, we should have known better ."
If you equate "Beating" and "Spanking" there is no further point to the discussion.
 

Steve

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If you equate "Beating" and "Spanking" there is no further point to the discussion.
Yes. Exactly what I was saying to @skribs. I don't think you get a pass for using a belt, paddle, or your open hand. You're still physically striking a child and that's just wrong.

It also isn't very effective parenting.

I do appreciate the folks who hit their kids identifying themselves. Good to know what's in people's hearts.
 

skribs

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Skribs, you need to let this drop. You're out on a limb here without any support at all. No reasonable person agrees with you. This is an unreasonable position. It's outdated. Beating kids to teach them lessons is one of those things we look back on as a society and say, "damn, we should have known better ."
The nice thing about recognizing authority, is I also recognize who has no authority over me.
 

skribs

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Good to know what's in people's hearts.

Oh if we're going to go there, this thread is going to be locked by noon. Because I've never advocated hurting a kid or beating a kid (which you seem to be incapable of understanding the difference...and if that's "unwilling" instead, it makes your position even weaker). I've already gotten a warning from the mods for the criticisms I can give based on your comments in this thread, so I won't give them again. But I don't see you having any sort of moral highground at all, nor do I see you as any sort of role model to look up to. In fact, it's quite the opposite. The more you tell me I'm wrong, based on what I know about you, the more I'm thinking I'm correct.
 

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