For All The Taekwondo Bashers The Real Truth On Taekwondo From My View

Steve

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I assumed it to mean the parents who refuse to spank their kids and call any kind of physical discipline to be physical abuse. Some kids just get stuck in a loop where they dig themselves a deeper and deeper hole where their behavior gets worse and worse, and they need a little bit of a shock to remind them that their behavior has consequences.

It obviously shouldn't be anything that causes lasting harm. It shouldn't be your go-to option (more of a last resort). And it should be followed up with a discussion (once the kid has calmed down).
There is a pretty significant body of research to suggest that corporal punishment causes lasting harm at worst, and just doesn't work, at best.

Interestingly, same thing in dog training. Ask a dog trainer if it's a good idea to swat your dog with a rolled up paper and see what they say.
 

skribs

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Whoa. That's uncalled for, man.

You're the one who brought it up, not me. You're the one who asked for further clarification of what I meant, when I was happy just to mark "disagree" and move on. I think that posting racist comments is uncalled for, but you seem proud to boast them.

There is a pretty significant body of research to suggest that corporal punishment causes lasting harm at worst, and just doesn't work, at best.

Interestingly, same thing in dog training. Ask a dog trainer if it's a good idea to swat your dog with a rolled up paper and see what they say.

My degree is in psychology. I know a thing or two about how the human mind works.

Also, I was spanked as a kid. I've seen situations in which my nephew had to be spanked. It always worked to stop the behavior. I was never traumatized or scared of my parents because of it. I've also had several dogs that I've loved and cherished. I've bopped them on the nose, and it's curbed that behavior. They were never scared of me, and still loved me.

There's this thing called "reality". You might want to try living in it.
 

Steve

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You're the one who brought it up, not me. You're the one who asked for further clarification of what I meant, when I was happy just to mark "disagree" and move on. I think that posting racist comments is uncalled for, but you seem proud to boast them.



My degree is in psychology. I know a thing or two about how the human mind works.

Also, I was spanked as a kid. I've seen situations in which my nephew had to be spanked. It always worked to stop the behavior. I was never traumatized or scared of my parents because of it. I've also had several dogs that I've loved and cherished. I've bopped them on the nose, and it's curbed that behavior. They were never scared of me, and still loved me.

There's this thing called "reality". You might want to try living in it.
So, you are a therapist? Do a lot of work with kids? A professional dog trainer? Are you even a parent? Just trying to figure out much weight your earnest opinion warrants over that of industry experts and my own relevant experience.

Edit, you know I was going to share some research links, but honestly, I think it would be easier for you to just show me your data. Can you point me to some data that supports corporal punishment for humans or even dogs? Something recent would be preferred.
 
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skribs

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So, you are a therapist? Do a lot of work with kids? A professional dog trainer? Are you even a parent? Just trying to figure out much weight your earnest opinion warrants over that of industry experts and my own relevant experience.

Edit, you know I was going to share some research links, but honestly, I think it would be easier for you to just show me your data. Can you point me to some data that supports corporal punishment for humans or even dogs? Something recent would be preferred.

You said: "There is a pretty significant body of research to suggest that corporal punishment causes lasting harm at worst, and just doesn't work, at best."

That is patently false. I've seen it work. It only takes one time of it working to prove your statement false. I've provided enough data to prove your point incorrect. You can move the goalposts all you want.
 

Steve

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You said: "There is a pretty significant body of research to suggest that corporal punishment causes lasting harm at worst, and just doesn't work, at best."

That is patently false. I've seen it work. It only takes one time of it working to prove your statement false. I've provided enough data to prove your point incorrect. You can move the goalposts all you want.
Sorry man. That’s just not how this works. As a person who purports to having some kind of degree in psychology, surely you know this. Also, you know that your post isn’t data. I will gladly consider any credible source you can provide. Any study from the last 20 or so years that concludes corporal punishment is useful and effective. Heck, I’d even settle for one that touts it over time outs.

all that said, unless you can actually produce some credible sources, I’m going to conclude you’re out on a limb. You aren’t individually credible to opine on any part of this, given you’re not a therapist (much less a pediatric therapist), not a professional dog trainer, and not a parent. You don’t have the experience or training with humans, with animals, or even as a person raising a child.

This doesn’t mean you’re wrong, it just means In order to be credible, that needs to come from a credible, outside source.

Edit to add that the significant research exists, independently of whether you or I say it does, I can provide some links, or you could just google it. I actually tried to find anything from anywhere at all credible supporting corporal punishment, and couldn’t find a thing. So, I’m counting on you.
 

skribs

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Sorry man. That’s just not how this works. As a person who purports to having some kind of degree in psychology, surely you know this. Also, you know that your post isn’t data. I will gladly consider any credible source you can provide. Any study from the last 20 or so years that concludes corporal punishment is useful and effective. Heck, I’d even settle for one that touts it over time outs.

all that said, unless you can actually produce some credible sources, I’m going to conclude you’re out on a limb. You aren’t individually credible to opine on any part of this, given you’re not a therapist (much less a pediatric therapist), not a professional dog trainer, and not a parent. You don’t have the experience or training with humans, with animals, or even as a person raising a child.

This doesn’t mean you’re wrong, it just means In order to be credible, that needs to come from a credible, outside source.

Edit to add that the significant research exists, independently of whether you or I say it does, I can provide some links, or you could just google it. I actually tried to find anything from anywhere at all credible supporting corporal punishment, and couldn’t find a thing. So, I’m counting on you.

My post quite literally is data. The fact you reject that data because of your own prejudices is not my failing.
 

Steve

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My post quite literally is data. The fact you reject that data because of your own prejudices is not my failing.
But is it credible? The issue isn't whether you are saying things or not. It is whether your statements are credible or not. And I'm patiently explaining to you that they are not credible alone. If you could point me to some credible support for your statements, we'd be off to the races. That you are to this point not willing to provide credible support for your statements is conspicuous.

Edit. Sorry, just to add that your posts aren't data. They're unqualified assertions. I would welcome data.
 
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skribs

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Edit. Sorry, just to add that your posts aren't data. They're unqualified assertions. I would welcome data.

My post had several points of data. My experience, my observations of my nephew, and my experience with several dogs. These are all data points of people or dogs that have had mild corporal punishment, with it having the desired effect on behavior and having no lasting repercussions.

You rejected that data. You gave excuses as to why (because I don't have kids myself, because you assume I've never worked with kids, and as it goes on you've moved the goalposts as to what would make me a "credible" source in your eyes). But my experiences are facts. You rejected those facts because they disagree with your opinions. When you reject facts that disagree with your opinions, two things happen:
  1. I know your opinion is not based on fact.
  2. I know you won't accept future facts I provide.
You've backed the conversation into a corner where there's no way to continue.

For what it's worth, social sciences are always opinions. There are facts involved, but any conclusions about what those facts mean or what to do with those facts are all opinions. There's a big difference between a physicist describing gravity and a psychologist describing childhood. There's a big difference between a geologist describing plate tectonics, and a sociologist describing a culture. Most social sciences are either opinions based on facts, or opinions based on other opinions. That opinion becomes less relevant when you ignore facts that disagree with it (like you have).
 

Steve

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My post had several points of data. My experience, my observations of my nephew, and my experience with several dogs. These are all data points of people or dogs that have had mild corporal punishment, with it having the desired effect on behavior and having no lasting repercussions.

You rejected that data. You gave excuses as to why (because I don't have kids myself, because you assume I've never worked with kids, and as it goes on you've moved the goalposts as to what would make me a "credible" source in your eyes). But my experiences are facts. You rejected those facts because they disagree with your opinions. When you reject facts that disagree with your opinions, two things happen:
  1. I know your opinion is not based on fact.
  2. I know you won't accept future facts I provide.
You've backed the conversation into a corner where there's no way to continue.

For what it's worth, social sciences are always opinions. There are facts involved, but any conclusions about what those facts mean or what to do with those facts are all opinions. There's a big difference between a physicist describing gravity and a psychologist describing childhood. There's a big difference between a geologist describing plate tectonics, and a sociologist describing a culture. Most social sciences are either opinions based on facts, or opinions based on other opinions. That opinion becomes less relevant when you ignore facts that disagree with it (like you have).
Okay man. Best of luck to you.
 

dvcochran

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So, you are a therapist? Do a lot of work with kids? A professional dog trainer? Are you even a parent? Just trying to figure out much weight your earnest opinion warrants over that of industry experts and my own relevant experience.

Edit, you know I was going to share some research links, but honestly, I think it would be easier for you to just show me your data. Can you point me to some data that supports corporal punishment for humans or even dogs? Something recent would be preferred.
Why don't you enlighten us with your relevant experience?
 

dvcochran

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Sorry man. That’s just not how this works. As a person who purports to having some kind of degree in psychology, surely you know this. Also, you know that your post isn’t data. I will gladly consider any credible source you can provide. Any study from the last 20 or so years that concludes corporal punishment is useful and effective. Heck, I’d even settle for one that touts it over time outs.

all that said, unless you can actually produce some credible sources, I’m going to conclude you’re out on a limb. You aren’t individually credible to opine on any part of this, given you’re not a therapist (much less a pediatric therapist), not a professional dog trainer, and not a parent. You don’t have the experience or training with humans, with animals, or even as a person raising a child.

This doesn’t mean you’re wrong, it just means In order to be credible, that needs to come from a credible, outside source.

Edit to add that the significant research exists, independently of whether you or I say it does, I can provide some links, or you could just google it. I actually tried to find anything from anywhere at all credible supporting corporal punishment, and couldn’t find a thing. So, I’m counting on you.
After a cursory search I do see it is difficult to find articles written from the proponents perspective. However, from the proponents perspective, it is interesting that everything I read points out that it is still federally legal and still used in the school systems of 21 states. Clearly, the majority is still in favor of using it.
To me it is much more about the 'how' of corporal punishment. I believe it effectiveness cannot be disputed.
 

Steve

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After a cursory search I do see it is difficult to find articles written from the proponents perspective. However, from the proponents perspective, it is interesting that everything I read points out that it is still federally legal and still used in the school systems of 21 states. Clearly, the majority is still in favor of using it.
To me it is much more about the 'how' of corporal punishment. I believe it effectiveness cannot be disputed.
Err.... 21 states is less than a majority of states.

And, as with @skribs you might believe that it can't be disputed, but the experts disagree with you.
 

skribs

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Err.... 21 states is less than a majority of states.

And, as with @skribs you might believe that it can't be disputed, but the experts disagree with you.

I wish you would have made two posts, because I completely agree with one of your statements, and completely disagree with the other.
 

Jaeimseu

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You said: "There is a pretty significant body of research to suggest that corporal punishment causes lasting harm at worst, and just doesn't work, at best."

That is patently false. I've seen it work. It only takes one time of it working to prove your statement false. I've provided enough data to prove your point incorrect. You can move the goalposts all you want.

The way I read the quote, the statement is that there is a large amount of research that shows lots of potential for negative outcomes. Your personal observations and anecdotal evidence doesn’t change the research. It simply means that in your experience corporal punishment has “worked.”

Most studies I have seen agree that corporal punishment has a positive effect on immediate compliance, but has many potential negative outcomes long term.

You haven’t observed any negative effects in yourself or in the dogs you’ve had, but I don’t believe you can definitively say that no negative outcomes exist. I was spanked occasionally as a child and believe that I turned out ok, too, but who knows if that’s totally true? People are quite often unaware of their own issues.


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skribs

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The way I read the quote, the statement is that there is a large amount of research that shows lots of potential for negative outcomes. Your personal observations and anecdotal evidence doesn’t change the research. It simply means that in your experience corporal punishment has “worked.”

Most studies I have seen agree that corporal punishment has a positive effect on immediate compliance, but has many potential negative outcomes long term.

You haven’t observed any negative effects in yourself or in the dogs you’ve had, but I don’t believe you can definitively say that no negative outcomes exist. I was spanked occasionally as a child and believe that I turned out ok, too, but who knows if that’s totally true? People are quite often unaware of their own issues.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Don't get me wrong, I am aware of plenty of my own issues. I just know that none of them are the result of trauma from being spanked.
 

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