Food for thought on the "Bai Jong" or "ready position"

[KPM]

Dont see that stance anywhere but kung fu. (which is fine. I am just arguing this take down idea that so far doesn't really add up)

Does you expert who endorses that stance use that stance?

I don't even understand what you are saying here. Don't see what stance anywhere but Kung Fu? The video was showing a wrestling stance! Does the expert use what stance? I'm sure the wrestler uses a wrestling stance...against wrestlers, and the Wing Chun guy obviously uses a side stance. So what are you even talking about?

 

[KPM]

It is a different expert for you to defer to about the vulnerability of leg positions to takedowns.

My guess is that the guy in the wing chun video was being paid to say something stupid that he didn't believe, was doing it as a favour to a friend, or something similar. Wrestlers tend to stand like wrestlers, which is a staggered stance, including our wrestling friend in the wing chun video.

Here we go again! I think you are arguing just for the sake of arguing. Again....your little video clip had nothing to do with Wing Chun. Again..... I pointed out how a wrestler compensates for having one leg forward to negate the vulnerability. Wing Chun doesn't do that. The guy in the original video was simply pointing out how easy it is for a good grappler to snag the forward leg if you stick it out there. That seems like pretty common sense to me. Which, again, suggests to me that you are just arguing for the sake of arguing.

 

[guy b]

Good point. I didn't mean to suggest someone would just stand there in YGKYM and wait for something to happen.

The video shows a wing chun person standing statically waiting for a wrestler to shoot in. This seems suicidal, however you are standing. Yet you seem to support the video. I'm not sure what point you are trying to make with it really?

I'm just saying it is just as valid of a stance for fighting as the "side stance" that some use

Fighting when? At range you need to be moving surely so you will be staggered 99% of the time. Do you mean fighting within punching range or in a clinch?

No, not at all. Absolutely I would be moving around and looking for an opening. But I may pause in YGKYM just as often as I would pause in Pin Sun Ma/Chum Kiu Ma (or whatever you want to call the side stance) or Bik Ma.

I don't see when you would ever pause in a stance in a fight?

I never said I would stubbornly maintain this stance. I pointed out how I can freely step out of this stance in any direction. If a standing grappling situation dictated that a staggered stance was better, then that's what I'd do! I have only said that the YGKYM is as valid a stance to use in fighting as any of the others....not that it takes the place of any of the others.

If you are coming from moving to not moving why would you bring your legs together in that way? When boxers set their feet to strike they stop in the advancing or retreating position they were in with staggered feet usually. Why bother bringing them together?

 

[KPM]

^^^^^^ I'm not letting you suck me into another one of your pointless arguments when it is clear you aren't even trying to see what I've been saying. You are showing your common tactic of nit-picking at every comment and trying to find fault rather then just carrying on a friendly conversation. I'm sure in short order you would accuse of being "dishonest" or a "coward" or some such thing. So I'm out. Not going down that road with you again. Steve....you should be proud of me!

 

[guy b]

Here we go again! I think you are arguing just for the sake of arguing. Again....your little video clip had nothing to do with Wing Chun. Again..... I pointed out how a wrestler compensates for having one leg forward to negate the vulnerability. Wing Chun doesn't do that. The guy in the original video was simply pointing out how easy it is for a good grappler to snag the forward leg if you stick it out there. That seems like pretty common sense to me. Which, again, suggests to me that you are just arguing for the sake of arguing.

Not at all, I honestly think it is worse to stand with both feet equal because it means you are very unstable to forwards backwards force (unless you lean or crouch) and because it means both legs are reachable for the shoot style takedown resulting in a double which is much less easy to negate, usually results in a worse fall, and results in your legs being passed which equals defeat unless you are good on the ground.

It is false I think to say that standing staggered puts one leg closer - your front defensive hand is after all in the same place. Staggered stance actually means your back leg is further away and getting both legs is more difficult.

 

[guy b]

^^^^^^ I'm not letting you suck me into another one of your pointless arguments when it is clear you aren't even trying to see what I've been saying. You are showing your common tactic of nit-picking at every comment and trying to find fault rather then just carrying on a friendly conversation. I'm sure in short order you would accuse of being "dishonest" or a "coward" or some such thing. So I'm out. Not going down that road with you again. Steve....you should be proud of me!

If you would like this kind of thing not to happen again then don't say silly things and run away when asked questions about what you said. Your ego is the problem. There's nothing wrong with admitting a mistake.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Dont see that stance anywhere but kung fu.

Not in Kung Fu but only in southern CMA. In the northern CMA, the cat stance <-> monkey stance is more commonly used.

IMO, the YGKYM was originally designed to be only used on the boat. Old saying said, "If you can't get both, you get one first, you then get the other one later". The side stance is vulnerable for single leg but the YGKYM is vulnerable for double legs. When you opponent gets your single leg, you can still extend your leg between his legs and play with your counters. When you opponent gets your double legs, you will be down and there will be no counters.

I hope people can learn something from this clip.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Of course not, he needs to move

The best way is to move in circle and try to move toward your opponent's side door. If your opponent has

- right leg forward, you want to move toward his right side.
- left leg forward, you want to move toward his left side.

The YGKYM is not suitable for circular stepping. Sometime even if you don't know how to attack, you still want to move. While you are moving, soon or later you will find opportunity to attack.

 

[dudewingchun]

Iv seen a few wing chuns lock in knees and have tight hips. Actually a lot do.

I use YGKYM when im in the clinch alot though slightly modified. Pressure is always changing so your stance/ body should always be adapting to every inch of pressure that changes. Sticky hands to me means the whole body not just hand techniques.

YJKYM is a good position to sprawl from I guess too.

I know Duncan Leung lineage use there heel in a way to explode off YJKYM in a way I havent seen any other lineages do.

What happened to that Wing chun fight club ? Did that dvd end up getting released ? The forum just died.

 

[Phobius]

Yes, I do. Does a tennis player have any problem moving around from a "squared" ready stance?

Problem however is that a tennis player does not stand in such stance. They use even weight distribution and bent knees, but in parallell. Not inwards bent. Reason being that they need to stand on even ground to move either way fast which you do not need in WC. One side is good enough. If we do not bend inwards then this is a modified stance and while being non-traditional I want to see why there would be a value in such a modified stance not existing in any martial art I know today.

Not saying there are no value, just not believing the tennis player argument to be valid sorry.

 

[Phobius]

Iv seen a few wing chuns lock in knees and have tight hips. Actually a lot do.

I use YGKYM when im in the clinch alot though slightly modified. Pressure is always changing so your stance/ body should always be adapting to every inch of pressure that changes. Sticky hands to me means the whole body not just hand techniques.

YJKYM is a good position to sprawl from I guess too.

I know Duncan Leung lineage use there heel in a way to explode off YJKYM in a way I havent seen any other lineages do.

What happened to that Wing chun fight club ? Did that dvd end up getting released ? The forum just died.

Now here I agree in a clinch it would seem like easy way to move from YGKYM into a sprawl.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

While the "outward bending knee" can be used to stop a foot sweep, the "inward bending knee" is vulnerable for a foot sweep. The best angle for foot sweep is to kick your leg behind your opponent's heel toward his toes direction. Since the YGKYM bends the knee inward (heel out), your opponent doesn't need to turn much to line up his foot behind your heel for his sweep.

IMO, the YGKYM has the following weakness:

1. vulnerable for foot sweep.
2. vulnerable for double legs.
3. vulnerable for low side kick behind the knee joint.
4. difficult to move in circle.
5. base is too small.
6. ...

 

[guy b.]

While the "outward bending knee" can be used to stop a foot sweep, the "inward bending knee" is vulnerable for a foot sweep. The best angle for foot sweep is to kick your leg behind your opponent's heel toward his toes direction. Since the YGKYM bends the knee inward (heel out), your opponent doesn't need to turn much to line up his foot behind your heel for his sweep.

IMO, the YGKYM has the following weakness:

1. vulnerable for foot sweep.
2. vulnerable for double legs.
3. vulnerable for low side kick behind the knee joint.
4. difficult to move in circle.
5. base is too small.
6. ...

Absolutely correct from grappling point of view.

That is why it is best understood as a training stance, not a stance to use in fighting.

 

[guy b.]

Iv seen a few wing chuns lock in knees and have tight hips. Actually a lot do.

Who stands on heels in the training stance with locked knees as KPM said? Do these people use the training stance as a fighting stance?

 

[KPM]

If you would like this kind of thing not to happen again then don't say silly things and run away when asked questions about what you said. Your ego is the problem. There's nothing wrong with admitting a mistake.

 

[KPM]

The YGKYM is not suitable for circular stepping. .

Why would you say that? It is just as suitable for circular stepping as the side stance.

 

[KPM]

While the "outward bending knee" can be used to stop a foot sweep, the "inward bending knee" is vulnerable for a foot sweep. The best angle for foot sweep is to kick your leg behind your opponent's heel toward his toes direction. Since the YGKYM bends the knee inward (heel out), your opponent doesn't need to turn much to line up his foot behind your heel for his sweep.

---Wing Chun does its best not to be in the range of a that kind of foot sweep. Would not the lead leg in a "Bik Ma" with the knee and foot angled inward be just as vulnerable to the foot sweep?


IMO, the YGKYM has the following weakness:

1. vulnerable for foot sweep.

---The forward stance is also vulnerable to a foot sweep. Every position is vulnerable to something. There is no "unstoppable technique." The side stance is also vulnerable to a foot sweep, depending on the situation.


2. vulnerable for double legs.

---And the forward stance is vulnerable to single legs. Again, every position is vulnerable to something.

3. vulnerable for low side kick behind the knee joint.

---And the forward stance is vulnerable to a round kick behind the knee joint. The side stance is also vulnerable to a low side kick behind the knee joint.

4. difficult to move in circle.

---Not the way I do it!

5. base is too small.

---Not the way I do it!

 

[KPM]

Problem however is that a tennis player does not stand in such stance. They use even weight distribution and bent knees, but in parallell. Not inwards bent.

---Sure. But I'm not talking about a YGKYM with knees turned so far in as to be "2 fists width" apart. I'm talking about a very natural inward angling of the legs for stability without lose of mobility.


Reason being that they need to stand on even ground to move either way fast which you do not need in WC.

---Why would you not need to move fast in either way in Wing Chun? That's one of the advantages of the YGKYM. Pure potential. You should be able to move fast and freely in ANY direction.

 

[KPM]

Who stands on heels in the training stance with locked knees as KPM said? Do these people use the training stance as a fighting stance?

---This guy for one! His knees may not be clamped in, but look how far he is leaned back. His shoulders are behind his hips. His weight can't help but be back near his heels. And he got taken down, not because of his stance, but because he charged straight in on a grappler that ducked under his attack and took him down.

 

[guy b]

How does the training stance get transported from wherever you start to a position directly in front of the opponent? How and why does it remain static in this position for any period of time, given what a fight is actually like? What is the advantage of being in it, given that the single reason identified so far (invulnerability to a wrestler shooting in), is irrelevant from wing chun punching range?