Food for thought on the "Bai Jong" or "ready position"
- Thread starter KPM
- Start date
It is valuable for both training, and for baiting. Stand just outside your opponent's range in YGKYM looking like a WC dork and wait for him to commit and launch an attack towards you. When he moves, you move ...shoot forward, close the distance in a single explosive step and get inside where you can apply your "science of infighting"!
Personally, I prefer not to stand still in YGKYM, but in my view, YGKYM is inside every other stance and step. There is the same adduction, structure and so on. Every time you turn or circle-step through to the opposite lead, you pass right through it. The adduction, hip, spine and head positioning is still there even in advancing step. Others may not notice it, but YGKYM is always there, just like proper elbow position or covering centerline for the hands.
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I agree, and this is why we spend so much time in it.
- Thread Starter
- #65
----Ok. I've probably been over-reacting recently. So I'll give it another shot and see how far it goes.
The video shows a wing chun person standing statically waiting for a wrestler to shoot in. This seems suicidal, however you are standing. Yet you seem to support the video. I'm not sure what point you are trying to make with it really?
---It's a demo. It is simply showing a grappler shooting in on a Wing Chun guy in a side stance. They may very well have been moving around leading up to this point.
Fighting when? At range you need to be moving surely so you will be staggered 99% of the time. Do you mean fighting within punching range or in a clinch?
---Any fighting. Fighting in general. Why try and complicate things?
I don't see when you would ever pause in a stance in a fight?
---Watch any sparring match. You will see many "pauses" as the fighters regroup, size each up, transition to something else, etc.
If you are coming from moving to not moving why would you bring your legs together in that way?
---You mean in YGKYM or the side stance? I guess maybe its a stylistic choice. Do you ALWAYS keep one leg forward? You never use the side stance? The TWC guys and other groups fight from a side stance a lot. So does Pin Sun.
When boxers set their feet to strike they stop in the advancing or retreating position they were in with staggered feet usually. Why bother bringing them together?
---Boxers only really train for one stance....that staggered feet stance.
I honestly think it is worse to stand with both feet equal because it means you are very unstable to forwards backwards force (unless you lean or crouch) and because it means both legs are reachable for the shoot style takedown resulting in a double which is much less easy to negate, usually results in a worse fall, and results in your legs being passed which equals defeat unless you are good on the ground.
---But as I have said already, no stance is perfect. There is no unstoppable technique. Standing with one leg forward makes you unstable to a sideways force. If pressed, you simply step to recover. Standing with one leg forward makes you more vulnerable to a single leg. You can sprawl easier from legs in a feet parallel position than from a one leg forward position if it comes to that.
It is false I think to say that standing staggered puts one leg closer - your front defensive hand is after all in the same place. Staggered stance actually means your back leg is further away and getting both legs is more difficult.
---But your front defensive hand is a lot higher than your lead leg. Not like a wrestling stance where they are crouched forward defending that lead leg. The guy in the original video showed how easy it was to dive under the lead hand and snag the lead leg.
---I've said only that the YGKYM (or the side stance) makes you less vulnerable to a single leg....as shown in the video. The grappler is going to have to shoot even further in to get the double on someone in one of those stances. And as you pointed out...your front defensive hand is out there. You may be right that the consequences of someone getting the double leg on you are worse than the single leg. But I do think standing with parallel legs is going to make it a bit more difficult for the grappler to get a takedown in general.
The video shows a wing chun person standing statically waiting for a wrestler to shoot in. This seems suicidal, however you are standing. Yet you seem to support the video. I'm not sure what point you are trying to make with it really?
---It's a demo. It is simply showing a grappler shooting in on a Wing Chun guy in a side stance. They may very well have been moving around leading up to this point.
Fighting when? At range you need to be moving surely so you will be staggered 99% of the time. Do you mean fighting within punching range or in a clinch?
---Any fighting. Fighting in general. Why try and complicate things?
I don't see when you would ever pause in a stance in a fight?
---Watch any sparring match. You will see many "pauses" as the fighters regroup, size each up, transition to something else, etc.
If you are coming from moving to not moving why would you bring your legs together in that way?
---You mean in YGKYM or the side stance? I guess maybe its a stylistic choice. Do you ALWAYS keep one leg forward? You never use the side stance? The TWC guys and other groups fight from a side stance a lot. So does Pin Sun.
When boxers set their feet to strike they stop in the advancing or retreating position they were in with staggered feet usually. Why bother bringing them together?
---Boxers only really train for one stance....that staggered feet stance.
I honestly think it is worse to stand with both feet equal because it means you are very unstable to forwards backwards force (unless you lean or crouch) and because it means both legs are reachable for the shoot style takedown resulting in a double which is much less easy to negate, usually results in a worse fall, and results in your legs being passed which equals defeat unless you are good on the ground.
---But as I have said already, no stance is perfect. There is no unstoppable technique. Standing with one leg forward makes you unstable to a sideways force. If pressed, you simply step to recover. Standing with one leg forward makes you more vulnerable to a single leg. You can sprawl easier from legs in a feet parallel position than from a one leg forward position if it comes to that.
It is false I think to say that standing staggered puts one leg closer - your front defensive hand is after all in the same place. Staggered stance actually means your back leg is further away and getting both legs is more difficult.
---But your front defensive hand is a lot higher than your lead leg. Not like a wrestling stance where they are crouched forward defending that lead leg. The guy in the original video showed how easy it was to dive under the lead hand and snag the lead leg.
---I've said only that the YGKYM (or the side stance) makes you less vulnerable to a single leg....as shown in the video. The grappler is going to have to shoot even further in to get the double on someone in one of those stances. And as you pointed out...your front defensive hand is out there. You may be right that the consequences of someone getting the double leg on you are worse than the single leg. But I do think standing with parallel legs is going to make it a bit more difficult for the grappler to get a takedown in general.
Danny T
Senior Master
Specific stances are for training.
In a fight you will be moving unless clinched or pressed against something and for those "short moments" stationary other than that; stance is but a snap shot in time.
Dynamic mobility and stability is key.
In a fight you will be moving unless clinched or pressed against something and for those "short moments" stationary other than that; stance is but a snap shot in time.
Dynamic mobility and stability is key.
- Thread Starter
- #67
I agree Danny. My point has been only that YGKYM shouldn't be disregarded as a stance that can show up in and be useful as one of those "short moments" or "snap shots." It doesn't have to be just a "training stance." And as Steve pointed out, everyone passes through it if only for a split second when doing their Wing Chun! I just believe that it is just as valid as the side stance for any place in which the side stance would make an appearance.
But again, to be clear, maybe what I am using as the YGKYM is not quite what others are calling the "training stance." In a past discussion on another forum someone pointed out that he made a distinction between YGKYM...which he described as a narrow "clamping" stance for training....and a "neutral stance" for application or fighting. I don't make that distinction. To me they are just variations of the YGKYM. To me, "neutral stance" implies feet parallel and knees pointing straight out like a karate horse stance. I still have my knees directed inward and feet slightly converging.
KPM, do you have any clip that shows someone moves from a YGKYM stance into another YGKYM stance either
- forward,
- side way, or
- backward?
Do you think such footwork is fast enough to chase someone who moves back in fast speed?
- forward,
- side way, or
- backward?
Do you think such footwork is fast enough to chase someone who moves back in fast speed?
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- Thread Starter
- #69
At some point I will try and make a video of myself showing how I use the YGKYM. But no, I don't think that would be fast enough to pursue someone. I would move out of YGKYM into at Bik Ma and using chasing steps. I would likely not step from one YGKYM into another. YGKYM is just a transition point. Just like the side stance or Chum Kiu Ma is a transition point.
drop bear
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The wrestler in the clip. Brian seraiah wood. Dosent use that stance.
He uses a normal stance just like everyone else. So my view would be that the kung fu stance that is supposed to give you an advantage. Probably dosent give you one in regards to stopping take downs.
Look if he could have made that stance work the good for him. I don't want that stance to fail. If it was better I would go learn it myself. But the proof is in the pudding.
If nobody can make it work to stop takedowns. Don't use that stance against take downs.
He uses a normal stance just like everyone else. So my view would be that the kung fu stance that is supposed to give you an advantage. Probably dosent give you one in regards to stopping take downs.
Look if he could have made that stance work the good for him. I don't want that stance to fail. If it was better I would go learn it myself. But the proof is in the pudding.
If nobody can make it work to stop takedowns. Don't use that stance against take downs.
I'm brand new to WT and the YGKYM stance, so I have no useful opinion on its usefulness in stopping takedowns. I will toss out a few random thoughts for whatever they're worth ...
A wrestlers stance is at least as much about offense as defense. Whatever the advantages or disadvantages of a square stance in stopping takedowns, it isn't effective for taking shots. That by itself would be reason enough for most wrestlers to use a staggered stance. However, wrestlers do learn a square stance for defensive purposes.
The rationale in the video for using the squared stance is that the wrestler has to get past more of the chunners punching range to reach his legs. Maybe later in the planned video they were going to discuss the relative strengths and weaknesses of the different stances once the wrestler succeeds in getting past those punches.
The video clip was pretty short. I would love to watch more of the intended complete video to see where they were going with it.
Regardless of whether the chunner starts in a square or staggered stance, mobility is going to be the key to stopping the shot. Pure forward movement is going to give the wrestler the range he needs for the takedown. Backwards movement isn't the chunners forte. That means angular/circular movement (while maintaining barriers with the arms and striking) is the goal. My general experience with angular movement at close range to an opponent indicates that my stance relative to the opponent (more squared or more staggered) can shift back and forth in an instant based on how each of us is moving. I don't have the experience to say if that applies in WT/WC.
One thought on the WC/WT stances in general after a few weeks - it seems that the difference between a well rooted WC/WT stance and one that is easily off-balanced involves very subtle adjustments that are probably not very visible to the beginner. This is in contrast to wrestling, where even a beginner can pick up a reasonably solid stance in fairly short order.
A wrestlers stance is at least as much about offense as defense. Whatever the advantages or disadvantages of a square stance in stopping takedowns, it isn't effective for taking shots. That by itself would be reason enough for most wrestlers to use a staggered stance. However, wrestlers do learn a square stance for defensive purposes.
The rationale in the video for using the squared stance is that the wrestler has to get past more of the chunners punching range to reach his legs. Maybe later in the planned video they were going to discuss the relative strengths and weaknesses of the different stances once the wrestler succeeds in getting past those punches.
The video clip was pretty short. I would love to watch more of the intended complete video to see where they were going with it.
Regardless of whether the chunner starts in a square or staggered stance, mobility is going to be the key to stopping the shot. Pure forward movement is going to give the wrestler the range he needs for the takedown. Backwards movement isn't the chunners forte. That means angular/circular movement (while maintaining barriers with the arms and striking) is the goal. My general experience with angular movement at close range to an opponent indicates that my stance relative to the opponent (more squared or more staggered) can shift back and forth in an instant based on how each of us is moving. I don't have the experience to say if that applies in WT/WC.
One thought on the WC/WT stances in general after a few weeks - it seems that the difference between a well rooted WC/WT stance and one that is easily off-balanced involves very subtle adjustments that are probably not very visible to the beginner. This is in contrast to wrestling, where even a beginner can pick up a reasonably solid stance in fairly short order.
In Chinese wrestling, the "cross stance" is commonly used. You have right leg forward but you have left hand forward. This way, both of your arms will have the same reach.The wrestler in the clip. Brian seraiah wood. Dosent use that stance.
- body lean 45 degree forward.
- nose should not pass toes.
- back of the head should not pass back heel.
- both hands keep loose fist.
- front hand and back hand are 10 cm apart.
- 40% weight on front leg, 60% weight on back leg.
- both hands between nose and mouth level height.
- ...
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PiedmontChun
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Regarding the video posted by Kung Fu Wang- If you pause the video RIGHT at 1:50, his stance really is not square any more as there is one leg significantly ahead of the other. He was in the process of shooting forward versus just standing there in a static frontal stance (something else altogether that is cringe worthy in some WC youtube videos).
The grappler was still able to get in deep enough to reach and wrap up both legs @ 1:51 anyway. I realize the shoot does happen quickly especially from a skilled wrestler, but the WC guy almost walked into it with his guard up for a body / head strike that never came, and he didn't do anything to recover once it started. I saw no jum elbow into the grappler's neck / collarbone, no downward pressure on the grappler or driving the front leg backward (chum kiu step) to make the double leg grab harder to complete, all things that are found right within the first 2 WC forms.
I agree with Geezer that the YCKYM stance is essentially present in all the WC footwork. Regarding YCKYM being mobile, I think exploding forward from that stance is just as effective as stepping forward from a lead leg stance. It also gives options in terms of being less committed and easier to move laterally. So therefore it only makes sense, to me, that it should be trained and viewed as more than just a training stance.
The grappler was still able to get in deep enough to reach and wrap up both legs @ 1:51 anyway. I realize the shoot does happen quickly especially from a skilled wrestler, but the WC guy almost walked into it with his guard up for a body / head strike that never came, and he didn't do anything to recover once it started. I saw no jum elbow into the grappler's neck / collarbone, no downward pressure on the grappler or driving the front leg backward (chum kiu step) to make the double leg grab harder to complete, all things that are found right within the first 2 WC forms.
I agree with Geezer that the YCKYM stance is essentially present in all the WC footwork. Regarding YCKYM being mobile, I think exploding forward from that stance is just as effective as stepping forward from a lead leg stance. It also gives options in terms of being less committed and easier to move laterally. So therefore it only makes sense, to me, that it should be trained and viewed as more than just a training stance.
- Thread Starter
- #75
We use it as a "ready stance" when facing off with an opponent. It can be the natural stance assumed with stepping to the side to angle around an opponent while looking for an opening. Upon contact with the opponent it results from a pivot when used to deflect or do a Kum Na move, etc.
drop bear
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The difference would be that they use it successfully if they do it has merit.
drop bear
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This is not a style thing. You can't punch effectively and defend takedowns effectively at the same time.
To punch your hands have to be away from your hips to defend takedowns your hands have to be near your hips.
That is not a stance thing. There is no stance fix.
Us too.
From what I've seen in pictures, William Cheung's TWC guys also assume a sidling stance as a pre-fighting posture or "ready position". Too me that seems to limit your options though, since if you are already turned to one side, you can only turn one way, ...to the other side.
- Thread Starter
- #80
Exactly! That's why I say a YGKYM accomplishes the same thing and doesn't commit you to one side.
