Final Stance in Twirling Wings

[NTDeveloper]

Twirling Wings, according to my understanding, is executed as follows:

Against a stiff arm left rear shoulder grab:

1. Step your left foot behind your right foot into a twist stance.
2. Unwind into a left forward bow facing 6:00 with a left outward block and a right horizontal elbow to the oppponents' ribs.
3. Check with your right hand and deliver a left horizontal elbow to the opponents' ribs while you pivot into a right forward bow facing 9:00.

Is this correct? I have seen descriptions of the technique where you end up in a horse stance facing 9:00 but I don't see how this could be correct (unless you reposition your feet, but I can't see why such repositioning would be necessary).

Thanks for your comments.

 

[Seabrook]

Twirling Wings, according to my understanding, is executed as follows:

Against a stiff arm left rear shoulder grab:

1. Step your left foot behind your right foot into a twist stance.
2. Unwind into a left forward bow facing 6:00 with a left outward block and a right horizontal elbow to the oppponents' ribs.
3. Check with your right hand and deliver a left horizontal elbow to the opponents' ribs while you pivot into a right forward bow facing 9:00.

Is this correct? I have seen descriptions of the technique where you end up in a horse stance facing 9:00 but I don't see how this could be correct (unless you reposition your feet, but I can't see why such repositioning would be necessary).

Thanks for your comments.

I teach the technique for a rear two hand choke and the opponent is pulling you back. You step back to a reverse bow by taking the angle of least resistance and you PIN the opponent's left hand so it doesn't run into your face as you are stepping back. I think the technique is potentially dangerous without the pin.

About the stances, you unwind into a forward bow on the first elbow to the kidneys and/or ribs, and then shift your weight into a horse stance as you come back with the left elbow.

Hope that helps.

Jamie Seabrook
www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com

 

[parkerkarate]

Twirling Wings, according to my understanding, is executed as follows:

Against a stiff arm left rear shoulder grab:

1. Step your left foot behind your right foot into a twist stance.
2. Unwind into a left forward bow facing 6:00 with a left outward block and a right horizontal elbow to the oppponents' ribs.
3. Check with your right hand and deliver a left horizontal elbow to the opponents' ribs while you pivot into a right forward bow facing 9:00.

Is this correct? I have seen descriptions of the technique where you end up in a horse stance facing 9:00 but I don't see how this could be correct (unless you reposition your feet, but I can't see why such repositioning would be necessary).

Thanks for your comments.

I learned it exactly how you have described it. As for the horse stance, I have never seen it or heard of it taught like that.

 

[KenpoTess]

Here's how we teach it

1. TWIRLING WINGS (Rear stiff two‑hand neck or shoulder grab)


1. Standing naturally, tuck your chin (to help nullify the effects of a possible choke), an step back counterclockwise with your left foot (toward 5 o'clock) into a left rear twist stance. Simultaneously cock your right fist (palm up) on your right hip, and your left fist (palm facing down) across your waist and over your right fist.

2. Pivot counterclockwise into a left forward bow (facing 6 o'clock) while executing a left vertical outward block at or above the outside of your opponent's left elbow, and strike simultaneously "with" a right inward horizontal elbow to the back of your opponent's left lower ribcage. This should cause your opponent to turn clockwise with his stomach to jutting forward.

3. Pivot to your right (clockwise) into a left fighting horse (facing 9 o'clock) as you deliver a left inward horizontal elbow strike to the front of your opponent's left lower ribcage. Simultaneously have your right hand check high as it braces up and against your opponent's left arm. Be sure to have your left knee check, and/or buckle the inside of your opponent's left knee. (Your opponent should bend forward at the waist as he stumbles backward.)


NOTES ON: TWIRLING WINGS



1. NAME: "Wings" is a symbolic term referring to the elbows. In this particular technique your elbows (wings) literally are twirling into your opponent's torso.



2. THEME: An opponent approaching from the rear is dangerous because the specific nature of his attack is unknown. However, once your opponent places both of his hands on you, you are able to FEEL the nature of his attack. FEELING your opponent's hands gives you a clue. At this point the unknown becomes semi-known. You may step to the rear, as well as outside of your opponent's weapons with greater confidence because the unknown becomes known during the transition. You know that you can create an Angle of Cancellation not only from your Point of View of the attack, but also from your opponent's Point of View of the attack. To achieve this, you must act swiftly and counter using the principle of "WITH" rather than "AND".



3. THE ATTACK: The IDEAL PHASE of this technique begins with your opponent to the rear. It is a two-hand shoulder grab near your neck with your opponent's arms straight. His right hand grabs your right shoulder and his left hand grabs your left shoulder. Some additional WHAT IF factors are:



a. Your opponent pulls you toward him.

b. Your opponent pushes you away.

c. Your opponent chokes you with both of his hands.

d. Your opponent releases the grab of one of his hands.

e. His left foot is forward.

f. His right foot is forward.



4. Study how the proper transition into a forward bow enhances your initial elbow strike.



5. Consider how you may deal with the semi-unknown depth factors on your initial move.



6. On your initial counter be sure to "block at or above the elbow".



7. Your second strike must be coupled with an active check against his arm.



8. You are moving into the semi-unknown. Therefore, the exact positioning of your legs in relationship to your opponent's legs will not always be known. Study how you can positionally check with your knees and prevent possible ANGLES OF ENTRY into your groin.

 

[Michael Billings]

Good Tess ... now the extension and why we don't rotate on through to the forward bow?

-Michael

 

[NTDeveloper]

Good Tess ... now the extension and why we don't rotate on through to the forward bow?

-Michael

I would be very interested in knowing the answer to this question; also, you can't pivot from a forward bow facing 6:00 into a horse stance facing 9:00 without repositiong the feet. Maybe I'm missing something here...

 

[Touch Of Death]

I teach the technique for a rear two hand choke and the opponent is pulling you back. You step back to a reverse bow by taking the angle of least resistance and you PIN the opponent's left hand so it doesn't run into your face as you are stepping back. I think the technique is potentially dangerous without the pin.

About the stances, you unwind into a forward bow on the first elbow to the kidneys and/or ribs, and then shift your weight into a horse stance as you come back with the left elbow.

Hope that helps.

Jamie Seabrook
www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com

Pin his hand with what? Why not become neutral instead of the horse?
Sean

 

[Goldendragon7]

Good Tess ... now the extension and why we don't rotate on through to the forward bow?
-Michael

BILLINGS!!!!!!!!!! ........ now shush up!

:whip:

 

[psi_radar]

Though I love this technique, the attack is highly unlikely--it's just too easy to get out of with a head neck/stance rotation. The attack, as I recalled it, was a stiff double-handed choke from the rear. With the attack you described, my conclusions are the same. Most people can naturally work against the forces here with instincts, unless:

A) Someone was holding the defenders legs/have control of the body

B) There was another balance point for the person being attacked, like a wall

c) The attacked was on the ground (AH HAH!)

Conclusions: Try this technique on the ground or in different situations.Try a roll with the first elbow. The four primary fingers can choke you, but not if the rest of the body isn't controlled. Even the most inexperienced criminal can figure that one out. A headlock would be a more likely scenario. If they don't have that level of commitment, well, perhaps breaking their ribs isn't such a good idea.

To keep the thread on track, you settle into a neutral bow with the left elbow. Emphasis on settle. And tear and penetrate. Don' forget the check with the right. All that good stuff.

 

[Seabrook]

Pin his hand with what? Why not become neutral instead of the horse?
Sean

Sean,

You pin his left hand with your right as he is choking you and pulling you back. It also causes a great deal of pain...LOL. You don't have to worry about the opponent's right arm because you are cancelling the opponent's width as you step back and clear the opponent's left arm off and deliver the right inward elbow strike while pivoting to the forward bow.

Without the pin, you run the risk of the opponent's left arm running into your face.


Jamie Seabrook
www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com

 

[Ray]

The initial Twirling Wings that I learned was nearly as described in Tess's notes (there was no initial cocking of the hands). There was no pin in it.

 

[Michael Billings]

BILLINGS!!!!!!!!!! ........ now shush up!

:whip:

Too much a question like you would ask EH? ... and proud of it!

-Michael

 

[Seabrook]

The initial Twirling Wings that I learned was nearly as described in Tess's notes (there was no initial cocking of the hands). There was no pin in it.

That was the way I initially learned it as well. But after seeing Larry Tatum do it with the pin, and practicing that way on a partner, I would never consider doing it without the pin. The pin can snap the opponent's wrist, and like I mentioned earlier, prevents the opponent's left arm from running into your face.

Cheers,

Jamie Seabrook
www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com

 

[Goldendragon7]

Too much a question like you would ask EH? ... and proud of it!

-Michael

hmmmm, well, I guess you are right... LOL:uhyeah: (smart alek)!

 

[Seabrook]

Too much a question like you would ask EH? ... and proud of it!

-Michael

Careful with the "eh's" Billings.....it sounds like you are making fun of us Canadians!!

BTW - Kenpo rocks, eh?

Jamie Seabrook
www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com

 

[Touch Of Death]

That was the way I initially learned it as well. But after seeing Larry Tatum do it with the pin, and practicing that way on a partner, I would never consider doing it without the pin. The pin can snap the opponent's wrist, and like I mentioned earlier, prevents the opponent's left arm from running into your face.

Cheers,

Jamie Seabrook
www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com

Is that the ideal phase of that tech in the LTKKA?

 

[Seabrook]

Is that the ideal phase of that tech in the LTKKA?

That's how Mr. Tatum does it on his Purple Belt DVD, so I think the answer is yes. Like I said, I find it so much more effective.


Jamie Seabrook
www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com

 

[Touch Of Death]

That's how Mr. Tatum does it on his Purple Belt DVD, so I think the answer is yes. Like I said, I find it so much more effective.


Jamie Seabrook
www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com

Sounds good to me, I suppose. If your hands are at your side to begin with, it could be construed as an "and", but so to would cocking at the hip. I'll play with that one.
Sean

 

[Goldendragon7]

Though I love this technique, the attack is highly unlikely

I beg to differ..... I think this is a very likely technique. As in any of the "scenarios" that we teach, it is a possibility and has many functions. How can anyone say that this technique or that technique is unlikely, or won't happen, fact is I have personally seen this attack on the street.

Keep in mind that this is only one option in a SYSTEM of self defense variations. It is in the system for a reason, actually several reasons. It all depends on where you are on the "ladder of knowledge" as to what you learn from it. To the beginner coordination is a main factor as well as starting the bank of knowledge variations and skill development. As Mr. Parker taught us.... "What is truth for one may not be truth for another"

--it's just too easy to get out of with a head neck/stance rotation.

While for you, that may be true, but something else may work better for another. We just don't know what will work for each different individual in any given circumstance so, in the beginning so we create these BASE or standardized "Point of Reference" techniques. See it has already served one of it's functions...... we are discussing and studying it!

The attack, as I recalled it, was a stiff double-handed choke from the rear. With the attack you described, my conclusions are the same. Most people can naturally work against the forces here with instincts, unless:

A) Someone was holding the defenders legs/have control of the body

B) There was another balance point for the person being attacked, like a wall

C) The attacked was on the ground (AH HAH!)

Wow, my goodness, you have brought up a lot of good points........ so ..... then...... where do we start at to learn to deal with all these different points?

Conclusions: Try this technique on the ground or in different situations.Try a roll with the first elbow. The four primary fingers can choke you, but not if the rest of the body isn't controlled. Even the most inexperienced criminal can figure that one out. A headlock would be a more likely scenario. If they don't have that level of commitment, well, perhaps breaking their ribs isn't such a good idea.

To keep the thread on track, you settle into a neutral bow with the left elbow. Emphasis on settle. And tear and penetrate. Don' forget the check with the right. All that good stuff.

Again, a lot of good points to study, ponder and to TRY, particularly in the "what if" phase which follows the ideal phase or initial stage of learning any particular technique.

:asian:

 

[Michael Billings]

The pinning check is a "What If" when I teach it (especially since I love Contact Manipulations). You can insert a shoulder lift (shrug), on the side you will be executing the first move with also. It pretty much restricts the amount of pressure the opponent can apply, and it prevents their letting go and punching you in the face as you pivot ... as does the pinning check Mr. Tatum has as his Ideal.

-Michael