Fees & Certificates

[Last Fearner]

if you want to get your daughter a KKW certificate and want her to still be able to train with her current master, my suggestion, suck it up, pay the fee and move on. If I had a student that went around me to get their rank after all the time and work I had put into them then they would be looking for another school.

I'm a bit more with wade on this one. Others have given some good advice as well, but the key is if you "want her to still be able to train with her current master." There are often avenues where a student can switch schools and find the "cheapest" tuition, and lowest test fees. If it is a good school with quality instructors, and the certificates are legit, then that is fine. However, do not mistake the higher prices with greed. This is true in some cases, but more of a problem if you are simply training from an instructor who is unqualified to teach, or issue rank certificates.

It does not matter what I charge for tuition or test fees. I make that decision based solely on operating costs of my business, and my ability to earn a living above and beyond those costs. I don't owe ANY student a detailed explanation or account of where the money goes. If they ask why my prices might be higher than Joe Blow's down the street, or Master Stoker's in Texas, I will honestly explain to them that Joe Blow is not as experienced and qualified as I am so they get what they pay for there, and as far as I know, Master Stoker is an excellent instructor in Texas, not in my town in Michigan. I don't know what the economy is in other areas, what other instructors do to supplement their income, or if they have a family to raise. I am a full time instructor - it is my profession - my career, my lively-hood, and my fees are commensurate to what I offer my students.

Ed, you are not being ripped off, unless you feel that the quality of instruction is not worth what you are paying. If there are better instructors in your area who charge the same or less, you might consider changing schools. If you have to travel a long distance to find a good instructor, even if the price is higher than what you currently pay, it might be a wise investment. The choice is yours, and you are only being ripped off if you are not getting top quality instruction for the higher prices. $500.00 for a test is at the high end, but not beyond the range of what is often charged.

If you are financially challenged, and can not afford the fee, then talk to the instructor. If the instructor is not worth the fee, then leave the school, but I would have hoped you would have realized that fact before your daughter reached 1st Dan.


Good Luck to you and your Daughter!
CM D.J. Eisenhart

 

[Cirdan]

500 $ for Dan testing? I guess it`s time to exchange the old black belt for a dollar green one.

 

[troubleenuf]

Talking greed, the Korean Master in our area charges $4800 for a forth dan test and it goes up a thousand for every test thereafter.... And he has a ton of people paying him these prices!

 

[fireman00]

the question of testing costs should have been either asked by you or offered by the instructor when you signed up. Did you have to pay for each belt level test on the way to black belt or were they free?

The first dojan I attended charged 500 bucks for Dan then an additional 250 bucks for every level over that, 750, 1000, 1250, etc. Some was to pay KKW for the cert, some went to cover the cost of the belt, some went to pay for the masters who came and monitored the test, some went to pay the Grand Master who ran the six affiliated schools and the rest went to the school I attended.

The current dojang I attend charges 40 bucks per belt level up to black belt at which point there is a flat fee of 150 dollars per black belt test. We do ITF and WTF so on alternating years we'll get a KKW cert then the next year we'll get an AAU certificate.

If the instructor is excellent and your child has learned and grown as a martial artist and as a person then the cost is neglible and you should not feel ripped off .... as was mentioned earlier you get what you pay for.

 

[crushing]

When I signed up for TKD, I didn't consider testing fees. Fortunately, the Gup testing fees have been affordable for me. I haven't inquired what they may be should I be invited to test for Dan down the road. I get the feeling that it would also be affordable and not so country club-esque, where the barriers to entry would be a poor Dan test results and not a poor credit score.

You don't always get what you pay for. That is the line of a salesman, and it can be true. Sometimes you find you get a lot more for a lot less, and other times you may find you paid a lot for what ended up a scam.

There is another thread about belt inflation. Could there be a relationship between the money made from testing students for Dan (especially progressive payment plans) and the number of students that some dojos are willing to invite for testing to Dan? If it's an additional $250 for the next Dan level, that may be difficult to pass up. Especially when insurance and utilities costs are skyrocketing. Yes, I understand for many schools it is a business and there is overhead to cover.

Whether you got ripped off or not is how you feel about it. It could very well be worth it to you as your child learns and grows as a student of the martial arts.

 

[Brad Dunne]

Kukkiwon certificates have limited value (Olympic validation only).........there are threads about this subject.

As for instructors charging high fee's, this is one of the reasons folks don't stay envolved with the school/instructor in question. My viewpoint is that the student is already paying for the instructors time and knowledge, via the monthly training fee. Why should they then be forced to pay even more, just to show that they have learned, what they have already paid for? You go to college (granted, the tuition is more but the comparrision will work), you don't have to pay extra to receive your diploma. You paid for knowledge and that's what you received and depending on the individual and how much effort they put forth, the level of knowledge varies. Both venues offer the same, knowledge that the student didn't have before entering. The big difference is that a college degree should open real world doors and a martial arts certificate really isn't worth the paper it's printed on, so why pay thru the nose for it? Lets use this for an example...........You pay the big bucks for your piece of paper. The school closes or the instructor moves or whatever, you somehow lose that piece of paper (fire, flood or whatever) and now you can't replace it without going back to another school and that instructor may or may not want you to start all over again to do things his/her way. Does that piece of paper now hold the same importance to you? For most folks, very doubtfull, so again, it's value is not worth the paper it was printed on. Now I realize that the bottom line to any of this is the human nature aspect of showing validation for one's efforts, but is it your true efforts or just the size of your bank account that really matters?

 

[Last Fearner]

With all due respects to Brad and his opinions on this subject, I feel I must disagree with some points.

Kukkiwon certificates have limited value (Olympic validation only)

This is not entirely true. While it is true that the Kukkiwon certificate has been approved and used as the verification of Black Belt credentials in Taekwondo in order to compete, coach, or referee in the Olympic event, the true purpose of the Kukkiwon Dan certificate goes much further than this. Since Taekwondo is a Korean Martial Art (the National Martial Art as well as offered as a sport) it is only right that there is a base academy that trains, certifies, and validates authentic training. This is not to say that those who train and become Black Belts without the KKW certificate are not legitimate, nor as knowledgeable and skilled at Taekwondo, it just provides a single source that all can have access to regardless of your organizational affiliation.

This "gold standard" of recognition has not yet reached its full potential for ensuring that those certified have met minimum standards, but I believe the concept must start somewhere, and the Kukkiwon was designed with that intent. We, as serious Taekwondoists, must work to make one main authority as the "gold standard" so that once you attain certification, no one can question it! It should be no different than passing the bar exam for lawyers and judges, or a medical license for doctors. Perhaps you can open a school and teach without it, but let the public beware of the risks from those who teach without proper education, credentials, or standards to safe-guard against fraud. It's not perfect yet, but let's make it better.

My viewpoint is that the student is already paying for the instructors time and knowledge, via the monthly training fee. Why should they then be forced to pay even more, just to show that they have learned, what they have already paid for?

You go to college (granted, the tuition is more but the comparrision will work), you don't have to pay extra to receive your diploma.

In my opinion, a Taekwondo education is as valuable (if not more so) as any college education. The difference here is that people readily recognize the real-world use of a college diploma, and it takes time to convince them of the value of learning the Martial Art. If all were fair in compensation, I put much more time, blood, sweat and tears into teaching a student than any college professor. I should be paid the full amount of my services up-front just like college tuition, but people don't realize that when they sign up. Thus, we charge a nominal fee for tuition, and make payments easy by spreading them out over monthly installments. Then, we recoup a lot of our investment by charging the balance of what is owed for the training by requiring a test fee. You are not actually paying for the testing process, nor the certificate received. You are making the final payment on what it took to get you to that point.

This is different than how a college or university works, but it is the method that has been adopted in the Martial Art business world. It is how we minimize the cost of training in the beginning so that we can provide a service to reluctant participants until they understand why they owe more than they could ever make in a lifetime to that individual who may have saved their life on many occasions - past, present, and future.

Some people have no respect for the sacrifice a full time instructor makes, and they say, "I won't be in next week or two, so I want a discount on my tuition." If an instructor operates that way, then fine. I do not! I charge for the entire course - - a semester, a school year (4 semesters) or an entire degree (3-4 years). You sign up to take the course - you pay for the course. You drop out - it's the same as college, it's your loss. I have to pay my bills monthly, twelve months of the year, regardless of who attends classes. If students want a university available to them, then they pay the college tuition required to run it. If you want a quality Martial Art instructor in your town, then pay for their services. Think of how many people interested in the Martial Art come on MT here and say, "I don't have any schools (or quality instructors) in my town. Why? Many times because there is not enough financial income to support a good school.

The big difference is that a college degree should open real world doors and a martial arts certificate really isn't worth the paper it's printed on, so why pay thru the nose for it?

I have had my Black Belt certification open "real-world" doors for me. Many opportunities, acknowledgment by prospective employers when put on a job application, and general respect for the accomplishment. More than the "piece of paper" the knowledge and skill of a disciplined, level-headed, trustworthy individual often opens more doors to promotions and other rewards. They don't say, "I promoted you because you have a Black Belt Certificate," but you get the rewards because of who and what you are, which partially came from the training you received to get that Black Belt certificate. If a certificate is not worth the paper it is written on, then it is the instruction received that is worthless. The "paper" has no value of its own (can't buy a candy bar with it), but it represents value, and is only as valuable as what it represents.

Lets use this for an example...........You pay the big bucks for your piece of paper. The school closes or the instructor moves or whatever, you somehow lose that piece of paper (fire, flood or whatever) and now you can't replace it without going back to another school and that instructor may or may not want you to start all over again to do things his/her way. Does that piece of paper now hold the same importance to you?

As I said, the piece of paper never held that much "value" in and of itself, but it can be "important." I have personal connection to the document which was handed to me by my instructor, but it is the knowledge that it represents. Lost, stolen or destroyed, it still carries the same weight because I don't lose what I have learned. I don't need to go to another school, or instructor to re-verify what I already earned. Like any other valuable document, students should make copies and keep them in a safe place in case of fire or theft.

This is one good reason for belonging to a national organization, or getting a Kukkiwon Certificate. If it is lost, the piece of paper that proves what you accomplished can be re-printed, and re-issued at a nominal fee. When you pay a test fee, you are not paying for the piece of paper any more than you are paying for the little paper receipt you get at the grocery store, or the certified warranty on a product. These are documents that prove you purchased something of value. The receipt is not the actual item of value, but it is good to keep in case you need to show someone evidence that you paid for and received the item in question.

Your Martial Art knowledge and skills are the valuable commodity (I would hope). Good quality instruction will change your life forever, help you in many ways, and might save your life. Is it more valuable than a college degree? I believe so! Is the certificate more valuable than the paper it is printed on? Only if you understand that any certificate is valuable because of what it represents.

This is my opinion and perspective on this subject. I respect those who hold a different point of view, even though I do disagree with those views.

CM D.J. Eisenhart

 

[wade]

Chief Master, would you mind if I printed your post out and used it to explain to people who question what I do and why I do it? I have got to say the was probably the best response I have ever seen or heard in my life. It is so much better and clearer than me screaming " BECAUSE I FREAKING SAID SO, SO NOW DO IT YOU FREAKING DWIT". Uh, not that I actually would say that, uh, you know?

 

[Brad Dunne]

This is not to say that those who train and become Black Belts without the KKW certificate are not legitimate, nor as knowledgeable and skilled at Taekwondo, it just provides a single source that all can have access to regardless of your organizational affiliation.

Not trying to be overly abrasive with my response, so I apologise in advance if it should come off as such........ If one should already belong to an organization that has just as much legitimate standing and members are just as knowledgeable and skilled, then the only thing of difference is the Olympic venue, then just what real value does a kukkiwon certificate actually hold? The vast majority of folks that train will never aspire to become world class olympic athletes, so if that's the only real seperation between organizations, it actually becomes a moot point. As for the "single source", well that will never happen, it really can't - the human nature syndrome always will be present.

This "gold standard" of recognition has not yet reached its full potential for ensuring that those certified have met minimum standards, but I believe the concept must start somewhere, and the Kukkiwon was designed with that intent............

This is in direct contradiction to the first statement of other's "just as legit, knowledgeable and skilled".

In my opinion, a Taekwondo education is as valuable (if not more so) as any college education...........

:erg:

Then, we recoup a lot of our investment by charging the balance of what is owed.............

What in the world do you as an instructor have invested in a student? Your being paid for your time and knowledge right from the beginning. The fee's you charge should have all your costs, pro rated, included (rent, utilities, insurance and payroll),

Some people have no respect for the sacrifice a full time instructor makes.

Again, what sacrifice's? You have opened up a business, just as many other's have done in many other endeavors.

people interested in the Martial Art come on MT here and say, "I don't have any schools (or quality instructors) in my town. Why? Many times because there is not enough financial income to support a good school.

The financial income is always predicated on several things. Supply and demand for one and costs. You can have the only school in a 500 mile radius, but if you charge too much, it's unlikely that you'll retain enough people to remain open. (Note: Cost is relative to the area where one resides).

If a certificate is not worth the paper it is written on, then it is the instruction received that is worthless...........

OK, so you have a certificate from a legit organization or your kwan and it's not accepted by another organization or kwan (happens all the time), so in essence your certificate is not worth the paper it's written on to these folks, and your assessment is that whatever instruction they received is also worthless............. Words just escape me! :idunno:

This is one good reason for belonging to a national organization, or getting a Kukkiwon Certificate. If it is lost, the piece of paper that proves what you accomplished can be re-printed, and re-issued at a nominal fee.

I agree...........

When you pay a test fee, you are not paying for the piece of paper any more than you are paying for the little paper receipt you get at the grocery store, or the certified warranty on a product.

I disagree............The receipt is your proof that you payed for the item, it's given to you when you pay the purchase price of the item. The certificate is also your proof that you paid for your training, but unlike the store receipt, you must pay an additional charge for this piece of paper. Folks seem to have forgotten that not that long ago and some schools/instructors may still do it today, that a student was awarded a certificate for the level of training accomplished, they didn't have to buy it. I have no real qualms of a school/instructor charging a small fee for materials used during the testing and for assisting visiting instructors overseeing the testing with transportation gas money and lunch, but charging high fee's, hundreds of dollars over and above whatever organizational fee that may be, to me is just ripping folks off.

 

[Last Fearner]

Chief Master, would you mind if I printed your post out and used it to explain to people who question what I do and why I do it? I have got to say the was probably the best response I have ever seen or heard in my life.

Thanks for the compliment Wade, and you may certainly print my post and use it if you think it will help. I'm glad it spoke to the issue for you in the same way that I see it.

It is so much better and clearer than me screaming " BECAUSE I FREAKING SAID SO, SO NOW DO IT YOU FREAKING DWIT". Uh, not that I actually would say that, uh, you know?

:lfao:

Not trying to be overly abrasive with my response, so I apologise in advance if it should come off as such........

Not at all, Brad. You seem to me to be polite and respectful when asserting your point of view and I appreciate that. I really enjoy these back and forth discussions we have here, and I believe others will benefit from hearing all sides. Some will agree with your point of view, and others with me!

If one should already belong to an organization that has just as much legitimate standing and members are just as knowledgeable and skilled, then the only thing of difference is the Olympic venue, then just what real value does a kukkiwon certificate actually hold?

I agree with your point that someone who is trained legitimately does not really need any other validation, but the Olympic venue is not the only other value of KKW. Get rid of Olympics completely, and I still feel there is a purpose and value to KKW. For one, having a certificate which comes from the Homeland or birth place of Taekwondo is meaningful to some Taekwondoists. If Korean certification ever reaches the pinnacle of proper credentials, as I believe it will, the KKW certificate will be viewed as a mutual link between all Taekwondo organizations.

No matter what your kwan or association, people will come to trust that the KKW requirements will never be compromised. Organizations may come and go. Founders and leaders die and their replacements are not always as credible as their predecessors. The Kukkiwon should stand the test of time, and never be vulnerable to shifts in politics, changes in leadership of national organizations, nor pressure from the whims of students and their parents. Saying that the Kukkiwon is not there yet, is being short-sighted. I believe it will be, and then it will prove to be of great value.

As for the "single source", well that will never happen, it really can't - the human nature syndrome always will be present.

You might be right on this point, Brad, but I certainly hope you will be wrong. I believe a "single source" of world wide credentials is necessary, but I also believe that all Kwanjang of every major organization should be allowed to be on a joint committee that has input on decisions of various aspects and applications of KKW certification in the future. This might never happen, but it would be beneficial to all concerned.

Last Fearner quote: "This "gold standard" of recognition has not yet reached its full potential for ensuring that those certified have met minimum standards, but I believe the concept must start somewhere, and the Kukkiwon was designed with that intent............ "

This is in direct contradiction to the first statement of other's "just as legit, knowledgeable and skilled".

Actually, it is not in contradiction. I know that there are currently organizations that offer legitimate training equal to or above KKW Dan requirements, and I do not want to insult any of them, nor attempt to diminish the value of their certifications. However, there are two key factors that I believe are beneficial to having a separate source of certification - not authority over the organizations, but verification that minimum standards are agreed upon by all the leaders of Taekwondo, and met by those who participate in issuing KKW certificates. First, the public, students, and instructors can get immediate verification as to the authentic, and proper training offered by a KKW backed organization. You know your school is great, I know my school is great, but the consumer does not know, and should have an independent source for checking this fact.

Secondly, organizations that run under arbitrary, independent leadership can fall victim to collapse, splits, internal disputes, and poor implementation of rules and regulations. If not today, then fifty or one hundred years from now. Corruption of individual instructors, schools and national organizations is much more likely to occur, and more difficult to correct if there is no one to double check their standards. With support from key people, the Kukkiwon should rise above all this and become the "gold standard" that all can rely on.

Last Fearner quote: "In my opinion, a Taekwondo education is as valuable (if not more so) as any college education........... "

:erg:

My statement here seems to baffle you. Perhaps you disagree? It most definitely depends on the instructor, and the full quantity and quality of training. I look at the change that occurs in people whom I have taught. I see people succeeding, even going on to get a college degree who would have never even attempted to do so before, or they would have quit part way through because they had no perseverance. I see students repairing relationships with family, friends, and spouses because of training, or gaining the strength and confidence to end an abusive relationship. I see students standing up to bullies, or having the courage to walk away from a fight.

I see people learning how to deal with adversity, strive toward goals, and how to achieve success in life. I have had students who have quit smoking, or improved their health and quality of life in many ways. I see people who have learned how to protect their life, and have even used the knowledge that I have taught them to fight back and save their life, and the lives of their loved ones. I know a college education has a value, but in my personal experience and professional opinion, no college education comes close to a genuine, life-altering, Martial Art education when it is taught correctly.

What in the world do you as an instructor have invested in a student?

:erg:​

No offense to any other instructors out there who do things differently, but to me, this question spot-lights the difference between a Martial Art Instructor, and a person who learned a Martial Art curriculum and teaches that curriculum for pay.

What do I, as an instructor, have invested in a student??? My whole life. My blood, sweat and tears. My heart and my soul. I don't just teach words from a textbook. I don't just teach physical activities or how to master a skill. I don't just teach people how to fight. I take a chunk of clay. I knead it until my fingers are raw to the bone to get the imperfections out that might cause it to self-destruct later on. I slam that hunk of clay down on my potter's well, and lubricate it with blood and sweat - theirs and mine. Then, I apply pressure to all sides as I rotate the wheel beneath it, and bring that individual to a "center." When I feel the clay is ready, I begin to spread out the base to support the future levels and walls that I will build. I then begin to mold that person into a unique piece of artwork that represents everything that I am, that I have learned, and that this student could possibly become as an individual. I dig deep into the core of my being every single day to bring out the core of who this person really is. I cut away all of the negative attributes, and bring this student up to reach his or her full potential. Then, if this student has been receptive to my teaching, it becomes time to "fire" the clay and make it solid for life. From that point on, the beginning of its purpose is realized. Whatever substance is placed in the vessel will be held, and will not leak out, or destroy the integrity of the vessel. The vessel is ready for the rest of the knowledge it will receive in a life-time.

Does this sound too melodramatic to you? If so, too bad! Because this is the reality of what I do as a "Martial Art Instructor." Anything less would be a sham, or a poor imitation, in my opinion.

Your being paid for your time and knowledge right from the beginning. The fee's you charge should have all your costs, pro rated, included (rent, utilities, insurance and payroll)

If this were true, then my base tuition would be about $2,000.00 per month, per student, with all promotional tests and certificates being free. Other people report to a 9 - 5 job and earn yearly salaries of 40 to 50 thousand dollars or more. Calculate what it costs to run a decent school, and then ensure that I get a salary comparable to the amount of time I spend preparing lessons, teaching students, discussing problems after hours, taking them to tournaments, seminars, and other activities where I receive no additional compensation. Write me a check for my time and talents and see if you can squeeze that into a budget of $25.00 per month tuition. :mst:

Last Fearner quote: "Some people have no respect for the sacrifice a full time instructor makes. "

Again, what sacrifice's? You have opened up a business, just as many other's have done in many other endeavors.

Enough said on this subject.

You can have the only school in a 500 mile radius, but if you charge too much, it's unlikely that you'll retain enough people to remain open. (Note: Cost is relative to the area where one resides).

Cost is also relative to the value people place on what you offer. If they see it as a health club, fight club, sport activity, or hobby, then they will not make the sacrifice themselves to pay for what it is really worth. There are exceptions in some poverty stricken areas, but many people in most towns can afford the higher cost of quality training, but don't realize the value unless they have been involved in a good school for a few years. I can either lower the cost to meet the perceived value by the consumer, or I can go to an area where people already value what I offer. If I choose to teach in an area where people would pay the higher price if they could, then I can discount the program for lower income families, but I can insist that they make some personal sacrifices and commitments to show that they understand the value above and beyond what they are paying.

OK, so you have a certificate from a legit organization or your kwan and it's not accepted by another organization or kwan (happens all the time), so in essence your certificate is not worth the paper it's written on to these folks, and your assessment is that whatever instruction they received is also worthless............. Words just escape me! :idunno:

Simply because another school or organization does not accept your credentials does not mean it is worthless. Most any reputable organization will accept the certificates of another reputable organization. I have had it happen many times. In any event, the purpose of the Kukkiwon certificate is supposed to put these issues to rest. The "my certificate is valuable, but yours is not" argument would be obsolete. Everyone would have their own organization's certificates, but anyone could get that certificate "backed" by a Kukkiwon Dan which would be accepted by any of the reputable organizations. Only those who choose to not accept a Kukkiwon Certificate would be left out in the cold by going it alone - - their choice!

It should be noted that there is a difference between "organizations" and the "Kukkiwon certification board." They are not comparable. Organizations are groups run by head masters who teach a curriculum from white belt on up, and offer certificates to acknowledge the accomplishments of each stage. While the "Kukkiwon" itself can be viewed as a national academy in Korea, issuing a "Kukkiwon Dan Certificate" to those outside of Korea is merely a confirmation that certain minimum standards have been met. Organizations can do that without any unified verification from Korea, but there is no proof to the unsuspecting public who does not know a Dojang from a Doughnut.

I disagree............The receipt is your proof that you payed for the item, it's given to you when you pay the purchase price of the item. The certificate is also your proof that you paid for your training, but unlike the store receipt, you must pay an additional charge for this piece of paper.

Pay me all the money in the world you want, you are still not getting a Dan Certificate for what you pay me. The certificate is not for sale, and is not what is being purchased. You are paying for the opportunity to test, but the cost is not just for that day, if it were then it would be the nominal fees that you suggest. You are crossing a threshold. You are receiving an honor to even be recommended to be promoted to Black Belt (or subsequent degrees).

If I bring a student to the threshold, and give my blessings to test, the student turns to me and says thank you, teacher, for your years of guidance, love, and personal sacrifice. What if I say to them, "You have paid me for class times, but you should know that you could not possibly pay enough to equal the value of everything that I have shared with you. I want you to climb one last hurdle," or "vacuum the dojang one more time," or "offer to me something of value that shows your understanding of what I have done to get you here"? If they reach in their pocket and hand me the prize they just got out of a cracker jack box, we might be meeting another day for their test. Not because of my greed, but because their gesture indicates they have not understood the value of what I have done for them.

I will grant you that other people think differently about this. However, I know that the cost of tuition never compares to the value of a proper Martial Art education. A Black Belt test fee is simply the final installment on what has transpired up to that point, and still it falls short. Sure, all of these funds could be charged up front, but not many would even begin their training if it were done this way. As it is, some complain - but oddly enough, not any of the Black Belt candidates that I have encountered. Sometimes you can get something of value for nothing, or real cheap, but not often.

Personally, I like to see students work hard to earn the money to pay for training. It helps them to realize the high value of what they have learned. Give it to them cheap, and they often take it for granted, and view it as "cheap." Pay a thousand dollars for a car, and you will take good care of it. Pay ten thousand dollars for a car, and you will take real good care of it. Pay one hundred thousand dollars for a car ...... and that car had better be worth it! Take a car valued at one hundred thousand dollars, and sell it to a teenager for 100 bucks, and see how soon he wrecks it.


CM D.J. Eisenhart

 

[Kacey]

Master Eisenhart, first I want to thank you for posting this - it has spoken eloquently to an opinion that I have never been able to clearly articulate for myself, and I great appreciate the time and effort you put into writing it. Your students are very lucky to have you as their sahbum.

I am not going to respond to the entire post, but I will respond to certain specific parts which spoke most strongly to me. Not ever having been a member of the Kukkiwon, or having held Kukkiwon certification (we were originally ITF), I have no real basis on which to address the specifics of Kukkiwon certification, although I have known students whose instructors have applied for that certification for them for the purpose of competition eligilibity.

No offense to any other instructors out there who do things differently, but to me, this question spot-lights the difference between a Martial Art Instructor, and a person who learned a Martial Art curriculum and teaches that curriculum for pay.

I agree - this is, I think, a point that many students - and instructors - fail to understand.

What do I, as an instructor, have invested in a student??? My whole life. My blood, sweat and tears. My heart and my soul. I don't just teach words from a textbook. I don't just teach physical activities or how to master a skill. I don't just teach people how to fight. I take a chunk of clay. I knead it until my fingers are raw to the bone to get the imperfections out that might cause it to self-destruct later on. I slam that hunk of clay down on my potter's well, and lubricate it with blood and sweat - theirs and mine. Then, I apply pressure to all sides as I rotate the wheel beneath it, and bring that individual to a "center." When I feel the clay is ready, I begin to spread out the base to support the future levels and walls that I will build. I then begin to mold that person into a unique piece of artwork that represents everything that I am, that I have learned, and that this student could possibly become as an individual. I dig deep into the core of my being every single day to bring out the core of who this person really is. I cut away all of the negative attributes, and bring this student up to reach his or her full potential. Then, if this student has been receptive to my teaching, it becomes time to "fire" the clay and make it solid for life. From that point on, the beginning of its purpose is realized. Whatever substance is placed in the vessel will be held, and will not leak out, or destroy the integrity of the vessel. The vessel is ready for the rest of the knowledge it will receive in a life-time.

Indeed. There is an oft-repeated quote that teachers give that speaks to this as well: [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]“A hundred years from now, it will not matter how much is in your bank account, the sort of house you lived in, or the kind of car you drove. But the world may be better because you were important in the life of a child.” If you replace the word "child" with "student" it will come close to how I feel about my students, and the responsibility I feel to be the best instructor I can be.

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Does this sound too melodramatic to you? If so, too bad! Because this is the reality of what I do as a "Martial Art Instructor." Anything less would be a sham, or a poor imitation, in my opinion.

No, it sounds perfectly appropriate to me. :asian:

Cost is also relative to the value people place on what you offer. If they see it as a health club, fight club, sport activity, or hobby, then they will not make the sacrifice themselves to pay for what it is really worth. There are exceptions in some poverty stricken areas, but many people in most towns can afford the higher cost of quality training, but don't realize the value unless they have been involved in a good school for a few years. I can either lower the cost to meet the perceived value by the consumer, or I can go to an area where people already value what I offer. If I choose to teach in an area where people would pay the higher price if they could, then I can discount the program for lower income families, but I can insist that they make some personal sacrifices and commitments to show that they understand the value above and beyond what they are paying.

I teach at a Y, which is very nice for this issue, as they provide scholarships for students who cannot afford the rates they set. The only fees I charge are for testing and gear, and since the testing fees go to the class, I can reduce the rates as much as I want - but I will not reduce them to nothing, because in the past, students who did not pay anything did not place any value on the training or testing. If a student (or parent of a student) can only afford $5 of the usual $25 test fee, that's fine - but if the same student who claims to be unable to afford the fee shows up with a new piece of electronics or $200 shoes or something similar, then I know where their values are, and I will not reduce the fee. Likewise, I have a pair of students, brothers, whose parents are divorced, whose father is unemployed due to mental illness, and whose mother is underpaid (she teaches at a Montesorri preschool) - and they can't afford uniforms, or pads, or anything else, but their family values are such that they wouldn't take things for free - so they came over and mowed my grass (which I didn't really need to have done, but they wanted to work for what they got - at 12 and 14 years old), and I paid for their uniforms. I know the value they place on being in class, because they are willing to work for it, and take nothing for granted - and I respect them immensely for it.

Pay me all the money in the world you want, you are still not getting a Dan Certificate for what you pay me. The certificate is not for sale, and is not what is being purchased. You are paying for the opportunity to test, but the cost is not just for that day, if it were then it would be the nominal fees that you suggest. You are crossing a threshold. You are receiving an honor to even be recommended to be promoted to Black Belt (or subsequent degrees).

See above. The students who impress me most are not the ones with the highest kicks, the greatest flexibility, the most competition awards - it is the students who work the hardest, who don't let the fact that it comes more easily to others than to themselves stop them from continuing to try - and to me, the effort that a student puts into their training is most important. I have students who started class able to kick above their heads, and students who couldn't kick above their knees - and the latter are the ones who try the hardest, learn the most, are the proudest and simultaneously the most humble (because they are proud of their achievements, which they worked so hard for, and still know how much more they can do if they work), and they are often the ones most likely to stay the course, instead of dropping out around green or blue belt when it suddenly isn't easy like it was at lower ranks.

If I bring a student to the threshold, and give my blessings to test, the student turns to me and says thank you, teacher, for your years of guidance, love, and personal sacrifice. What if I say to them, "You have paid me for class times, but you should know that you could not possibly pay enough to equal the value of everything that I have shared with you. I want you to climb one last hurdle," or "vacuum the dojang one more time," or "offer to me something of value that shows your understanding of what I have done to get you here"? If they reach in their pocket and hand me the prize they just got out of a cracker jack box, we might be meeting another day for their test. Not because of my greed, but because their gesture indicates they have not understood the value of what I have done for them.

When I started TKD, my sahbum told me that he taught TKD because his sahbum taught him, and the only way he could repay the time and effort that his sahbum put into his training was to train others - and I agree with that belief. My sahbum took the time and spent the effort necessary to teach me; only by expending similar time and effort with others can I truly repay that... and it was that attitude that caught my attention initially, and is a big part of why I am still with the same sahbum - my only sahbum - 20 years later.

I will grant you that other people think differently about this. However, I know that the cost of tuition never compares to the value of a proper Martial Art education. A Black Belt test fee is simply the final installment on what has transpired up to that point, and still it falls short. Sure, all of these funds could be charged up front, but not many would even begin their training if it were done this way. As it is, some complain - but oddly enough, not any of the Black Belt candidates that I have encountered. Sometimes you can get something of value for nothing, or real cheap, but not often.

Rather than comparing the earning of a black belt (or any other rank) to college, I would compare it to the medieval apprentice/journeyman/master system of training. The master in such a system was responsible for the training of the apprentices and journeymen; their successes reflected well upon his training, and their errors reflected poorly. The master was responsible for his students' training, skills, certification, and provided their for their daily living expenses. In return, the apprentices and journeymen were responsible for their master's comfort, took care of the chores about the house and/or business place, did the work that did not require the master's skills, dealt with inquiries, and generally smoothed the way for their master so that he could concentrate upon the finer parts of the skill he taught, and have the time to teach without worrying about how to complete the next job so he could eat and have shelter.

As a color belt, I was an apprentice, learning the art at the lowest, most basic level, just as an apprentice would learn the basics of blacksmithing, or printing, or farming. As a black belt, I am a journeyman, with enough training and understanding to practice the art and begin to instruct others, sometimes independently and sometimes with the assistance and feedback of my sahbum - who, at 6th Dan, and with 27 years of experience, still trains regularly with his own sahbum. For the very few, who work long and hard and tirelessly, there is the rank of master at the end of a long and difficult road. There are differences, true, but for myself, I find this to be a more appropriate comparison than college degrees, although I understand the comparison.

 

[Brad Dunne]

Mr. Eisenhart, I bow with respect to your viewpoints and the rebuttal you present. On some of the items in debate, we will agree to disagree. There are even some points I agree on in principle (ie: central organization and standards requirements thereof). In fact, I almost envy your positioning on how you embrace the concept of being invested in your student(s). I thought at one time I was of like mindset, but time and human nature being what it is has taken it's toll. Again, thank you for sharing your viewpoints and feelings. :asian:

 

[Last Fearner]

Thank you Brad, and thank you Kacey for your kind words and input. I think we are all growing in our understanding the more we share like this. I accept that we disagree on some things, Brad, and I know others hold your viewpoints as well. I am open to the possibility that I might be wrong on some of the opinions I hold, but I would not hold them if I had not given them due consideration. Yet, I do keep my mind open to change if someone shares with me a different perspective that I have not fully considered. I am very optimistic about the future of Taekwondo, and I would much rather see Taekwondists and organizations come together rather than split further apart. Not merge as one organization, but joined in one cause to promote Taekwondo with positive methods and motives.

I thought at one time I was of like mindset, but time and human nature being what it is has taken it's toll. Again, thank you for sharing your viewpoints and feelings. :asian:

There have been times that negative people, and circumstances have seemed to chipped away at my confidence, and undermine my positive outlook, but then I realize that my soul is my strength, and they can not touch that. Taekwondo reminds me that Indomitable Spirit will help me prevail against all odds. It is like writing all your problems and every negative thing that others say and you think on a white marker board. Then taking an eraser in your hand and waving it back and forth until it all disappears. I have had seemingly overwhelming negativity at times in my life. Sometimes I struggle to make it through. Other times, a wave of the hand (figuratively) wipes everything away when I am reminded the lack of power they have over me.

I am convinced that each of you are excellent students of the Martial Art, and will likely become outstanding Masters, and positive roll models for thousands of students. However, we must stick together, work together, and be positive if we are going to accomplish anything that will last beyond our days in this world.

[Edit note: In my pottery analogy from my previous post, I meant to say "potter's wheel," not "potter's well."]

My respects to each of you! :asian:
CM D.J. Eisenhart
________________________
Last Fearner

 

[terryl965]

Thank you Brad, and thank you Kacey for your kind words and input. I think we are all growing in our understanding the more we share like this. I accept that we disagree on some things, Brad, and I know others hold your viewpoints as well. I am open to the possibility that I might be wrong on some of the opinions I hold, but I would not hold them if I had not given them due consideration. Yet, I do keep my mind open to change if someone shares with me a different perspective that I have not fully considered. I am very optimistic about the future of Taekwondo, and I would much rather see Taekwondists and organizations come together rather than split further apart. Not merge as one organization, but joined in one cause to promote Taekwondo with positive methods and motives.



There have been times that negative people, and circumstances have seemed to chipped away at my confidence, and undermine my positive outlook, but then I realize that my soul is my strength, and they can not touch that. Taekwondo reminds me that Indomitable Spirit will help me prevail against all odds. It is like writing all your problems and every negative thing that others say and you think on a white marker board. Then taking an eraser in your hand and waving it back and forth until it all disappears. I have had seemingly overwhelming negativity at times in my life. Sometimes I struggle to make it through. Other times, a wave of the hand (figuratively) wipes everything away when I am reminded the lack of power they have over me.

I am convinced that each of you are excellent students of the Martial Art, and will likely become outstanding Masters, and positive roll models for thousands of students. However, we must stick together, work together, and be positive if we are going to accomplish anything that will last beyond our days in this world.

[Edit note: In my pottery analogy from my previous post, I meant to say "potter's wheel," not "potter's well."]

My respects to each of you! :asian:
CM D.J. Eisenhart
________________________
Last Fearner

CM Eisenhart I would love to have been training with you your view point are like mine but said alot better than I could ever say them one day we have to meet and have a long lunch and talk about old days and new ones on the horizen.

 

[Last Fearner]

one day we have to meet and have a long lunch and talk about old days and new ones on the horizen.

I'd be glad to, Master Stoker! Later this year, I hope to travel a little more with my family, so we'll see what happens! If you ever come to this area, you know who to call!

CM D.J. Eisenhart
____________________
Last Fearner

 

[terryl965]

I'd be glad to, Master Stoker! Later this year, I hope to travel a little more with my family, so we'll see what happens! If you ever come to this area, you know who to call!

CM D.J. Eisenhart
____________________
Last Fearner

Gostbuster Naw I know you sir