FAST Gun disarm!

[jasonbrinn]

I have never seen this before. Hope this isn't a repost;

 

[chinto]

well if he is going to pull the trigger and you are sure, what do you have to loose.... but any one who knows what they are doing with a pistol will not be at contact range either!

 

[seasoned]

I would assume if he had a finger spasm that gun could go off, so at that range do something. The farther out they are, chances are slim to none.

Years ago we were taught crescent kick.

 

[szorn]

Obviously having a gun to the head is a bad situation. The most obvious solution is to use awareness and hopefully avoid finding yourself in the situation in the first place. However, as all things in life regardless of how well prepared we are and how aware we are there is still the possibility of being caught in such a situation. That said, the guy in the video has obviously spent many hours practicing that one technique to develop such speed. Would such speed and accuracy be applicable by average men and women who need to be able to survive such an ordeal? No likely! That being the case, I stress that the student focus on control of the weapon-bearing limb while viciously counter-attacking, rather than trying to "dis-arm" or playing tug-o-war with a gun. The thing to keep in mind is that trying to pull a gun from the grip of the attacker does nothing to slow or stop the attack. Maybe is has another gun or a knife that he can immediately access with his other free hand while you are trying to pull the gun from his grip. Maybe he just pulls the gun back and pulls the trigger ( a common retention strategy). Maybe the gun he was holding on you was fake and even if you are lucky enough to rip it from his grip, he knows it isn't a threat to him, so he draws his knife and continues his attack.

Moral of the story, obviously we need to make sure we don't get shot but the focus should be on neutralizing the attacker not trying to execute a dis-arm on a fully conscious person that only has to squeeze his finger in order to end our life.

Steve

 

[Cyriacus]

Personally, I dont like focusing on disarming. It can be too finicky. Getting the weapon undirected from your head is a more attainable goal.

 

[lklawson]

To be fair, I'm not really impressed.

He spends some time discussing the obvious fact that putting a weapon in the opponent's hand increases his range by the length of the weapon. Duh.

Then he shows a pretty standard lever-disarm which is identical to knife and stick disarms ranging from FMA and going all the way back to Medieval fighting styles of Europe. Of course it has to be fast, but even then, in the words of George Silver, "the hand is quicker than the eye" - that means that action is always faster than reaction.

Finally, anyone who stands in front of you and sticks a gun in contact with your body is 100% untrained on firearms and is probably also an idiot. From actual footage I've seen and witnesses I've spoken to or read their accounts, no criminal actually does this. Maybe 1 out of 100 or less. Why train for the 1%?

I'm sorry to be such a downer and poo-poo this clip but, honestly, it's the disarming version of breaking a stack of boards with spacers - the equivalent of a parlor trick.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[lklawson]

I would assume if he had a finger spasm that gun could go off, so at that range do something.

I might "go off" because the direction the disarm moves the wrist also moves the trigger finger, often against the trigger itself, and it also stresses and extends the tendons and muscles which control the trigger finger's "gripping." In effect, it artificially creates a "pull" by the trigger finger. So, yes, it could cause the trigger to be pulled, leading to a discharge. By that point the direction of the barrel is off-line with the defender's head. Might be on-line with someone else, however.

This disarm works, it's just not particularly impressive.

Years ago we were taught crescent kick.

Yeah, I remember being taught a crescent kick as a knife defense too.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[lklawson]

but any one who knows what they are doing with a pistol will not be at contact range either!

+1000.

The Uke here was either being really nice or was ignorant of firearms. I noticed how he cocked the hammer back. It's a double-action handgun. I couldn't tell if it was the beretta or the taurus clone, but both are known to have a pretty smooth trigger even in double-action.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[jasonbrinn]

Why train for the 1%?

That takes care of about 99% of Martial Arts now doesn't it.

 

[lklawson]

Personally, I dont like focusing on disarming. It can be too finicky. Getting the weapon undirected from your head is a more attainable goal.

Nah. This one works well provided that the weapon and the weapon bearing wrist is within grasping distance of Tore. Uke completely loses all initiative. Silver calls this "Time of the Hand" and notes it as being the most dangerous range that two people fighting with weapons can be in specifically because the defender's reaction time (Uke in this example) is insufficient to prevent or defend against the attacker's action (Tore in this example).

Every weapon art in the world which deals with comparatively short length weapons has this disarm, particularly knife based arts. I know of one variation of it for the Medieval rondel knife held in a hammer-fist grip.

It works. It's easy. But you've got to be close.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[lklawson]

That takes care of about 99% of Martial Arts now doesn't it.

What?

 

[jasonbrinn]

From actual footage I've seen and witnesses I've spoken to or read their accounts, no criminal actually does this. Maybe 1 out of 100 or less. Why train for the 1%?

I'm sorry to be such a downer and poo-poo this clip but, honestly, it's the disarming version of breaking a stack of boards with spacers - the equivalent of a parlor trick.

You said that that particular move and disarm is more like a parlor trick because it almost never happens and why train for the 1% as you put it. I submit to you sir that most, probably even 99%, of what is trained in the Martial Arts almost never happens either.

If we were to go by what actually happens and then base our training for those things then wouldn't 99% of the Martial Arts training done today be different?

Jason Brinn

 

[Cyriacus]

Nah. This one works well provided that the weapon and the weapon bearing wrist is within grasping distance of Tore. Uke completely loses all initiative. Silver calls this "Time of the Hand" and notes it as being the most dangerous range that two people fighting with weapons can be in specifically because the defender's reaction time (Uke in this example) is insufficient to prevent or defend against the attacker's action (Tore in this example).

Every weapon art in the world which deals with comparatively short length weapons has this disarm, particularly knife based arts. I know of one variation of it for the Medieval rondel knife held in a hammer-fist grip.

It works. It's easy. But you've got to be close.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

I stand corrected I dont claim to know much about the matter, so i can only state my opinion. I also like learning more about things. Cheers! Or whatever salutation youd prefer.

You said that that particular move and disarm is more like a parlor trick because it almost never happens and why train for the 1% as you put it. I submit to you sir that most, probably even 99%, of what is trained in the Martial Arts almost never happens either.

If we were to go by what actually happens and then base our training for those things then wouldn't 99% of the Martial Arts training done today be different?

Jason Brinn

You must have very different experiences and observations to what i have had.
I think the point was that youre better off spending time training for more likely scenarios. If this is a likely scenario for you, then do the opposite, and train it more.

 

[lklawson]

You said that that particular move and disarm is more like a parlor trick because it almost never happens and why train for the 1% as you put it. I submit to you sir that most, probably even 99%, of what is trained in the Martial Arts almost never happens either.

If we were to go by what actually happens and then base our training for those things then wouldn't 99% of the Martial Arts training done today be different?

Jason Brinn

If you're just training for fun, then OK, whatever. Sure.

But if you want to train for "what actually happens" when you are unarmed and are threatened with a handgun, then this disarm is pretty low down on the list of techniques which will be useful to you. Far more useful are movements like Passatta Sotto and Inquartata.

I forget the movie, I wanna say Serpico, but one quote sticks in my head because it was (surprisingly so for a movie) actually so very very right. To paraphrase, "If you are facing an untrained right handed shooter, duck low and to your left. The shot will go over your right shoulder. If you are facing a trained left handed shooter, we will give you an official funeral." [edit]The point being that evasion and movement are paramount[/edit]

Most of the time, when you are threatened with a handgun, it will be from a range outside of easy grabbing distance. In those cases, evasion and closing skills are what are paramount, not disarming.

While I agree that, for most of us, being threatened with a handgun at all is a low percentage occurrence. What? 1 out of 1,000? 1 out of 10,000? 1 out of 100,000? In the unusual event that this happens, the chances are of the gun being placed in contact with you is even less. Now you've got a 1 out of 100 or less event occurring within the bounds of a 1 out of 100,000 event.

Good heavens, at that point training for it is a complete waste of time unless you're sole goal is to have fun or impress internet peeps. As a gun disarm, it has exactly the same martial application as a 3 strike Tornado Kick. Do it in a demo and maybe a Belt Bunny will get hot.

Now, if you want to move it back to knife disarms, there's a bit more applicability, but even then it's pretty far down the list.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[jasonbrinn]

I agree with you Kirk.

However, your point is interesting to me in that you see the lack of worth for training such a technique for self defense since it would seem to be such a low chance occurrence. Well, wouldn't your logic apply to training anything for self defense? And if so then wouldn't that same logic rule out most of what is currently trained in the Martial Arts?

 

[lklawson]

I stand corrected I dont claim to know much about the matter, so i can only state my opinion. I also like learning more about things. Cheers! Or whatever salutation youd prefer.

It doesn't matter that much. I agree that a lot of us, as martial artists, train for situations that are simply never going to happen. How often is someone going to face a Katana with a Bo? I am in the same boat myself. If I ever get into a Broadsword/Heavy-Saber duel it will mean the Civilization has crashed, technology has passed, and Magic has risen in its place.

Training for fun is, well, FUN.

I just have an issue when certain kinds of training are presented as being way more wiz than the actually are in reality. In particular I get tweaked by gun defenses. From time to time I see gun defenses taught by people who I have to wonder, "has he ever actually SHOT a gun?"

Again, this disarm works, but my particular gripe with it is that the parameters required to make it work are way out on the razor edge of unlikelihood for an already unlikely event.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[lklawson]

I agree with you Kirk.

However, your point is interesting to me in that you see the lack of worth for training such a technique for self defense since it would seem to be such a low chance occurrence. Well, wouldn't your logic apply to training anything for self defense?

No. Not if your goal is to train for Self Defense. If that is the goal in training, then it behooves the person training to first identify what the most likely self defense scenarios are and train for those. This particular event is way, way down the list.

In the last 3 months or so, there have been, what?, 4 nationally attention getting Active Shooter events? In exactly NONE of said Active Shooter events would the above training have been even marginally useful. What would have been useful would be 1) leave the area 2) secure your location from the Active Shooter 3) if you cannot leave the area or secure your location, then seek Cover first or Concealment second. 3) provided all previous options are exhausted, then engage the shooter.

In the event that you tick off on down to #3, the skills that will matter most are footwork and evasion most similar to skills from straight line attack arts like fencing with smallswords or some knives, etc. Particularly Inquartata or Passata Sotto but variations of the Boxer's "Duck and Weave" or FMA's "Triangle Stepping" are all applicable.

And if so then wouldn't that same logic rule out most of what is currently trained in the Martial Arts?

Yes. Look, I bear no illusions that I am ever going to bare steel and have a Heavy Saber duel. I study the Military Saber because it's fun and because it makes me better with my Bowie Knife, which is also very unlikely to ever require "real life" use (though I admit that it is somewhat more likely than a Military Saber).

The difference is in what the Training Goals are. If you're just training to have fun or if your goal is to as closely as possible recreate or maintain an anachronistic martial art then, by all means, unlimber that Jo staff and practice the Jo vs Sai kata.

But if your goal is RBSD then this particular gun disarm, indeed most gun disarms, are fodder for flashy demos to get students into your studio or to take your 2 day Seminar.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[Aiki Lee]

I agree that closing skills and evasion are more important and that the techniques need to be trained from a proper distance, but being that close is a good way for a novice to practice the technique. As they increase in skill the uke should move back further until they reach the point where it is wiser to flee than to confront. Also, when it comes to training SD with firearms, at some point uke needs to be moving around and yelling and screaming at tore. The only reason someone would be this close to you is if they wanted something other than to just kill you. If they just wanted to kill you, they'd shoot you from a distance where no disarm will help you.

 

[Buka]

As far as 46 second disarms go, especially ones with accompanying comedic dialogue.....it still didn't cut it. He only displayed half the principle involved.

 

[Christian Soldier]

Isn't this just a standard front disarm (grab barrel in RH and wrist in LH and twist barrel inwards and pull out) done faster at head height?

Anyway, I'm pretty sure it is, and if that is the case, it seems a viable defence option if you first 'moved the target'. It's a bit risky otherwise.

Chances are, most thugs in the street are more familiar with using the firearm for intimidation and don't really know how to use it. However, if you are going to take the time to train in gun disarms for self defence, it's a good idea to train in both the 'moron' gun attacks and the expierienced (attacker holding the gun with both hands at a short distance) gun attacks because you don't know what you are going to face on ths street.