External vs internal martial arts

[Xue Sheng]

I think you are barking up the wrong tree. Why on earth would i want to exhibit my ego on an internet forum to total strangers? You have 20 years in taijiquan and i only have 6 years, and if we were to meet up to cross hands i would most probably lose. I seriously don't know why you think i want people to take what i say as the absolute truth.

At the same time i also don't think you know everything about taijiquan to allow you to become the 'guardian of true taijiquan' and judge what other people think and believe about their taijiquan and make sure everyone conforms to what you think is the 'true taijiquan'. Talking about a big ego, sheesh.

The true taijiquan masters are out there, teaching many students across many countries, not debating on an internet forum.

Zeny

Never said I was the guardian of "True Taiji", I did say that when someone is posting things based on myth, mysticism and magic I would point it out. You see, there are things in taijiquan that can appear to be "Magical" and there are those that will capitalize on that and then there are those that will believe it. and then they tell 2 people and they tell 2 people and before you know it you got a bunch of people standing around doing no touch knockouts...or at least that is what they beleive.

However the fact is, it is not magical, it is training and dedication to that training. I am also of the belief, that Taiji as a martial art is dead. And I believe that for the same reasons Chen Xiaowang stated a few years back; there are way to many that know taiji as a moving meditation, and I am also ok with that by the way, if that is what they want good, I am happy for them. But there are large numbers of them, and compared to those who know the martial arts of it, if you divide those who know the MA by those who do not the number is so close to zero that it might as well be zero. There was also a time I just threw my hands up and said o be it, and like my sifu, pretty much retired from teaching the MA of it. But recently I decided that, yes it is dying as an MA, but it will have to die with me because I am not going to quit on it.

I also never claimed to know everything about taijiquan, I don't think anyone can

To see why I think you are here to teach and proselytize and be seen as the "Grand Master" All you need to is go back, drop the ego, and reread the majority of the posts you have made since coming to MT. Just look at the the very first post of this thread and "your" wording "serious student of any martial art must clearly differentiate between external and internal martial arts." that is saying that if you do not do this, per Zeny, you are not serious. So the majority of all JMA students are not serious, there is not a single serious BJJ or MMA student, no one who trains Sanda/Sanshou (no matter the version) could possibly be serious. The majority of Xingyiquan people (who know about Internal and external) are not serious. as are multiple martial artists from multiple cultures globally. Is that what Zeny is saying, and if so, you want me to believe that it does not come from Ego, or mysticism. You also made it sound like the 13 postures as well as kicking, punching, Shuaijiao and qinna could not be practiced internally, so now you have pretty much excluded any serious martial artist that trains Taijiquan from Zeny's exclusive taijiquan club, not to mention virtually every other CMA practitioner. Is that what you are trying to say. Do you now understand the reason for my very first post, and my questions....or am I still trying to be the "guardian of true Taiji?

And sorry, but the Internal vs external containers are just plane silly IMHO. They create silos and prejudice and excuses and they inhibit training things properly. Also, if you do the research, there are multiple definitions of the terminology in Chinese history that range from that which comes from inside China (based in Taoism) vs that which comes from outside China (based in Buddhism) all the way to developing "Qi" internally Vs developing Qi externally. Add to that; it did not matter before the late 1600, and from what I can tell it did not matter to the Chen family until sometime in the 20th century.

OK, call me names, tell me I'm and egotist, tell me I am barking up the wrong tree, or accuse me of trying to be the guardian of true taiji....does not matter.... I have more important things to do...like go get some taiji done before I have to leave my house.

 

[Zeny]

Debating about science i can understand, but art? We don't even do the same taijiquan forms.

 

[Zeny]

Zeny

Never said I was the guardian of "True Taiji", I did say that when someone is posting things based on myth, mysticism and magic I would point it out. You see, there are things in taijiquan that can appear to be "Magical" and there are those that will capitalize on that and then there are those that will believe it. and then they tell 2 people and they tell 2 people and before you know it you got a bunch of people standing around doing no touch knockouts...or at least that is what they beleive.

However the fact is, it is not magical, it is training and dedication to that training. I am also of the belief, that Taiji as a martial art is dead. And I believe that for the same reasons Chen Xiaowang stated a few years back; there are way to many that know taiji as a moving meditation, and I am also ok with that by the way, if that is what they want good, I am happy for them. But there are large numbers of them, and compared to those who know the martial arts of it, if you divide those who know the MA by those who do not the number is so close to zero that it might as well be zero. There was also a time I just threw my hands up and said o be it, and like my sifu, pretty much retired from teaching the MA of it. But recently I decided that, yes it is dying as an MA, but it will have to die with me because I am not going to quit on it.

I also never claimed to know everything about taijiquan, I don't think anyone can

To see why I think you are here to teach and proselytize and be seen as the "Grand Master" All you need to is go back, drop the ego, and reread the majority of the posts you have made since coming to MT. Just look at the the very first post of this thread and "your" wording "serious student of any martial art must clearly differentiate between external and internal martial arts." that is saying that if you do not do this, per Zeny, you are not serious. So the majority of all JMA students are not serious, there is not a single serious BJJ or MMA student, no one who trains Sanda/Sanshou (no matter the version) could possibly be serious. The majority of Xingyiquan people (who know about Internal and external) are not serious. as are multiple martial artists from multiple cultures globally. Is that what Zeny is saying, and if so, you want me to believe that it does not come from Ego, or mysticism. You also made it sound like the 13 postures as well as kicking, punching, Shuaijiao and qinna could not be practiced internally, so now you have pretty much excluded any serious martial artist that trains Taijiquan from Zeny's exclusive taijiquan club, not to mention virtually every other CMA practitioner. Is that what you are trying to say. Do you now understand the reason for my very first post, and my questions....or am I still trying to be the "guardian of true Taiji?

And sorry, but the Internal vs external containers are just plane silly IMHO. They create silos and prejudice and excuses and they inhibit training things properly. Also, if you do the research, there are multiple definitions of the terminology in Chinese history that range from that which comes from inside China (based in Taoism) vs that which comes from outside China (based in Buddhism) all the way to developing "Qi" internally Vs developing Qi externally. Add to that; it did not matter before the late 1600, and from what I can tell it did not matter to the Chen family until sometime in the 20th century.

OK, call me names, tell me I'm and egotist, tell me I am barking up the wrong tree, or accuse me of trying to be the guardian of true taiji....does not matter.... I have more important things to do...like go get some taiji done before I have to leave my house.

Some people find my OP acceptable (tez), some people enjoyed it (bill), some people understood it (dave), some people don't (oftheherd), and some people find it offensive (xue), and you happen to be in the latter category. I don't mind that because that's what happens in an internet forum, just don't be an *** about it or pretend you are speaking for everyone or people need protection from the lies of Zeny.

i'm sure many people on this forum are intelligent enough to decide for themselves what is real and what is delusion. If you don't like my post, do yourself a favour and avoid my threads.

 

[DaveB]

There is really no point to debate martial arts. It can only be tested by actual fighting, and in actual fighting, people get hurt. I really don't see why you think it is beneficial to debate martial arts to find out what is the 'absolute truth', if there really is one. What works for one person may not work for another. No one size fits all.

If you feel that way why be on a discussion forum? Why post this thread?

Fighting tests far less than one might think, because it is entirely reliant on the relative skills of the individuals fighting. Losing doesn't make me wrong about how best to apply technique X, it just means I wasn't good enough to do it against my opponent this time.

The kind of testing that could prove something to any degree takes masses of resources: test subjects, control groups, isolated and consistent training etc.
However, if we discuss the theories in question as experienced, mature and honest martial artists we can at least raise enough questions and concerns to allow us to work out our individual preference. At best a consensus can be reached and all involved can learn something. At best a single answer is found for a single question.

That is why we debate.

Much bigger and more complex concepts than martial arts are debated all the time. That we all have a unique experience means only that.there is more reason/more to be gained if we share and compare, not less.

Honestly your hiding from debate combines with your protestations against Xue Sheng's questions to suggest a simple fear of being shown to be wrong.
A fear that indicates strong faith and attachment to your ideas, which usually implies that a degree of self worth is tied up in how special your unique ma club is.

I dislike being disappointed (as I was when hope of a good discussion died with your refusal to discuss) so please, prove me wrong.

 

[Zeny]

If you feel that way why be on a discussion forum? Why post this thread?

Fighting tests far less than one might think, because it is entirely reliant on the relative skills of the individuals fighting. Losing doesn't make me wrong about how best to apply technique X, it just means I wasn't good enough to do it against my opponent this time.

The kind of testing that could prove something to any degree takes masses of resources: test subjects, control groups, isolated and consistent training etc.
However, if we discuss the theories in question as experienced, mature and honest martial artists we can at least raise enough questions and concerns to allow us to work out our individual preference. At best a consensus can be reached and all involved can learn something. At best a single answer is found for a single question.

That is why we debate.

Much bigger and more complex concepts than martial arts are debated all the time. That we all have a unique experience means only that.there is more reason/more to be gained if we share and compare, not less.

Honestly your hiding from debate combines with your protestations against Xue Sheng's questions to suggest a simple fear of being shown to be wrong.
A fear that indicates strong faith and attachment to your ideas, which usually implies that a degree of self worth is tied up in how special your unique ma club is.

I dislike being disappointed (as I was when hope of a good discussion died with your refusal to discuss) so please, prove me wrong.

You misunderstood me.

I did not refuse to discuss. You could see my discussion with bill and kung fu wang. But i am avoiding a debate with certain personalities of this forum. I felt i could not be bothered.

You haven't mentioned what you wish to discuss.

 

[Tez3]

Debating about science i can understand, but art? We don't even do the same taijiquan forms.

What makes you think martials arts aren't science, boxing after all is called the 'sweet science', there are a good many scientific principles going on in martial arts.
If you only wish to discuss things with those you think accept or approve your ideas you won't move forward, discussing things with people who have different opinions makes you think about yours. They may well be wrong but by discussing things with them, by actually being bothered to think, clarifies your thoughts.

 

[Zeny]

What makes you think martials arts aren't science, boxing after all is called the 'sweet science', there are a good many scientific principles going on in martial arts.
If you only wish to discuss things with those you think accept or approve your ideas you won't move forward, discussing things with people who have different opinions makes you think about yours. They may well be wrong but by discussing things with them, by actually being bothered to think, clarifies your thoughts.

What makes you think that i only wish to discuss ideas with people of similar views? Kung fu wang has a completely different approach to martial arts than me and i'm happy discussing things with him.

I'm just not bothered discussing ideas with people who think i'm spreading lies or who hold the view that i wish to stroke my ego. It's simply not worth my time.

Up until now you have made many posts on this thread but not a single post is about what is your own experience of external and internal arts. I honestly think that you're not really here for a bona fide discussion.

 

[Danny T]

If one were to take a method and practice it diligently with an attention to what is happening solely with the body is one now practicing an internal art or is it a hybrid?

If one were to take an art like Xingyi and practice external strengthening exercises within the training is one now practicing an internal art or is it a hybrid?

 

[Xue Sheng]

Some people find my OP acceptable (tez), some people enjoyed it (bill), some people understood it (dave), some people don't (oftheherd), and some people find it offensive (xue), and you happen to be in the latter category. I don't mind that because that's what happens in an internet forum, just don't be an *** about it or pretend you are speaking for everyone or people need protection from the lies of Zeny.

i'm sure many people on this forum are intelligent enough to decide for themselves what is real and what is delusion. If you don't like my post, do yourself a favour and avoid my threads.

Offended... no...you rate yourself to high, which I have known for sometime now that you do....and the fact you feel that I feel the need to protect anyone from you is pure arrogance.....but based on this response of yours....you have no idea what I said do you.... you did not really read any of it..... you do not wish to be questioned or debated, you only want those that agree with you to respond..... ok...from now on...in the true sense of the word on mainland China...henceforth you will be "Grandmaster Zeny"..... there...feel better....

And this all could have been avoided if you only honestly answered 2 simple questions..... later Grandmaster Zeny... but be warned...post silliness and I will likely respond....

 

[Zeny]

Offended... no...you rate yourself to high, which I have known for sometime now that you do....and the fact you feel that I feel the need to protect anyone from you is pure arrogance.....but based on this response of yours....you have no idea what I said do you.... you did not really read any of it..... you do not wish to be questioned or debated, you only want those that agree with you to respond..... ok...from now on...in the true sense of the word on mainland China...henceforth you will be "Grandmaster Zeny"..... there...feel better....

And this all could have been avoided if you only honestly answered 2 simple questions..... later Grandmaster Zeny... but be warned...post silliness and I will likely respond....

Oh no, you're back. I really can't shake you off, can I. Extremely high level sticking jin.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Not to worry, Grandmaster Zeny, just stop quoting my posts and I stop responding

 

[Zeny]

If one were to take a method and practice it diligently with an attention to what is happening solely with the body is one now practicing an internal art or is it a hybrid?

If one were to take an art like Xingyi and practice external strengthening exercises within the training is one now practicing an internal art or is it a hybrid?

If you're practising a method, say a forward pole thrust, while paying attention to the insides of your body, i would say that it is an external art. Like i said, external art also emphasises relaxation, rooting, etc.

I don't know xingyi so i cannot comment. What kind of external strengthening exercises? You need to be more specific.

 

[EddieCyrax]

This thread seems very "internal"......

 

[Tez3]

What makes you think that i only wish to discuss ideas with people of similar views? Kung fu wang has a completely different approach to martial arts than me and i'm happy discussing things with him.

I'm just not bothered discussing ideas with people who think i'm spreading lies or who hold the view that i wish to stroke my ego. It's simply not worth my time.

Up until now you have made many posts on this thread but not a single post is about what is your own experience of external and internal arts. I honestly think that you're not really here for a bona fide discussion.

I think you don't actually understand what people are talking about, I put that down to English not being your first language, you are missing so many of the nuances of what people are saying and not understanding the rudeness of your own posts.
You don't want to discuss internal and external I'm afraid.

 

[Danny T]

If you're practising a method, say a forward pole thrust, while paying attention to the insides of your body, i would say that it is an external art. Like i said, external art also emphasises relaxation, rooting, etc.

Why would that be an external art?
In several 'internal arts there are weapons... poles, axes, swords utilized. What would be the difference?

I don't know xingyi so i cannot comment. What kind of external strengthening exercises? You need to be more specific.

Ok now this is where thing got dicey when you were asked to expound on some information and to be a bit more specific and your response was, "Perhaps do a google search". (this was back in post # 11)

To be more specific; using some body weight exercises as well as additional weighted motions like what the average person on an animal or agriculture farm would be doing on a day to day basis. Maybe some one doing package deliveries of 20 to 60 lbs, or maybe a different person doing some specific 20-60 or more lbs of physical fitness exercises. One does it on a day to day basis as part of their living, another does it on a day to day basis specifically to live healthier.

 

[Flying Crane]

Debating about science i can understand, but art? We don't even do the same taijiquan forms.

Is martial training an artistic endeavor to you? To me, it is not. I think that believing it to be so is one of the problems leading to a poor understanding of martial training.

 

[Zeny]

Why would that be an external art?
In several 'internal arts there are weapons... poles, axes, swords utilized. What would be the difference?


Ok now this is where thing got dicey when you were asked to expound on some information and to be a bit more specific and your response was, "Perhaps do a google search". (this was back in post # 11)

To be more specific; using some body weight exercises as well as additional weighted motions like what the average person on an animal or agriculture farm would be doing on a day to day basis. Maybe some one doing package deliveries of 20 to 60 lbs, or maybe a different person doing some specific 20-60 or more lbs of physical fitness exercises. One does it on a day to day basis as part of their living, another does it on a day to day basis specifically to live healthier.

i once read a story that in ancient times there was this not so bright student of the martial arts. His classmates constantly belittled him as he was very slow at learning the art. So one day his teacher gave him a pole and asked him to go into the jungle and just thrust at branches whole day. Several years passed, and one day someone came and challenged the school. None of the senior students could defeat the challenger. This student was watching and he thought that the challenger did not seem to be very good, so he said let him try. As the story goes, the student easily defeated the challenger using his simple branch thrusting skills. Basically he had gotten so good at it from all those years of diligent and repetitive practice. I believe this is a good example of what constitutes an external art.

An internal art is different. Let's take for example this time the chinese sword. An internalist would not be practising the sword by repetitively doing any specific thrusting or slicing movement to gain muscle memory. Instead, when the internalist moves the sword around, he pays full attention, not to any specific technique, but rather his body external and internal balance, breathing, his mental focus on the sword etc. if he extends the sword to the right, he must make sure to adjust his balance externally (by extending his other arm and adjusting his stance) and internally (imagine balancing yourself on one foot, feels like that). The sword to the right could be at any number of positions, so each adjustment is unique, and this also varies between persons as they have different builds etc. An adjustment on a day when you are tired is also different than when you are fresh and alert.

I would not personally classify weight training as either external or internal. I would simply call it... weight training.

 

[Zeny]

Is martial training an artistic endeavor to you? To me, it is not. I think that believing it to be so is one of the problems leading to a poor understanding of martial training.

Oh yes, definitely it is an artistic endeavour. It is similar to, say english, which is also an art. Of course you have spelling, grammatical rules and so on, but good writers can produce bestsellers while bad writers can't. Also new words are added to the language every now and then.

If martial training is not an art to you, what is it? Martial science? What is the defining factor between art and science?

 

[EddieCyrax]

As Xue Sheng discussed in post #2 of this thread, these things are so inter-twined I do not see a difference between them.

It all comes down to training methodologies and what a practitioner focuses on......even then the internal focus is utilized in external movements and vise versa...external focus requires control of the internal functions....

The longer one studies any martial art all these things are realized.... IMHO....

 

[Zeny]

I think you don't actually understand what people are talking about, I put that down to English not being your first language, you are missing so many of the nuances of what people are saying and not understanding the rudeness of your own posts.
You don't want to discuss internal and external I'm afraid.

Now that last remark is just an unfair comment, coming from someone who posted many times on the thread and none of those posts touches on the topic of this thread. The google remark for the other dude was not intended to be rude, although unfortunately it came out that way. But when i was rude to you, it was wholly intentional.