External vs internal martial arts

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Zeny

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Thanks for the apology. But as it turns out, I have a rather thick skin. And sometimes I know can get in a hurry and not express myself quite how I intend.

Whether gi is an aspect of internal or internal is an aspect of gi may be debated, but if one's belief in gi or internal is strong, and especially if experienced, I think it may not be significant. Or may be very significant, depending on a particular person's belief and ability to use it. Just what I think.

I personally don't mind discussing gi as long as people are respectful. The problem is that like many things, one may believe it or not, and that belief may have to depend on what one feels within oneself, not scientific proofs. For that reason, it is hard to establish a frame of reference, and to explain something that may be experienced but difficult to describe.

To those who have been told there is no such thing as gi, and accepted that as truth, what I have said probably sounds like gobbledygook, or worse. That is their right, as is mine to believe in it. I don't think them less of a person. Of course if people become disrespectful, or speak derisively, I will probably just withdraw from the discussion.

FYI, you might want to consider if your rising to what you perceive as personal (or even real challenges) will really help you explain your beliefs, or fuel a monkey dance. There are indeed people here who would enjoy a virtual monkey dance. I only say that because it is something I have to remind myself of often.

Again, thanks for explaining yourself further.

Do you mind to share how you practise your chi to achieve the abilities you mentioned? I am really interested to know.
 

Tez3

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Especially being told to "go google it" by a person who is apparently knowledgeable on the subject. I really don't understand why anyone would make a thread about something, then act appalled when people ask them questions about said thread.

and to keep harping on at posters who question him. Not everything is about him. Admin has asked that posters be polite, to continue to make personal comments isn't good.

'A veiled snipe', we have a lot of snipe, they are seen in the wetlands here. I am a member of the RSPB, but have never seen a veiled one.
 
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Zeny

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and to keep harping on at posters who question him. Not everything is about him. Admin has asked that posters be polite, to continue to make personal comments isn't good.

'A veiled snipe', we have a lot of snipe, they are seen in the wetlands here. I am a member of the RSPB, but have never seen a veiled one.

A most useless post.
 

Tez3

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A most useless post.

You are determined to be insulting aren't you? Snipe are a UK bird, why you mentioned it in your post directed at me I have no idea. I also don't know why you take offense at any questioning, I'm actually assuming it's a carry on from the other thread where we questioned your 'no touch KO's' and techniques.
I've actually found posts on here that are educational and very interesting, yet you persist in trying to bait people into arguing with you. It's not all about you, the idea of internal and external is one that interests a lot of martial artists who don't come from Chinese styles, rather than snapping at them for asking questions it would be better to educate. Contributing to a thread means not just posting up what you know but what you don't know in the hope of answers from experienced and helpful martial artists, Google just doesn't explain properly in the way that a martial artist can.
 
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Zeny

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You are determined to be insulting aren't you? Snipe are a UK bird, why you mentioned it in your post directed at me I have no idea. I also don't know why you take offense at any questioning, I'm actually assuming it's a carry on from the other thread where we questioned your 'no touch KO's' and techniques.
I've actually found posts on here that are educational and very interesting, yet you persist in trying to bait people into arguing with you. It's not all about you, the idea of internal and external is one that interests a lot of martial artists who don't come from Chinese styles, rather than snapping at them for asking questions it would be better to educate. Contributing to a thread means not just posting up what you know but what you don't know in the hope of answers from experienced and helpful martial artists, Google just doesn't explain properly in the way that a martial artist can.

Good, only now your post starts to make some sense.
 

Tez3

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Good, only now your post starts to make some sense.

then you really didn't read my other posts before you got on your high horse..........
 
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Zeny

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then you really didn't read my other posts before you got on your high horse..........

Your other posts don't make sense to me and/or don't seem to contribute anything at all. Basically waste of thread space.
 

Tez3

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Your other posts don't make sense to me and/or don't seem to contribute anything at all. Basically waste of thread space.

Well they say G-d loves a trier and my, you are trying............
 

Xue Sheng

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That sounds to me like a veiled snipe, are you trying to provoke me to start again? I would be more than happy to, considering what I think of you, but we have been asked to stop. At least Xue Sheng posts informative things in between his criticisms of me, but your posts are pure rubbish.

Please. I posted the information because you refused to post it and other posters were still confused as to what you were talking about. And it you do not want me in your post then do not mention me. I have done my best "Grand master Zeny" to not comment on any of your posts here for awhile, so please refrain from posting sarcastic comment about me...thank you
 

Dirty Dog

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ATTENTION ALL USERS:
Please keep the conversation adult, professional, and friendly, in keeping with the TOS that you all agreed to when you created your accounts.
 

oftheherd1

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Do you mind to share how you practise your chi to achieve the abilities you mentioned? I am really interested to know.

As I said before, I believe it comes from breathing and meditation. Also acceptance that it exists and can enhance one's abilities. I also think it is not magic.
 

oaktree

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I also believe in chi, and I also believe that practising chi is absolutely essential.
As important as Qi is I feel it is not as essential compared to Jing, and Yi and Xin. No matter how much Qi you build up internally or externally, if your mind is not calm and you are using your Jing you will be like a crazy man spending all his money on things.
chi cannot be measured, seen, smelt or heard, so it would be difficult to discuss chi with someone who has never felt it or who believes it does not exist.
Well what about Tian Qi it is weather and seen, and heard. For a list of words that use Qi we can see the word can be defined, smelt(especially after someone eats onions)口气kouqi also means tone I guess when gas comes from your butt the letter changes to a P instead of a Q because I guess P comes before Q in the alphabet.
You can look here for the Hanzi
Cojak Hanzi Dictionary: Unicode/Hanzi Search: U+6C14 (气)
If i focus my chi completely in my dan tian, my body becomes especially stable (like a wall), but mobility is greatly affecte
Qinggong轻功 I guess you don't practice. I am wondering about mobility being affected as perhaps there is stagnation.
When a man has to much sex in Chinese medicine his legs are weak as he looses to much Jing.
If i focus my chi on one hand, that hand becomes especially strong, but sluggish and heavy and my movement with that hand is easily detected by the opponent
I thought when you move Qi to the hand it merges with Li giving you the word 力气 meaning strength. I don't think being strong means slow. However if you have 力气 you are not wet like a noodle but Peng.
It has come to a point where I must consciously make sure this spreading of chi is done even before first skin to skin contact with my push hands partner.
I think if you are at higher stages of Qi cultivation the Weiqi卫气 would spread even naturally now as for it expanding and contracting it depends on the focus actually there is more to it but I am lazy.
 

oaktree

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heaviness and lightness of parts of the body caused by the difference in concentration of chi can be easily demonstrated in person. The difference in your view and my view is that, as you said you believe internal is one aspect of chi, but I believe chi is one aspect of internal.
To add some, I find heaviness in the body with relations to Qi a martial context in relation to iron body type of focus, in the more health side of things the consensus is you don't want to be heavy as heavy implies blockage and stagnation. When I teach martial we talk about sinking and rooting which may seem heavy but the Qi is still flowing smoothly. We for sure do not want to be heavy in shoulder and neck or head areas.
The thing internal is one aspect of chi, but I believe chi is one aspect of internal.
I don't understand this sentence.
 
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Zeny

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To add some, I find heaviness in the body with relations to Qi a martial context in relation to iron body type of focus, in the more health side of things the consensus is you don't want to be heavy as heavy implies blockage and stagnation. When I teach martial we talk about sinking and rooting which may seem heavy but the Qi is still flowing smoothly. We for sure do not want to be heavy in shoulder and neck or head areas.
The thing internal is one aspect of chi, but I believe chi is one aspect of internal.
I don't understand this sentence.

What I mean is, let’s say I have three “internal” tools, chi is only one of them. Putting it another way, chi is a sub-set of internal.
 
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Zeny

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Please. I posted the information because you refused to post it and other posters were still confused as to what you were talking about. And it you do not want me in your post then do not mention me. I have done my best "Grand master Zeny" to not comment on any of your posts here for awhile, so please refrain from posting sarcastic comment about me...thank you

Ok, I can agree with that.
 

oaktree

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What I mean is, let’s say I have three “internal” tools, chi is only one of them. Putting it another way, chi is a sub-set of internal.
You are refering to San bao三寶 of those 3 Jing is the most important is the essence it is the foundation.
 

Kung Fu Wang

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Believe it or not I have involved with "internal vs. external" discussion for more than 20 years in another "internal CMA forum". My observation is:

Internal guys only want to talk about "push". When you mention about kick, punch, lock, throw, ground game, they will consider those as "low level". The general conclusion from those kind of discussion are "internal" can help you to develop your body. But it may not affect directly to how you may apply your MA skill. The "internal" is pretty much equal to "functional training".

For example, in all those "internal vs. external" discussions, not even a single person has addressed how "internal" can help you to execute your:

- hip throw, single leg, firemen's carry, ...
- roundhouse kick, side kick, ...
- hook punch, uppercut, ...
- wrist lock, elbow lock, shoulder lock, ...
- side mount, arm bar, leg bar, choke, ...
- ...

Since I'm not interested in "push". I soon lost interested in those discussion. Even today, I still don't understand why people are interested in "push" that much and want to devote all their life training time to develop such skill.

It's pretty much like the game that you had played when you were a kid. Your hand hold on your opponent's hand. You can move your hand any way you want. if you can make your opponent's foot to move, you win. I just don't see this kind of skill can be any useful in fighting.

 
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Xue Sheng

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Internal guys only want to talk about "push". When you mention about kick, punch, lock, throw, ground game, they will consider those as "low level". The general conclusion from those kind of discussion are "internal" can help you to develop your body. But it may not affect directly to how you may apply your MA skill. The "internal" is pretty much equal to "functional training".

I'm an internal guy, have been for more than 20 years, Taijiquan, Xingyiquan and a bit of Baguazhang...... I have no idea who you have been talking to, but it was no one I seriously trained with, not even my taiji shifu who has trained taiji and only taiji for over 50 years,. and I do not think his sifu (Tung Ying Chieh), thought kicks, kicks, punches, shuaijiao, and qinna were low level, actually, Tung Shigong was rather fond of Qinna.

Do we push? Yup, its called push hands and it is a training tool...that is all.

All internals I have trained have kicks, punches, Shuaijiao, and qinna. Admittedly not much of a ground game (if you are talking things like BJJ), but not many traditional CMA style do. And I don't know of any internal guys I have seriously trained with who look at kicks, punches, Shuaijiao, and qinna as low level, not even my shifu. However he may look at the way some apply kicks, punches, Shuaijiao and qinna as low level.....and I do to sometime.
 

oaktree

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It's not that those things are low level technique, the question internalist must ask themselves how can I apply these techniques internally with the concepts and theory. For example some use muscle and power to apply a qinna, where an internalist would apply off balance, redirect and subtle ways to apply qinna. I think there is a misunderstanding that the push is what is internal and may be some people all they feel is as martial as say internalist get but the deeper levels is making the qinna and kicks more internal and or smaller in movement
 
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