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We can also say, "When the breath relaxes, the body finds its rhythm".When the body relaxes, the breath finds its rhythm.
What if your breath cannot find its rhythm (such as slow body bend down)?
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We can also say, "When the breath relaxes, the body finds its rhythm".When the body relaxes, the breath finds its rhythm.
I saw that now.Shouldn't be a problem then
Kung Fu Wang started a similar discussion to this one on another forum (sans Five Animal Frolics) two days after starting this thread and has been quoting one of the participants of that discussion here in this discussion, for some reason.
Being familiar with that person myself, I commented to the effect that they have changed their language and phraseology of late to copy someone else's as though it were their own way of explaining things. It's a tactic they have adopted to augment their other tactics of quoting from AI and posting videos of their teacher's lessons to support their 'position'. It's kind of a peeve of mine that you're no longer having a discussion with that person, but with the opinions and understandings that they've surrogated because they can't use their own words.
If you can't explain something in plain, simple language that anyone can understand, you probably don't really understand it yourself
As to them with all the words, it's them who attempt to drag others down to their own, less-than-mediocre level of skill, experience and know-how in this thread. They have certainly taken on an air of expertise these last couple of years while taking a dump on the experiential and earned understandings of others in a generalized, passive-aggressive manner. It's quite noticeable. Still waiting for them to throw us all a bone on how to improve our kicks.
Your Taiji method do seem to consciously focus on breath, as such is it still “nature” breathing , that will say- unconsciously /automatic breathing ?The person that I quote from another forum believes, "focus on the movement or the application, letting the breath adjust naturally. Breath coordinated with the movement".
I believe we need a solid definition for what we are discussing here. Here are my definitions:
Nature breathing - constant speed inhale and exhale that has nothing to do with movement. For example, if you hold your breath, or only inhale/exhale part of your air, that's not nature breathing by my definition. In other words, "nature" does not mean you can do any way that you want to.
Chang Taiji breathing (other Taiji breathing can be different) - The body movement is coordinated with the breathing. If you breath fast (such as after heavy workout), your Taiji form speed is fast. If you breath slow (such as just wake out), your Taiji form speed is slow. The reason of doing this is to unite breathing and body movement into one. You will then feel that your breath/body is truly integrated with the nature environment.
If you don't agree with my definitions, please share your definitions so we can have good discussion here.
The main discussion in this thread is when you train your Taiji form, whether your move should follow your breathing or not. If the answer is yes, why? If the answer is no, why?
What is “rma” ?We were discussing these exact exercises 30 years ago on rma. What would you like to know?
What's your definition of "natural breathing"?Your Taiji method do seem to consciously focus on breath, as such is it still “nature” breathing , that will say- unconsciously /automatic breathing ?
Shouldn’t be any more difficult breathing that when tying one’s shoelacesWill you
- inhale when your lung is compressed, and
- exhale when your lung is expanded?
What if a move that requires you to bend forward in slow motion. You need several breaths to finish the whole move (such as doing "needle at the bottom of the sea" in slow motion)?
In Chang Taiji, we don't do "needle at the bottom of the sea" in slow motion. Because it will cause "unnatural breathing". We do it in 1 exhale.
Am I right that your "natural breathing" definition is "breathing depends on the body movement need"? When you bend forward, you will breathe differently than when you stand straight.Shouldn’t be any more difficult breathing that when tying one’s shoelaces
The kind that is not consciously manipulated / interfered by our thoughts.What's your definition of "natural breathing"?
The mind is the boss over things we consciously set to doAm I right that your "natural breathing" definition is "breathing depends on the body movement need"? When you bend forward, you will breathe differently than when you stand straight.
A slow Taiji move may force you to have multiple breaths for just 1 move. How do you solve that problem?
When you run and you breath fast, will you call that "natural breathing"? If your answer is yes, your breathing is controlled by your body movement.The kind that is not consciously manipulated / interfered by our thoughts.
Automatic breath controlled by the autonomic nervous system that controls all our inner organs would be related to natural
Of all the things that never happened, that's one of the things that never happened the most. I would remember.What is “rma” ?
I will try that later on today before my regular workout. Thanks.I'm not aware of any videos or other media that details the foundational work to such a degree that anyone can try it and understand it without any hands-on from a so-called 'teacher'. The one here is something I made up a long time ago. It will become self-evident as you work through the exercises.
The first one is pretty simple. You will need to be seated at a table or desk or whatever for step-1.
Sitting comfortably, find a point, or thing, directly in front of you and just barely within your reach. With your fully focused intent on reaching for that thing, don't.
You send out the command to reach, but you arrest the movement before it starts, then you hold it in stasis between start/stop. No tension or muscle contraction - relax while using the full force of your intent.
Step-2
Stand in front of a closed door, hand at your sides and arms loose and relaxed, and do the same thing with the intent to grasp the door knob and open the door.
You'll have to find the posture and alignment in standing to recreate what you felt while you were seated. Edging or sidling might be more natural than squared up. Not hard to do.
Continue each exercise as long as you can remain focused and full of intent. Reset yourself allowing everything to relax, and repeat each exercise doing step-1 as many times as you can, and then the same in step-2.
If you're digging it, try the exercises with the hand you didn't naturally intend to reach with.
That set of exercises is probably enough to give you a glimpse of some of the ideas involved in taiji foundational solo practice.
Pay attention to what is going on internally (how your body reacts autonomously and involuntarily) as you work through each exercise and please report your findings.
When you run you think about how to breath ?When you run and you breath fast, will you call that "natural breathing"? If your answer is yes, your breathing is controlled by your body movement.
There is nothing wrong about your definition. The only concern is by using your definition, when you do a slow Taiji move, you will force yourself to use multiple breaths to finish that 1 move. For example, you may throw 1 punch with more than 1 breath. Will you call that proper Taiji training?
Your TJQ is different and focus on the two separate things - body movement and breathing pattern, where one supposed to consciously working on merging one with the other.My major interest in this thread is trying to understand why some Taiji people when they train their Taiji form, their movement are not coordinate with their breathing.
I'm sorry dude, but you're not making a lot of sense. What is RMA and what things? Happened when? Could you explain what you mean?Of all the things that never happened, that's one of the things that never happened the most. I would remember.
I will tell you what my shifu said about breathing and taijiquan, when asked what to do, which he got from his teacher who was asked about breathing and taijiquan…..Yes you shouldFair enough. That said, let's talk breathing, man. I'm tai chi-curious.
InterestingVery similar to what I was taught at the beginning.
You can always ask what if, but I think you've done enough tai chi to know how slowly or quickly you can breathe. 20(minutes)/100(moves)/2 (inhale/exhale) is just under 10 seconds for a breath cycle (inhale/exhale). Pretty average really.What if even you may slow down your breath, you will still need more than 1 breath to finish "needle at the bottom of the sea"? Some people say they do 108 moves Yang Taiji form in 20 minutes. I'm sure they have to use more than 1 breath to finish "needle at the bottom of the sea". In other words, they have to inhale when doing that move.
My teachers never advertised or made videos. They believed that the students will come that need to be there. I began training in Wing Woo Gar Gung fu first. My Sifu encouraged us to train in both gung fu and Tai Chi. His goal was integration of Southern gung fu arms and Yang TaiChi legs but trained separately and consecutively. When training Tai Chi, the first two weeks I only stood and feel bottom of feet. Start to lift the big toe but don’t actually lift it. Same intention, no motion. Then feeling each ray of each toe. ( 4 th toe is a dead zone in most people.) eventually feeling the space between the joints. Then beginning the form he would direct us to focus on a spot on the completely white wall in front of us and focus on the intention to raise the arms but not actually raise them. Only when that intention becomes action without motion inside the bottom of the foot without tension could the arms begin to move as a result of that internal action. “The inside moves the outside, the bottom moves the top.” All this to do before ever learning the first motion. Only a tiny piece of the form itself being taught as satisfactory internal progression was observed. No mention of application until after the entire form could be completed to the Sifu’s satisfaction. Days and weeks spent trying to keep the same tone throughout countless repetitions of the form. The only encouraging words being “now do it again”. When some epiphany would come, Sifu would only say “ now what does that feel like?” Another similar exercise, our floor is polished concrete covered in slippery wax, our shoes are cotton soled slippers. The floor is a nearly frictionless surface. We had a rolling stool, we would sit on the stool and attempt to pull ourselves forward without scooting. The Sifu would sprinkle powdered dance wax mixed with ground cornmeal to reduce the friction even more. This means one must use correct posture and internal expansion and lift to maintain balance and focus. Most people cannot move the stool at all without scooting. Feeling the foot in relationship to the earth is more difficult without the full weight of the body to provide friction. Yet another exercise, a tripod with a rotating disc to stand on, a bicycle wheel and tire with a handle jutting from either side of the axle. Stand on the rotatable disc while holding the bicycle wheel horizontally in front of the body one hand on each handle jutting vertically from the axle. Now someone else gets the bicycle wheel spinning. The centrifugal force of the rotating wheel will cause the rotatable disc youare standing on to rotate in the opposite direction of the wheel in your hands. Now if you turn the bicycle wheel upside down the direction of the disc will also reverse. The exercise is to prevent the centrifugal force of the bicycle tire from rotating the disc you are standing on… This last one is a daunting proposition, one that the physics professor from HSU deemed impossible to achieve until he saw it done.Interesting
Not many IMA teachers (read; very few) have that kind of work in the foundational training. If it were otherwise, you'd see it being discussed everywhere. As it is, I've never seen it in any teacher's videos or writings. Nor have I ever seen it being discussed by regular folks posting on MA forums. Surely them with all the words would have at least mentioned it with some explicit detail to show us all up. Gee, I wonder why that is?
Anyway, in what way are the exercises similar to what you were taught? In what way is it dissimilar?