Wing Woo Gar50 11
Grandmaster
KFW quoted pretty much everyone in this thread. Who are talking about?
Eight Pieces of Brocade 八段錦 and Five Animal Frolics 五禽戏
- Thread starter Kung Fu Wang
- Start date
Wing Woo Gar50 11
Grandmaster
You are certainly worked up over it. I didn’t see anyone saying that here…
windwalker099115 146
Master of Arts
Interesting,
Can you post what you feel is the correct...
Have met people in China, and Taiwan... who know the theory, but when examined they are not really doing or following
what they "know". Some are able to understand this after interacting with them and attempt to change, comfortable in "their" practice understanding what the pracice is to them do not...
I like to see and feel what others feel are correct, always looking for a deeper understanding of the practice, even those I may not agree with or share the same view points at this point in time...
In the practice of Taiji, it can take a long time to truly understand what one is training. Many begin their journey like a traveler walking through the fog of their own mind, drawn toward distant lights in search of wisdom—unaware that the true light has always been within them.
Wouldn’t fully agree with this answer… it’s interesting how, without examples, there can be a difference of meaning through words — while with examples, we might actually be describing the same thing using different ones.
True, there are a lot of ways to describe intent (意, yì) — and most of them are just pointers.
The problem starts when the pointer becomes the focus, and the visualization replaces the experience not based on
results.
For me, intent isn’t aimed at something — it’s the function of awareness itself.
When body and breath settle, awareness fills the movement naturally.
Whether you call it Dantian, Baihui, or “one principle,” they may all be describing the same thing — awareness organizing movement from stillness.
I was once told: “Do not think of it, do not try to do it, or force it. In time, you will come to know it.”
What I’ve come to know is what I call focused awareness — awareness itself providing a feedback loop that allows the rest of the body and mind to organize around it.
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Marsha Larts
Blue Belt
Shouldn't be a problem then
Kung Fu Wang started a similar discussion to this one on another forum (sans Five Animal Frolics) two days after starting this thread and has been quoting one of the participants of that discussion here in this discussion, for some reason.
Being familiar with that person myself, I commented to the effect that they have changed their language and phraseology of late to copy someone else's as though it were their own way of explaining things. It's a tactic they have adopted to augment their other tactics of quoting from AI and posting videos of their teacher's lessons to support their 'position'. It's kind of a peeve of mine that you're no longer having a discussion with that person, but with the opinions and understandings that they've surrogated because they can't use their own words.
If you can't explain something in plain, simple language that anyone can understand, you probably don't really understand it yourself
As to them with all the words, it's them who attempt to drag others down to their own, less-than-mediocre level of skill, experience and know-how in this thread. They have certainly taken on an air of expertise these last couple of years while taking a dump on the experiential and earned understandings of others in a generalized, passive-aggressive manner. It's quite noticeable. Still waiting for them to throw us all a bone on how to improve our kicks.
Xue Sheng108 25
All weight is underside
Come on…. Taylor Swift never said “hammering the Jove out of your makiwara.”
I’m not sure she has a clue as to what a makiwara even is
Prince_Alarming114
Senior Master
No, what she actually says was 'getting down to this. sick. beat', I was paraphrasingCome on…. Taylor Swift never said “hammering the Jove out of your makiwara.”
I’m not sure she has a clue as to what a makiwara even is
Prince_Alarming114
Senior Master
Fair enough. That said, let's talk breathing, man. I'm tai chi-curious.
Wing Woo Gar50 11
Grandmaster
100%Interesting,
Can you post what you feel is the correct...
Have met people in China, and Taiwan... who know the theory, but when examined they are not really doing or following
what they "know". Some are able to understand this after interacting with them and attempt to change, comfortable in "their" practice understanding what the pracice is to them do not...
I like to see and feel what others feel are correct, always looking for a deeper understanding of the practice, even those I may not agree with or share the same view points at this point in time...
In the practice of Taiji, it can take a long time to truly understand what one is training. Many begin their journey like a traveler walking through the fog of their own mind, drawn toward distant lights in search of wisdom—unaware that the true light has always been within them.
Wouldn’t fully agree with this answer… it’s interesting how, without examples, there can be a difference of meaning through words — while with examples, we might actually be describing the same thing using different ones.
True, there are a lot of ways to describe intent (意, yì) — and most of them are just pointers.
The problem starts when the pointer becomes the focus, and the visualization replaces the experience not based on
results.
For me, intent isn’t aimed at something — it’s the function of awareness itself.
When body and breath settle, awareness fills the movement naturally.
Whether you call it Dantian, Baihui, or “one principle,” they may all be describing the same thing — awareness organizing movement from stillness.
I was once told: “Do not think of it, do not try to do it, or force it. In time, you will come to know it.”
What I’ve come to know is what I call focused awareness — awareness itself providing a feedback loop that allows the rest of the body and mind to organize around it.
Marsha Larts
Blue Belt
That's easy for you to say
What you've been up to these past 20+ years was once kind of common - 100 or more years ago. Today, it's as rare as hen's teeth. Your teacher was able to demonstrate the acme of a particular skill-set, unique in its approach and methodology.
My own understanding of how intent figures in the overall model of taiji is mostly focused on the depths of what a beginner will come to understand once they've put it into the body as a natural, spontaneous function of their testing in full-contact, open competition formats. It's fascinating and incredibly interesting in its own right, but the progression it follows is not something I'm unfamiliar with, having felt a higher level of intent 'in action' in a couple of different ways.
Marsha Larts
Blue Belt
I'm with you all the way on that. Most of the comments that have been posted regards taiji are about the movement and breath.
To get into the type of relationship breath has with movement in the kinds of work I showed in the Five Animal Frolics video is to forget about what movement is supposed to represent as a tactical, technicentric action. In order to discuss the role breath plays in that work, we have to start at the beginning. If you want to go there, it will require some 'homework', as it were, where you try some simple exercises that will go a long way to satisfying your tai chi-curiosity
OP
OP
- Thread starter
- #51
The person that I quote from another forum believes, "focus on the movement or the application, letting the breath adjust naturally. Breath coordinated with the movement".
I believe we need a solid definition for what we are discussing here. Here are my definitions:
Nature breathing - constant speed inhale and exhale that has nothing to do with movement. For example, if you hold your breath, or only inhale/exhale part of your air, that's not nature breathing by my definition. In other words, "nature" does not mean you can do any way that you want to.
Chang Taiji breathing (other Taiji breathing can be different) - The body movement is coordinated with the breathing. If you breath fast (such as after heavy workout), your Taiji form speed is fast. If you breath slow (such as just wake out), your Taiji form speed is slow. The reason of doing this is to unite breathing and body movement into one. You will then feel that your breath/body is truly integrated with the nature environment.
If you don't agree with my definitions, please share your definitions so we can have good discussion here.
The main discussion in this thread is when you train your Taiji form, whether your move should follow your breathing or not. If the answer is yes, why? If the answer is no, why?
I believe we need a solid definition for what we are discussing here. Here are my definitions:
Nature breathing - constant speed inhale and exhale that has nothing to do with movement. For example, if you hold your breath, or only inhale/exhale part of your air, that's not nature breathing by my definition. In other words, "nature" does not mean you can do any way that you want to.
Chang Taiji breathing (other Taiji breathing can be different) - The body movement is coordinated with the breathing. If you breath fast (such as after heavy workout), your Taiji form speed is fast. If you breath slow (such as just wake out), your Taiji form speed is slow. The reason of doing this is to unite breathing and body movement into one. You will then feel that your breath/body is truly integrated with the nature environment.
If you don't agree with my definitions, please share your definitions so we can have good discussion here.
The main discussion in this thread is when you train your Taiji form, whether your move should follow your breathing or not. If the answer is yes, why? If the answer is no, why?
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Prince_Alarming114
Senior Master
Sounds good, got any links? I'm all about the solo practiceI'm with you all the way on that. Most of the comments that have been posted regards taiji are about the movement and breath.
To get into the type of relationship breath has with movement in the kinds of work I showed in the Five Animal Frolics video is to forget about what movement is supposed to represent as a tactical, technicentric action. In order to discuss the role breath plays in that work, we have to start at the beginning. If you want to go there, it will require some 'homework', as it were, where you try some simple exercises that will go a long way to satisfying your tai chi-curiosity
Marsha Larts
Blue Belt
I'm not aware of any videos or other media that details the foundational work to such a degree that anyone can try it and understand it without any hands-on from a so-called 'teacher'. The one here is something I made up a long time ago. It will become self-evident as you work through the exercises.
The first one is pretty simple. You will need to be seated at a table or desk or whatever for step-1.
Sitting comfortably, find a point, or thing, directly in front of you and just barely within your reach. With your fully focused intent on reaching for that thing, don't.
You send out the command to reach, but you arrest the movement before it starts, then you hold it in stasis between start/stop. No tension or muscle contraction - relax while using the full force of your intent.
Step-2
Stand in front of a closed door, hand at your sides and arms loose and relaxed, and do the same thing with the intent to grasp the door knob and open the door.
You'll have to find the posture and alignment in standing to recreate what you felt while you were seated. Edging or sidling might be more natural than squared up. Not hard to do.
Continue each exercise as long as you can remain focused and full of intent. Reset yourself allowing everything to relax, and repeat each exercise doing step-1 as many times as you can, and then the same in step-2.
If you're digging it, try the exercises with the hand you didn't naturally intend to reach with.
That set of exercises is probably enough to give you a glimpse of some of the ideas involved in taiji foundational solo practice.
Pay attention to what is going on internally (how your body reacts autonomously and involuntarily) as you work through each exercise and please report your findings.
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Wing Woo Gar50 11
Grandmaster
Very similar to what I was taught at the beginning.
Appledog51 4
Purple Belt
We were discussing these exact exercises 30 years ago on rma. What would you like to know?
Appledog51 4
Purple Belt
It takes two people to learn kungfu. a) there has to be a teacher, and b) it has to be real. Which means if you try to teach yourself, you will run into problems. That is the key to understanding what I mean below. It's a good question.
About breathing, anyways (is that what you mean?) In Tai Chi as I've been taught, you shouldn't worry about your breathing. But what that really means is, if you don't worry about your breathing you will naturally discover the correct way to breathe. If that means sometimes you use reverse breathing, then you do that thing, but you do it because it's natural to do it, not because you are intending to utilize reverse breathing "or it won't work" etc.
OP
OP
- Thread starter
- #57
Will you
- inhale when your lung is compressed, and
- exhale when your lung is expanded?
What if a move that requires you to bend forward in slow motion. You need several breaths to finish the whole move (such as doing "needle at the bottom of the sea" in slow motion)?
In Chang Taiji, we don't do "needle at the bottom of the sea" in slow motion. Because it will cause "unnatural breathing". We do it in 1 exhale.
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Appledog51 4
Purple Belt
That's valid. So, I think of it in terms of wu de. When Tori issues a technique and uke receives it, both tori and uke must be honest. This doesn't mean they are bad or good people. It means there is a reflexive action which needs to be retrained. If a beginner tori is told to punch to the area above the danzhong (considered a safe space for light blows in chaquan), and uke executes inside middle block, tori will reflexively resist against the push of the block and must be explicitly told not to do this. The way this is trained in Tai Chi is to repeat the form many times until you "understand the technique" so that in push hands you do not act dishonestly and fight against your opponent but at the same time, you are not just complicity going along with the opponent, which is same problem but from the other direction.
Breathing works exactly the same way. If you execute a technique and you have decided to inhale or exhale at the wrong time, perhaps because I flubbed the technique or did the wrong thing. There's high chance I will be eating a punch!
So in training you can adjust both ways. In Chang Tai Chi you can perform the technique sped up. In such a case it looks remarkably like "winter chicken sits on the iron fence" from xinyi liuhe. This move is present in Chen Style taijiquan er lu, near the end of the form, but I can't remember the move number. The other way is to slow your breathing until it can coordinate with the movement. I think you can get something good with both methods, but being an exponent of 'natural breathing' ala Hu Yaozhen I would not promote either method to the exclusion of the other.
windwalker099115 146
Master of Arts
Interesting choice of picture — Bow Sim Mark, a well-known performer and teacher.
Not known for fighting, though. I may be mistaken if she is.
Your point in posting it was?
As for breathing, I ask people to breathe in through the nose and out through the mouth — not to think about it, just remember to exhale. Sometimes, as practice deepens and movements slow, people forget to breathe — unconsciously holding their breath — which creates tension in the body.
Wang Yongquan once said:
“Let the breath flow like a breeze — present but unnoticed.
When the body relaxes, the breath finds its rhythm.”
In time, that rhythm begins to harmonize with movement — expansion with outward motion, contraction with inward.
What this means is that even without visible movement, through simple contact, one can cause another to lose their root — to be drawn in or repelled out.
A precursor to understanding what sticking (粘, zhān) means, and how to use it.
OP
OP
- Thread starter
- #60
What if even you may slow down your breath, you will still need more than 1 breath to finish "needle at the bottom of the sea"? Some people say they do 108 moves Yang Taiji form in 20 minutes. I'm sure they have to use more than 1 breath to finish "needle at the bottom of the sea". In other words, they have to inhale when doing that move.
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