Eight Pieces of Brocade 八段錦 and Five Animal Frolics 五禽戏

[Same Trick60 11]

I don't understand why Taiji breathing can be any different from nature breathing.

Taiji exercise move in one long unbroken flow in a relaxed manner, that’s the only thing “forced” with the Taiji exercise, breath keeps up naturally with that flow.

Taiji exercise by name relates to the Taiji-tu the Yin/Yang, the two opposites dependable on each other, duality. Breath follow this duality too - in and out breath .

Taiji exercise by its way of performing it in one smooth flow brings the two extremes together into one, a kind of refinement of the duals interplay, bringing them to their common origin point, breath follows naturally in this refinement, in and out breath almost as indistinguishable .

 

[Kung Fu Wang115 145]

Taiji exercise move in one long unbroken flow in a relaxed manner, that’s the only thing “forced” with the Taiji exercise, breath keeps up naturally with that flow.

When you say, "breath keeps up naturally with that flow", are you saying breathing try to coordinate with the flow?

Someone defined "Taiji breathing" as:

"Taiji breathing ... it doesn’t have to be even. It can be a long inhale and short exhale, or exhale–pause–inhale, etc. ..."

Do you agree with this "Taiji breathing" definition?

 

[Same Trick60 11]

When you say, "breath keeps up naturally with that flow", are you saying breathing try to coordinate with the flow?

Someone defined "Taiji breathing" as:

"Taiji breathing ... it doesn’t have to be even. It can be a long inhale and short exhale, or exhale–pause–inhale, etc. ..."

Do you agree with this "Taiji breathing" definition?

No i don’t…..well it can happen to be so, but not through correct practice by the trained practitioner

 

[Marsha Larts]

Are you saying that Taiji breathing is not nature breathing?

In your opening post, you wrote that the exercises in the videos are interesting and asked; "What is your opinion on this?"

Instead of an opinion, I described my understanding based on the 30+ years of practice I've put into a Five Animal Frolics set, and showed my practice of that set. Instead of asking about the things I described, you want to argue about breathing while ignoring the synergistic nature of the exercises - in that the sum is greater than the parts.

The synergy then, is the internal power that is derived from focusing intent inward on the connections (Six Harmonies), and allowing the body to assume the shape of those connections while binding and stretching within the expression of the physical form of each animal. Are you interested in any of that? Because that's what it's all about.

 

[Marsha Larts]

Someone defined "Taiji breathing" as:

"Taiji breathing ... it doesn’t have to be even. It can be a long inhale and short exhale, or exhale–pause–inhale, etc. ..."

Do you agree with this "Taiji breathing" definition?

Yeah, that guy. Have you noticed the language and phraseology they're using these days? Does any of it seem familiar? They never used to talk like that.


And, no, I don't agree with their definition.

 

[Prince_Alarming114]

A good guide I found on a powerlifting website is that when you're breathing from your diaphragm, you will notice that your abdomen and thorax expand together in the same inward breath. A breathing technique I've found very useful is something called 'the tailpipe'; if you're absolutely winded and you are breathing through orifices other than your mouth, you stop and take 6-8 quick, deep, diaphragmatic breaths, then get straight on with your effort. It restores you quickly to a state where you are ready to carry on. Not only is it useful during karate class 'warmups', it serves admirably when you are dragging loads of wood up hills.

 

[Kung Fu Wang115 145]

Instead of asking about the things I described, you want to argue about breathing while ignoring the synergistic nature of the exercises - in that the sum is greater than the parts.

Thanks for sharing your experience. It's discussion. It's not argument.

My major interest in this thread is trying to understand why some Taiji people when they train their Taiji form, their movement are not coordinate with their breathing.

Someone said, " When we’re training the breath, the focus is on the breath. When we’re working on form or application, the focus shifts to the body’s structure."

I can truly understand where he is coming from. Chang Taiji may focus on one training. Other Taiji may focus on different training.

 

[Wing Woo Gar50 11]

What you have said is exactly what I have said, "Body movement is coordinated with breathing".

But I don't understand what you have said, "Taiji breathing is aware within movement". It seems to me that you said, "Taiji breathing is coordinated with movement".

I describe it this way: The motion creates the breath, the breath rides the motion.

 

[Kung Fu Wang115 145]

I describe it this way: The motion creates the breath, the breath rides the motion.

I think we are getting close to who is the boss here, breath or motion.

If "motion creates the breath", after you have run 3 miles, if you do your Taiji form, will you do your Taiji form fast (because you are breathing fast), or will you still do your Taiji form slow (you are breathing fast, but your move are slow)?

 

[isshinryuronin5 5]

I describe it this way: The motion creates the breath, the breath rides the motion.

Agree, but I'd phrase it a little differently - The motion determines the type of breath that should accompany it.

 

[Kung Fu Wang115 145]

Agree, but I'd phrase it a little differently - The motion determines the type of breath that should accompany it.

We are talking about both

- breath lead move training, and
- move lead breath training.

The question is "Should we train both?" or "Should we just train one without the other?"

When I train

- Chang Taiji, I let my breath lead my move.
- application (such as this drill), I let my move lead my breath. I will exhale 1/3 on my 1st punch, exhale another 1/3 on my 2nd punch. When my body is rotating, I inhale, I then exhale 2/3 on my 3rd punch (I always keep 1/3 air in my lung). This is not "nature breathing" by definition.

 

[Marsha Larts]

I think we are getting close to who is the boss here, breath or motion.

Intent

 

[Wing Woo Gar50 11]

Agree, but I'd phrase it a little differently - The motion determines the type of breath that should accompany it.

As you please.

 

[Appledog51 4]

My major interest in this thread is trying to understand why some Taiji people when they train their Taiji form, their movement are not coordinate with their breathing.

Usually it's because they are learning. There is a case where they are learning (whether they realize it or not) because they have not yet been trained properly. In such a case, the realization of this can go a great deal towards learning proper breathing. I think Lart's video is a great example of this. It clearly shows an advanced level of development, but there is always room for improvement or we would all just stop training! What's more, at a certain point it becomes about your goals, which can be deeply personal. So it's hard to criticize someone who has reached a certain level, there are just too many factors you don't know-- goals, attitude/wu de, health issues, and so forth.

Someone said, " When we’re training the breath, the focus is on the breath. When we’re working on form or application, the focus shifts to the body’s structure."

I can truly understand where he is coming from. Chang Taiji may focus on one training. Other Taiji may focus on different training.

If you think you are training for health and you use this as an excuse to ignore the principles of Tai Chi, you are lying to yourself. If you are not doing it properly, you aren't doing Tai Chi and you might as well just go for a walk or to the gym.

 

[Appledog51 4]

Intent

That's an easy answer, but it is given out in books because they don't mention what the intent is. Intent is nothing more than min4 (mental dilligence). Therefore, what is the intent regarding? Visualizations like in Yiquan? The application? The dantian, or even mingmen? The breath? Reverse or some other method? In through the nose? A soft white light? The Yintang or baihui? Hmm, lets be spicy.. the houding? Hmm! Focusing on the horizon? Clearing your mind? One of Yang Cheng Fu's 10 points? One of Li Yiyu's many different points (dare I say it... tensegrity?) Chen Xin's secret? Chen Xiaowang's "one principle"? Chen Zhonghua's "one thing"? There are so many options!

 

[Same Trick60 11]

Yeah, that guy. Have you noticed the language and phraseology they're using these days? Does any of it seem familiar? They never used to talk like that.


And, no, I don't agree with their definition.

Got me curious, who’s “that guy” ?

 

[isshinryuronin5 5]

There are different kinds of breathing - deep or shallow. relaxed or with abdominal tension. quick or slow. Which kind is best? I think it depends on the purpose of the breath. In combat, the purpose is to facilitate the technique. Different techniques require a different kind of breath. As a general rule faster action requires faster breathing, grappling against resistance/weight is enabled by slower breathing with abdominal tension (to provide a solid base/fulcrum), and during a lull in the action it can be slow and deep. In this respect Wing Woo Gar has the order correct IMO.

(He used "motion creates the breath" but I used a slightly different "motion determines the breath." I just thought that "determines' reflects more deliberate purpose/intent as opposed to a spontaneous "creation." A small but perhaps significant difference in connotation. But the important point is that breath reflects motion rather than visa versa. Kind of the chicken and egg thing.)

A different category is exercise where the purpose is to develop "internal" development. Sanchin kata, for example, uses slow tension breathing, even in the punches - not practical in fighting but it helps develop certain structural factors. This view seems to me to be more prevalent in CMA, but what do I know? An interesting side note: When goju founder Miyagi's teacher, Higaonna, brought sanchin from China to Okinawa it employed fast punching without dynamic tension in the technique or breathing. Miyagi changed it to the version commonly seen today, although Uechi-ryu uses the fast punching (with spear hands) and quick sharp breaths.

 

[Marsha Larts]

Got me curious, who’s “that guy” ?

The guy KFW is quoting in this thread.



And there's them here who writes all those words to tell us all how little he really knows about this topic:

It was only 2 1/2 years ago that his 'teacher' told him he could start training push hands.

2 1/2 years ago, complaining about not knowing how to develop dantian.

On MT spewing gibberish without so much as an ounce of experience, understanding, or know-how.

 

[Same Trick60 11]

The guy KFW is quoting in this thread.



And there's them here who writes all those words to tell us all how little he really knows about this topic:

It was only 2 1/2 years ago that his 'teacher' told him he could start training push hands.

2 1/2 years ago, complaining about not knowing how to develop dantian.

On MT spewing gibberish without so much as an ounce of experience, understanding, or know-how.

Ah, ok, I thought it was pointed toward someone of those famous teachers out there.

 

[Prince_Alarming114]

The guy KFW is quoting in this thread.



And there's them here who writes all those words to tell us all how little he really knows about this topic:

It was only 2 1/2 years ago that his 'teacher' told him he could start training push hands.

2 1/2 years ago, complaining about not knowing how to develop dantian.

On MT spewing gibberish without so much as an ounce of experience, understanding, or know-how.

Without wishing to be nasty, I have no idea who we're talking about, and frankly I don't care. To paraphrase Taylor Swift, while you're getting all worked up about the dirty liars and the cheats, you could have been hammering the Jove out of your makiwara.