Eight Pieces of Brocade 八段錦 and Five Animal Frolics 五禽戏

[Kung Fu Wang115 145]

Intent guides movement, qi follows, and the body moves.

Do you think this is right, or wrong?

You do your Taiji form so slow that your breathing cannot slow down enough, you have to use multiple breaths to finish 1 move (such as "needle at the bottom of the sea").

This is absolutely not permitted in Chang Taiji training. In order to avoid this to happen, Chang Taiji 108 moves only take 6 minutes (not 20 minutes).

Will you throw a punch with multiple breaths?

 

[Wing Woo Gar50 11]

Do you think this is right, or wrong?

You do your Taiji form so slow that your breathing cannot slow down enough, you have to use multiple breaths to finish 1 move (such as "needle at the bottom of the sea").

This is absolutely not permitted in Chang Taiji training. Chang Taiji 108 moves only take 6 minutes (not 20 minutes) in order to avoid this to happen.

I have done Yang long form this way to nearly 50 minutes in one of the most painful classes of my life. I would say, my form was poor, my breath was more concerned with survival.

 

[Kung Fu Wang115 145]

I have done Yang long form this way to nearly 50 minutes in one of the most painful classes of my life. I would say, my form was poor, my breath was more concerned with survival.

50 x 60 / 108 = 27.77 second per breath. Nobody can breath that slow. You must use multiple breaths for 1 move.

 

[Wing Woo Gar50 11]

Do you think this is right, or wrong?

You do your Taiji form so slow that your breathing cannot slow down enough, you have to use multiple breaths to finish 1 move (such as "needle at the bottom of the sea").

This is absolutely not permitted in Chang Taiji training. In order to avoid this to happen, Chang Taiji 108 moves only take 6 minutes (not 20 minutes).

Will you throw a punch with multiple breaths?

I commonly take 23 minutes to go through our Yang long form. Although I train now with Dr Yang Jwing Ming, I have not trained his Yang long form. A couple of training brothers of mine and I train privately with Dr Yang Jwing Ming, but we focus on Chin na and San Shou Tai Chi Chuan.

 

[Wing Woo Gar50 11]

50 x 60 / 108 = 27.77 second per breath. Nobody can breath that slow. You must use multiple breaths for 1 move.

Again, will you throw a punch or kick with multiple breath?

Training is not fighting. I do a lot of things in training I will never do in a fight. But to be fair and truthful, I take your point, I will not take multiple breaths in one punch or kick. How many breaths in a choke or a throw? How many if I step in, strike, and then lock? Punch and sweep? Such questions are too subjective to answer correctly in any case.

 

[Wing Woo Gar50 11]

Do you think this is right, or wrong?

You do your Taiji form so slow that your breathing cannot slow down enough, you have to use multiple breaths to finish 1 move (such as "needle at the bottom of the sea").

This is absolutely not permitted in Chang Taiji training. In order to avoid this to happen, Chang Taiji 108 moves only take 6 minutes (not 20 minutes).

Will you throw a punch with multiple breaths?

Control of the breath can slow the breath to match the movement. Stretching this envelope is part of the training. Remember, IMO the motion creates the breath. That means slower motion equals slower breath. There is a limit to this that can and should be trained and stretched. Think free divers.

 

[Wing Woo Gar50 11]

Control of the breath can slow the breath to match the movement. Stretching this envelope is part of the training. Remember, IMO the motion creates the breath. That means slower motion equals slower breath. There is a limit to this that can and should be trained and stretched. Think free divers.

50 x 60 / 108 = 27.77 second per breath. Nobody can breath that slow. You must use multiple breaths for 1 move.

Read what I wrote. My form was poor, my breath was concerned with survival. You see, this was adventure. You may discover a thing you didn’t know existed on an adventure. That may be a human limit. Human limits can be expanded upon through training. Your main obstacle being your ability to conceive of a thing, that sort of thinking is that which may constrain your attempts to exceed it.

 

[windwalker099115 146]

Do you think this is right, or wrong?

For you'r practice it may be the correct way.
What you’ve shown of Chang Taiji training violates many of the principles we use and follow.

That said, the point of practice isn’t to see how fast one can play the form.
At a certain stage, one may reach a point where they’re no longer even aware that they’re playing a form.


There is no distinction between the one and the doing — movement arises naturally from stillness.

You do your Taiji form so slow that your breathing cannot slow down enough, you have to use multiple breaths to finish 1 move (such as "needle at the bottom of the sea").

That’s not the way we play the form, nor how I practice.


Reading through this thread did make me check my own practice to better understand what others were mentioning.
Still, I don’t quite see the point — not being able to do “Needle at the Bottom of the Sea” on one breath has never been an issue for me, nor is it something I consciously practice to do.

This is absolutely not permitted in Chang Taiji training. In order to avoid this to happen, Chang Taiji 108 moves only take 6 minutes (not 20 minutes).

What you’ve shown of Chang Taiji training violates many of the principles we use and follow.


That said, the point of practice isn’t about how fast one can play the form —
it’s about how one can do it while following the principles that develop skill sets usable at any speed,
as the situation or need requires.

Will you throw a punch with multiple breaths?

Interesting question — gets to the core of the difference.


If intent arrives before movement, the other person is already struck by that intent, whether the body moves fast or slow.
If they can’t feel or respond to it, they get hit — regardless of form, rhythm, or how many breaths you take.

"not after touch, before touch"


In training, this is what develops ting jin (听劲) — the ability to sense intent before motion.
When that sensitivity matures, breathing, intent, and movement function as one — not separate parts of technique.

 

[Wing Woo Gar50 11]

50 x 60 / 108 = 27.77 second per breath. Nobody can breath that slow. You must use multiple breaths for 1 move.

Look up free divers, I urge you to see what a human can do in one single breath.

 

[Appledog51 4]

For you'r practice it may be the correct way.
What you’ve shown of Chang Taiji training violates many of the principles we use and follow.

A few thoughts.

Tai Chi is not neijia in the sense that neijia is not Tai Chi. An easily understandable point. But what causes great difficulty for most is that in the same way as Tai Chi is not Neijia,

Tai Chi is not the idea that the yi leads the body through the force of qi because yi leads qi and qi leads the body. It's not the training method, which is that the body leads qi.

Tai Chi is not either the idea of sensitivity -- Ting Jin, nor the idea of sticking to your opponent. Tai Chi is not the result of years of hard work and practice.

Tai Chi is not the ideas of Traditional Chinese Medicine in any of it's streams -- such as Daoist Qigong -- or whatever -- mixed with "Shaolin Martial Arts" whatever that means.

Tai Chi is not your personal pet project. You don't get to learn Tai Chi. You get to learn from a master and follow the master. You are learning what they know, not an abstract concept that you can own. Tai Chi is not something you can experiment with, add BJJ to, or make up.

Tai Chi is also not Wu De, the study of the Confucian Philosophy of the Taiji tu (hint: Tai Chi isn't daoist).

And yet paradoxically, Tai Chi is all these things.

Johnwang once wrote that to be captured by style is a mistake, and one must break free of the restraints of style. Many other people have commented that one should work with natural instincts and impulses. I'll even drop a name -- Joanna Zorya, whose "Martial Tai Chi" was an interesting attempt to "ditch" the "mysticism" of Tai Chi (ex. Chi) and get back to the martial roots. What few realize is that she just took a few wing chun and judo classes and attempted to teach those as if they were Tai Chi. That's exactly what Mr. Moy Lin-Shin did with his Liuhebafa-- he took a few Tai Chi lessons from Raymond Chung (3-6 months) and then created Taoist Tai Chi.

But the real issue here is that yes, Tai Chi is individually none of the above but paradoxically all of them, because this is kind of like a basic foundation. However, there is one thing you must have or you are not doing Tai Chi -- because, individually, all of these are actually requirements for other martial arts. Wing Chun, Xingyi, etc. all speak of these kinds of things.

But what makes Tai Chi special is the concept of peng, lu, ji, an. Without the foundation above, you can't have Tai Chi. But it's what you do with the foundation that makes it Tai Chi. Breath? Meaningless. Can we be honest and trust each other for once? Every Chinese Martial Art, every qigong, daoi, etc. all has breathwork practice. Let's be real. If you are haggling over breathwork you are worried about beginner level things. Meaning, if you can't understand breathwork easily -- forget Tai Chi, you wouldn't be able to do any kind of physical practice! In the end, breathing is just not that difficult (or, important).

There are so many more important things to focus on than the breath when trying to determine what is correct in Tai Chi. For example, standing. Every Chinese martial art has standing. Tongbei, Chaquan, Baji, Eagle Claw, you name it. It's not standing. It's Peng, lu, etc.

What this means is that if you want to call what you are doing Tai Chi, you must use Peng, Lu, Ji, An. If you cannot clearly identify Peng, Lu, Ji, An, in form and push hands, then you are categorically not doing Tai Chi. You may be learning the Tai Chi form, going in the right direction, but I think too many people take that as mastery these days.

 

[Marsha Larts]

Sounds like we some things in common. I’m very curious who was your teacher, there aren’t very many like that.

As you've said, nobody of note

I respect my Yang style teacher's privacy to a fault.

My Wu/Hao instructor said, "I can't teach you Wu's taiji, but I might be able to help you find it"

Yes, things in common. There's one thing in particular that I wanted to return to since our early experiences are so similar, but I don't want to spoil it for Prince Alarming if/when he finds it without looking for it.

 

[Marsha Larts]

Do you think this is right, or wrong?

You do your Taiji form so slow that your breathing cannot slow down enough, you have to use multiple breaths to finish 1 move (such as "needle at the bottom of the sea").

This is absolutely not permitted in Chang Taiji training. In order to avoid this to happen, Chang Taiji 108 moves only take 6 minutes (not 20 minutes).

What do you consider as breath matching a 'move'? Is it the completion of exhale at the same time as the move is completed, ending in the posture?

 

[Same Trick60 11]

I'm sorry dude, but you're not making a lot of sense. What is RMA and what things? Happened when? Could you explain what you mean?

I had to look it up since I could not understand the answer I was given - Roma - Return merchandise authorization’
Don’t know if that explain much either ??

 

[Marsha Larts]

I had to look it up since I could not understand the answer I was given - Roma - Return merchandise authorization’
Don’t know if that explain much either ??

rec.martial-arts

A now-defunct message board from the old days

 

[Kung Fu Wang115 145]

What do you consider as breath matching a 'move'? Is it the completion of exhale at the same time as the move is completed, ending in the posture?

If "move lead breath", when a move start, the inhale (or exhale start). When a move stop, that inhale (or exhale stop).

If "breath lead move", when an inhale (or exhale) start, the move start. When an inhale (or exhale) stop, that move stop.

 

[Marsha Larts]

If "move lead breath", when a move start, the inhale (or exhale start). When a move stop, that inhale (or exhale stop).

If "breath lead move", when an inhale (or exhale) start, the move start. When an inhale (or exhale) stop, that move stop.

Ok, thanks

So in form practice, the move starts from the posture that precedes the transition to the next posture?

 

[Kung Fu Wang115 145]

So in form practice, the move starts from the posture that precedes the transition to the next posture?

To be concrete,

- Open position stand is 2 moves (up and down).
- diagonal fly is 1 move.
- Peng is 1 move.
- Lu is 1 move.
- Ji is 2 moves (forward and backward).
- An is 1 move.
- double pulling is 2 moves (left and right).
- single whip is 1 move.
- defending hand is 1 move.
- white crane flaps wing is 1 move.
- left brush knee is 1 move.
- ...

 

[Marsha Larts]

To be concrete,

- Open position stand is 2 moves (up and down).
- diagonal fly is 1 move.
- Peng is 1 move.
- Lu is 1 move.
- Ji is 2 moves (forward and backward).
- An is 1 move.
- double pulling is 2 moves (left and right).
- single whip is 1 move.
- defending hand is 1 move.
- white crane flaps wing is 1 move.
- left brush knee is 1 move.
- ...

Got it, thanks

 

[Same Trick60 11]

I had to look it up since I could not understand the answer I was given - Roma - Return merchandise authorization’
Don’t know if that explain much either ??

“Roma” was auto spelled for my writing “rma”

 

[Same Trick60 11]

I do. Inhale for every 2 steps and exhale for every 2 step.

I never considered breath rhythm when running, I really liked cross country running when I was younger, lots of uneven terrain for every gait to constantly adapt to, tricky to find the flow, it’s kinda “being in the zone” thing when the running flow