When children have higher "rank" than an adult (yes, I am counting Poom belts), what is the dynamic in your school? I would hope there is an appreciation of training on one level but a greater understanding that children should respect their elders. Should children line up behind the adults in a show of respect? Or should position in class be about the belt color?
Dynamics of respect: Kids with higher belts than adults
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andyjeffries
Senior Master
In our class we have quite a few black belts and as of this time no poom grades. However, there are plenty of children higher ranked than some adults and they line up ahead of them in class. We won't have under 16s teaching others, but have no issue with a 16 year old teaching adults.
At the end of the day, the children are due a certain amount of respect from their lower-grade adults for the time they've spent training and learning. It doesn't mean that age means nothing (we wouldn't tolerate rudeness from a child to an adult, then again we wouldn't tolerate rudeness the other way either), just that Taekwondo places a certain importance on rank and testing so we line up in rank order, regardless of age.
At the end of the day, the children are due a certain amount of respect from their lower-grade adults for the time they've spent training and learning. It doesn't mean that age means nothing (we wouldn't tolerate rudeness from a child to an adult, then again we wouldn't tolerate rudeness the other way either), just that Taekwondo places a certain importance on rank and testing so we line up in rank order, regardless of age.
dancingalone
Grandmaster
We separate classes/seminars along age ranges like I imagine most here do. The adult class is age 15 and above (used to be 16+), and rank determines order of lineup. Poom belts are treated just like regular adult black belts for this purpose. We don't have adults training in the Tiny Tigers or kids' classes, so this never comes up there.
Edit: I do use poom belts a little differently than KKW guidelines, so FYI.
Rank is handled little bit differently in teaching. You have to be approved personally by me, the head instructor and owner, before you can lead a class in exercises or before you can be asked to show another student something. And we have enough knowledgeable adult black belts at my school to where I haven't had the need to authorize a minor, however skilled/competent he may be, to do so yet.
I suppose I will cross that bridge when I have to. Haven't had to yet. Note: of course, I don't mind a junior student in rank (but not necessarily age) asking a higher ranked student, even though he is a child, for quick clarification on something minor, like the correct move in a form, etc.
As an adult (38) of low rank, with may higher ranks in the classes I attend. I always allow for the higher earned ranks even if it means checking my pride and personal ego at the door. And take advice and direction from someone much younger than me, but has earnt their place in the dojo. (it can feel "strange" when it happens though)
I may be talking about a karate dojo, but I would suspect the same would hold for a dojang.
I may be talking about a karate dojo, but I would suspect the same would hold for a dojang.
chrispillertkd
Senior Master
If a child has earned a specific rank and classes line up according to rank then why wouldn't they line up where their rank indicates? Now, if you had junior ranks for all ranks, not just poom vs. dan, then you might have them line up seperately. But that would still raise the question of why does one person's rank count more than another person's simply because one is an adult and one isn't? If a child's rank isn't "worth" as much as an adult's of the same rank then why does the child have it in the first place? And should all poom ranks line up in a less senior position than yudanja?
My instructors' school has everyone train together, everyone is responsible for the same material, and in almost 27 years I've never seen anyone complain that they were lining up behind someone younger than they are. Of course, when it comes to respect the example is set to be respectful to everyone regardless of rank, sex, or age so there's really no motivation to view others' rank as any sort of issue. There are different requirements for junior memebrs when it comes to breaking for tests, and their level of power generation will, of course, be less when performing techniques. But there's not really any complaint about kids getting black belts simply because they generally don't get black belts. Training time for ranks tends to lengthen if someone is either very young or very old. They simply need more time to become proficient in what they're doing at either extreme. And I can't remember the last time someone promoted to I dan who wasn't at least a teenager. There have been a few who have but they were quite talented and by the time they tested were quite good.
So, in summary, who cares what age they are? If their rank indicates they line up in front of me they do. I have other things to worry about (like trying improve my own techniques).
Pax,
Chris
My instructors' school has everyone train together, everyone is responsible for the same material, and in almost 27 years I've never seen anyone complain that they were lining up behind someone younger than they are. Of course, when it comes to respect the example is set to be respectful to everyone regardless of rank, sex, or age so there's really no motivation to view others' rank as any sort of issue. There are different requirements for junior memebrs when it comes to breaking for tests, and their level of power generation will, of course, be less when performing techniques. But there's not really any complaint about kids getting black belts simply because they generally don't get black belts. Training time for ranks tends to lengthen if someone is either very young or very old. They simply need more time to become proficient in what they're doing at either extreme. And I can't remember the last time someone promoted to I dan who wasn't at least a teenager. There have been a few who have but they were quite talented and by the time they tested were quite good.
So, in summary, who cares what age they are? If their rank indicates they line up in front of me they do. I have other things to worry about (like trying improve my own techniques).
Pax,
Chris
granfire
Sr. Grandmaster
BBs are Mr or Mrs <last Name>
Line up is according to rank. Which come mostly into play at belt awards.
But higher rank is higher rank.
After all, my instructor is several years my junior, as are many of his assistants.
It is rather simple: respect earns respect.
I respect their skill and knowledge in the art, they in turn respect my knowledge and experience in life. Never saw a kid pulling rank on an adult, never had an adult pull age on a youngster.
Line up is according to rank. Which come mostly into play at belt awards.
But higher rank is higher rank.
After all, my instructor is several years my junior, as are many of his assistants.
It is rather simple: respect earns respect.
I respect their skill and knowledge in the art, they in turn respect my knowledge and experience in life. Never saw a kid pulling rank on an adult, never had an adult pull age on a youngster.
Thousand Kicks
Green Belt
I have always been taught that you line up by rank first then age. So, all first dans would line up in front of gups, but the oldest 1st dan would be in front (regardless of time at rank). I think when people undersatnd the process they don't get hung up on a 16 year old being in front of them.
My teacher does make it a point to try and not have significantly younger pupils instruct older pupils. I don't think it would be an issue, but this is done as a precaution to avoid any such situations.
Remember, one of the primary tennants we learn in the martial arts is respect. This really shouldn't be an issue anywhere. I spent several years studying modern arnis (a stickfighting style) and I was told that the creator of the style, Remy Presas, had a philosophy that if you only know one thing you can teach that one thing to somebody else. If somebody is sincerely trying to teach you something, you can be respectful at the least. If you don't agree or don't like it you don't have to use it.
My teacher does make it a point to try and not have significantly younger pupils instruct older pupils. I don't think it would be an issue, but this is done as a precaution to avoid any such situations.
Remember, one of the primary tennants we learn in the martial arts is respect. This really shouldn't be an issue anywhere. I spent several years studying modern arnis (a stickfighting style) and I was told that the creator of the style, Remy Presas, had a philosophy that if you only know one thing you can teach that one thing to somebody else. If somebody is sincerely trying to teach you something, you can be respectful at the least. If you don't agree or don't like it you don't have to use it.
Students of all ages should show respect to all, regardless of age. If the school's policy is to line people up by rank, then age shouldn't be a consideration. In any case, family classes not withstanding, this is usually not an issue.
In regards to ranks vs. age, Chris' post is excellent and I will simply refer you to it.
Why do you ask? Is this an issue at the school where you train?
We line up the same way.
Being 20, when training with other adults I offer advice in 3 situations only.
1) when the subject at hand is something I know very well
2) when I'm paired off and practicing something with someone who isn't that comfortable with it.
3) when I'm directly asked and the instructor leading the session isn't readily available
and in those situations, I usually say "this is how I do it".
I've been blown off before by older color belt ranks. My reaction to that is a big part of my current "self improvement" project.
I believe this is not an issue if the school adopts some reasonable measures regarding gradings, junior ranks and class types.
Respect should never be a problem, too, as most should agree that everyone must respect and be respected equally.
But we're also taking about concrete and physical things like lining up and having a more senior student helping other students.
I couldn't show up in time in the mcdojo threads, but I believe there are average schools with "mcdojo practices" (sometimes adopted even kind of forcefully). The one where I train is just like that.
So while I wouldn't care about the lining up thing, sometimes it becomes ridiculous when the 13/14 yo boy with a full black belt (instead of a junior one - and with less training hours than some adults in 1st and 2nd geup) serves as reference to less senior and but older and more skilled students just because of the color of his belt. Things become even more awkward when that same young black belt is asked to lead warming ups and stretches when he himself can hardly do them, just because he has received his black belt earlier than some adults or older teenagers.
As I said, this shouldn't be a problem if the school handles black belts in a reasonable manner (ie. not asking only for time criteria, but also skill - although unlikely to happen, would be no problem with a highly skilled youngster), and the adoption of junior (poom) black belts would also make things a little less complicated. But are all schools like that? Mine isn't, and I wouldn't leave it to the others in my city, that usually fit much more the mcdojo label.
Enviado de meu GT-I9300 usando o Tapatalk 2
Respect should never be a problem, too, as most should agree that everyone must respect and be respected equally.
But we're also taking about concrete and physical things like lining up and having a more senior student helping other students.
I couldn't show up in time in the mcdojo threads, but I believe there are average schools with "mcdojo practices" (sometimes adopted even kind of forcefully). The one where I train is just like that.
So while I wouldn't care about the lining up thing, sometimes it becomes ridiculous when the 13/14 yo boy with a full black belt (instead of a junior one - and with less training hours than some adults in 1st and 2nd geup) serves as reference to less senior and but older and more skilled students just because of the color of his belt. Things become even more awkward when that same young black belt is asked to lead warming ups and stretches when he himself can hardly do them, just because he has received his black belt earlier than some adults or older teenagers.
As I said, this shouldn't be a problem if the school handles black belts in a reasonable manner (ie. not asking only for time criteria, but also skill - although unlikely to happen, would be no problem with a highly skilled youngster), and the adoption of junior (poom) black belts would also make things a little less complicated. But are all schools like that? Mine isn't, and I wouldn't leave it to the others in my city, that usually fit much more the mcdojo label.
Enviado de meu GT-I9300 usando o Tapatalk 2
SahBumNimRush
Master of Arts
All junior ranks address senior ranks as "Sir or Mam," and in the 28 years I have been practicing, there has never been an issue with respect when it comes to junior/senior and age. We line up by rank, if there are equal ranks, then it is by age. Children, regardless of rank are taught to respect the adults, since with age comes experience, and with experience often comes wisdom.
SahBumNimRush
Master of Arts
I should add, that my classes are not separated by age. It is all ages, as we have many families that participate together. However, I do separate classes by rank. I have high rank helping me teach the beginner classes (9th geup-4th geup), and then they get their workout in during the advanced class (3 geup and up). Right now that works for me. It would be different if I had more adults in my class, but right now I mainly have children and teens with only a hand full of adults thrown in to the mix.. .
**Man I wish had more adults!**
**Man I wish had more adults!**
Same issues in my school.
We do not split classes by age.
Students line up in order of rank. Everybody is expected to be respectful of everybody, and it's never been an issue.
Our dojang rules do stipulate that adults and those of higher rank are Sir/M'am/Mr/Mrs/etc, but nobody is going to get sent to the corner for a timeout if they call me Mark during class.
Wihtin a given belt rank, the senior student (by default) is the one who has held that rank longer. Between rank testings, students can move up within their belt by challenging the person above them. They do a sort of mini-test and whoever does best is then the higher rank. The competition this generates sometimes helps motivate students. Age makes no difference in the challenge process.
Students line up in order of rank. Everybody is expected to be respectful of everybody, and it's never been an issue.
Our dojang rules do stipulate that adults and those of higher rank are Sir/M'am/Mr/Mrs/etc, but nobody is going to get sent to the corner for a timeout if they call me Mark during class.
Wihtin a given belt rank, the senior student (by default) is the one who has held that rank longer. Between rank testings, students can move up within their belt by challenging the person above them. They do a sort of mini-test and whoever does best is then the higher rank. The competition this generates sometimes helps motivate students. Age makes no difference in the challenge process.
ralphmcpherson
Senior Master
We have separate childrens classes, but occasionally kids will roll up to the adults class or vice versa as its not a hard and fast rule. Kids line up in order of rank on the left side of the hall and adults line up on the right side. Kids are always lower down the pecking order than adults, irrespective of rank.
Just injecting something to think about: we are a small karate dojo/group that has ties to other dojos/students in the school and we don't wear rank. However, no matter who flies in to study, or shows up, we usually line up according to SENIORITY of student in relation to the sensei teaching. For example, there might be some 5th dans in the group that day, but someone that hasn't trained for several years will line up lower down the line, without much discussion, in deference to a much younger 3rd dan that has trained regularly for the past few years under sensei. Another example: the head of the system may show up, and while there is some deference to the students of the sensei hosting the gathering...the lineup tends to be senior students of the visiting teacher vs 'rank'. And while seniority and rank usually go hand in hand, it is obvious at times that skill level doesn't seem to match rank...
It does make me think that ranking is forced on people to avoid hard feelings of 'who is more important to sensei'.
It does make me think that ranking is forced on people to avoid hard feelings of 'who is more important to sensei'.
Gnarlie
Master of Arts
Regardless of rank, time training and age, if someone is mature and knows their onions, then they deserve respect. More so if they can communicate those onions to others.
I find rank, time training and age are only anecdotally linked to depth of understanding and teaching ability, making all three fairly redundant in judging who deserves respect from the outset.
It's obvious from someone's behaviour and knowledge if they deserve your respect.
I try to give everyone my respect, unless they give me a reason no to.
Gnarlie
I find rank, time training and age are only anecdotally linked to depth of understanding and teaching ability, making all three fairly redundant in judging who deserves respect from the outset.
It's obvious from someone's behaviour and knowledge if they deserve your respect.
I try to give everyone my respect, unless they give me a reason no to.
Gnarlie
Once again, why is this post in the TKD forum, i see nothing specific to TKD here, besides you including poom belts. Is it that you only care about this as it concerns TKD, or do you honestly believe that TKD is the only martial art with kid black belts?
